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 Post subject: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:23 pm 
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So with Gencon around the corner this might be a good time to start thinking about whats good and whats better. Here's my breakdown

#1 Solo charge. Mara kills your main dude and you have to pick whether to kill her and lose all your other dudes or try and run into disruptive and attack mice and let her keep killing stuff. Its a rock and hardplace situation most games. It's not unbeatable just really