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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:43 pm 
Master of the Order
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Sithborg wrote:

+1. Mira cannon has force sense. I'll take that 54 points.


As long as the vong player remembers that Mira has Froce Sense, it's not that big of a problem. Either way you have to play Cad as if he has no stealth at all in that match-up. Whether you make him lose stealth due to Mira or make him lose Super Stealth due to Bastilla (but OR still has accurate shooters) - it's essentially the same. You can't leave LOS to anyone. Force sense and Bastillas ABM can't touch the rest of the squad, they just laugh at it.

Chicago was the worst Jake has done with that squad, but Scott I don't think you give yourself enough credit. You've been playing Eric, Lou and Jason so long it's done 2 things. It's made you think you're not as good as you are because they might beat you 6 out of 10 times. But you have to factor in that they're 3 of the best around. The second thing is that playing the best makes you better.

PS - bringing in a Rakghoul is BRILLIANT!


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:18 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
PS - bringing in a Rakghoul is BRILLIANT!


And fun. Chicago did a lot for my confidence in my playskill (seriously, 2-2 going against Jake, Matt P., Bill, and then Ben (buttcabbage)). If I could play somewhat regularly, I think I could sharpen myself to top tier status. Possibly.

I think it really depends on the OR build as well. They mention Bastilla, but two very different OR squads have won, with Mira Cannon being a third that has done well. I can see the Mira Cannon not doing so well, due to Mira having pretty much one round to take out Cad Bane, then dies. I had a bit more HP available, especially with the Rakghouls (having Cad Bane waste one turn to kill 0 points was very helpful), whereas I think the more JBM version could to pretty well. Depending on saves (stupid Jarael can't make a Thud or Poison save), that is a lot of HP to go through, and a lot of bombs to waste, and Cad does struggle against high Def non-uniques.

Which brings up a good question: what is the best OR build to use rignt now?

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:20 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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I dont think the mira cannon is top tier but that 130 damage is really annoying.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:03 am 
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racks are amazing idea vs bombs

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:20 am 
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Anistap? No I think I'll wait to see that prove itself before I say that's the best buck build. Skybuck dominated last year, I'm not sure why it hadn't this year. Nom bombs and cad is interesting. I haven't played against it so I can't speak to how good it is. I'm intreged by it.

The best OR build? Hmm atton and revanchist is good, jbm swarm is good too. Both have their advantages. I'm a bigger fan of the jbm swarm personally

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:52 am 
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Weeks wrote:
Anistap? No I think I'll wait to see that prove itself before I say that's the best buck build. Skybuck dominated last year, I'm not sure why it hadn't this year. Nom bombs and cad is interesting. I haven't played against it so I can't speak to how good it is. I'm intreged by it.


funny you mention the two. Skybuck has taken a hit do to the return of Nom Bombs.

Lou's Anistap squad is a sight to behold. Games last about 20 minutes


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:25 pm 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
I dont think the mira cannon is top tier but that 130 damage is really annoying.


I took 4th place with it in KY. Beating Alvey playing a snowspeeder squad. So, I think it is in the top 5. I did run into problems with NR Han GH / Mara. Lost to it in the last round of swiss. We were both unbeaten. Played much better against it in the playoffs. So a few more matches of practice would have helped out.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:12 pm 
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LESHIPPY wrote:
jonnyb815 wrote:
I dont think the mira cannon is top tier but that 130 damage is really annoying.


I took 4th place with it in KY. Beating Alvey playing a snowspeeder squad. So, I think it is in the top 5. I did run into problems with NR Han GH / Mara. Lost to it in the last round of swiss. We were both unbeaten. Played much better against it in the playoffs. So a few more matches of practice would have helped out.


And I placed 5th in KY with it, losing to Les 1st round (made a major mistake, or it would have been a pretty tough game).
Beat a Skybuck squad, with a few key rolls going in my favor.
Les is clearly a much better player than I though. Plus, I've lost every game I've ever played against Alvey. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:50 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Sorry that doesnt mean its top tier. I dont think my Gungan/Rex squad was top tier in 2009 and it took second at a regional. My Arica squad that took 2nd in Chicago was not top tier. I dont even think my Skybuck with Jar Jar was top tier and that won a regional.
Mira Cannon is tier 2 sorry it just is no matter what you do.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Well in my case (I'm not very good) I think it shows potential in a really good player's hands.
That's all I meant. I'm no expert by a long shot. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:14 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Right now the meta is such that there are a lot of tier 1.5-2 squads that can absolutely win large tournaments if their bad matchup(s) don't show up. Solo charge is so strong because it really doesn't have any roll over and die matchups. Overall it is a pretty good meta - not rock paper scissors (which is frustrating as hell because blowouts aren't enjoyable on either side of the table), but with a larger component of predicting what you will face and preparing accordingly than before.

The yammosk and Pellaeon are very strong in that context because they give you the ability to adjust on the fly above and beyond the standard Lobot reinforcements, especially in the case of Pellaeon where you make your choice after seeing what your opponent brings in, knowing what map you're playing on, and even getting to review everyone's deployment! Jaster Mereel is also strong because the range of available Mandos lets you bring in a gunslinger for override, a quartermaster for attack boost, scout for more firepower, black ops to cancel Dodonna, and so on. The amount of flexibility and variance you can build into a squad has skyrocketed.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:54 pm 
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Top tier is always an arbitary distinction in any case. People dismissed old school B&B ages ago as top tier but there it was in the finals last year.

Perception is often reality with squad builds and people won't play certain squads because they think they won't work. There is also something to the notion that people won't run something because its not their play style or they don't like the stigma or they want to try new stuff out and come up with something new. As a result some of the regionals can give false estimates because not all the best squads are played all the time. I think Solo charge made one appearance and there were a few regionals with no lancers to be seen.

In anycase i'm a bit out of the loop with the competitive scene seeing as i've managed to miss every single regional this year. My main competitive experiences has revolved around trying to find something to deal with a high activation Lancer squad and usually finding out that counter strategies don't work.

I believe the Seperatists hold the top spot because of thier insane range with the lancer and the amount of tayloring they can bring it. They have a lot of tricks and a very well positioned to use masses of activations, MTBs (with MTB counter) and big guns. There are a number of great lancer builds and i think Tim has run the gamut of those not used by Jason.
The lancer has so much to offer, it can go 48 squares in a round, it flies can be made to twin and can be boosted easily to +18s while it goes about. It crushes activations even harder than Yobuck forcing you into a daunting dis-advantage but the start of turn two. I'd call it a gatekeeper because it takes sooo many squads out of the running but i think calling it a gatekeeper doesn't do some of the builds justice. It can beat any squad IMO and when run by an experienced lancer player it probably will.
But there-in lies the rub. The lancer isn't easy to play and there is a steep learning curve. You need to realise what you are trying to do and what your opponent is trying to do in order to bring in the pieces you need to beat the bad matchups. However, the tayloring is there to bring a bad match up to the level where you can beat it.

Next up is tough to pick because of how DotF impacted the meta. The figures (and the choice of maps and scoring) that were brought in altered the impact of virtually every faction save the seperatists. There are some figs that might have troubled the lancer but they tend to be viable in lesser builds or are taken out by other factions leaving the sep lancer to crush those left.

Republic i'd say has the next spot because it can actually keep up with the lancer and has the survivability to do it. It also can destroy high activation build if it can get to the source. The problem is that lancers generally have greater range. Skybuck is tough still and there are variants of Yobuck swaps that can all hold their own. Yobuck/panaka/qui/Stap has been around for a couple of years but lou's adaption with Yularen is quite divine. Plays fast and has lots of HP but its got some bad match ups against Vong, rebels, and NR. Empire can give it fits also because of activation advantage and the sheer power of opportunsit handmaidens or Bane together with MT.

Empire are still a favorite for some. Whether its bane swap or Echani handmaiden swarm. I still think they lose to the lancer because of the low HP and it struggles to out activate some of the high activation lancer squads.

NR Not a lot has happened to them with DotF. Jaina is interesting but Mara is the better killer and so the forward progress from a year ago is minimal. Strong disruptive and high activations with Ganner is its most powerful base. Against the lancer though your gonna be hard pressed to keep your door control intact.

Rebels - they suffer against some of the minor factions (OR particulally and vong perhaps due to Yammosk) because of their low HP and their dependence on CE's but they have so much tricks and such a variety of choice it just takes a bit of thought to produce insane synergy and huge activations. My guess is that people have strayed away fromt eh rebels due to burn out but they are a top tier faction and probably will be a main stay at gen con time.

the minor factions, in my view, are still minor although they have much better chances since DotF

Vong can trouble a lot but, as has been pointed out, run quite slow.
Sith have a nice Revan/exar thing going shown at several regionals by Ben.
OR have some nice tricks and Mando deathshots give them some opportunities but they are often priced out of the top game. The curious nature of the regionals i don't think has really put them through the ringer.
They suffer from reliance on uggies and R7s for door control and when you have squads that can destroy these with ease it leaves doors getting locke din your face.

tough times

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:30 pm 
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Well Tim thank you for the vote of confidence on my vong build. I was wary of it at first but the more i got to play around with I really enjoyed it. But I do find it kind of funny cause Peter and drew (my 2 non competative friends) have told me numorous times that I make good vong squads and that was before dotf. I have always thought the vong got royaly screwed in this game and so I took it upon myself to play all kinds of vong squads just to see how good they can be. So Tim thanx again for the mention of my squad. In my defense I played like crap at the Chicago regionals, more so than any tourny I can remember I made critical errors all tourny. The rakghoul was a brilliant idea that I did not see coming so yes it through me off guard. That's all I really have to say.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:33 pm 
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This is a very interesting thread and very informative for someone who has aspirations of eventually becoming a competent competitive player, like myself. So I thank everyone for the input, and am absorbing it all like a sponge! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:03 am 
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Weeks wrote:
He will be rolling a bunch of dice and you'll be walking around the store looking at comics while everyone else finishes.


One of the funniest word pictures I've read in a long time. And to think before GenCon last year I thought you were this quiet, introspective guy.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:37 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
funny you mention the two. Skybuck has taken a hit do to the return of Nom Bombs.

Lou's Anistap squad is a sight to behold. Games last about 20 minutes


It's basically what James won the CA regional with last year and people didn't seem to take it too seriously. (Understandable, we're pretty isolated out here, and it wasn't particularly large turnout.) But it smoked my Skybuck squad by round two and then it was just mop-up. We were done in under a half hour. It was my only loss.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:40 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Another thing about the lancer is that they aren't easy to get a hold of. Obviously someone who really wants to play it can buy, trade, or borrow one or two but a lot less people have it "in their box" where it might grab hold of their interest and get played one fine day. As Deri said, you can't just read that it's good on the Internet and bring it to a tournament the next week. Lancer be tricky to play, especially when it is the main threat in a squad with very few attackers.

I also think that Spynet, Ice Citadel, and Smuggler's Base are very lancer-friendly, which has helped tilt the meta towards lancer squads as well.

NickName wrote:
It's basically what James won the CA regional with last year and people didn't seem to take it too seriously. (Understandable, we're pretty isolated out here, and it wasn't particularly large turnout.) But it smoked my Skybuck squad by round two and then it was just mop-up. We were done in under a half hour. It was my only loss.

I played against that squad the first round of Swiss at Gencon and beat it with my bodyguard-themed Yobuck squad. Being able to direct Anistap's damage away from Rex and Yobuck was the key. It definitely impressed me though, especially because it hadn't seemed that good from reading about it on Bloomilk. Good luck beating Solo charge, though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Trade Stap for Mara and then use yobuck to just run through disruptive to the other side a few times and it should be a decent matchup. Not the easiest but certainly not the be all end all I wouldn't think. Woould probably depend on map and player skill. Yobuck is kinda like lancer in you aren't going to be able to just read about it and then play it in the big tourney a week later.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:44 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
Trade Stap for Mara and then use yobuck to just run through disruptive to the other side a few times and it should be a decent matchup. Not the easiest but certainly not the be all end all I wouldn't think. Woould probably depend on map and player skill. Yobuck is kinda like lancer in you aren't going to be able to just read about it and then play it in the big tourney a week later.

Thats what I did for the WI regional last year lol. I never really played yodabuck before that. Well I did play against him a lot trying to figure out how to play the lancer without gg dac last year.


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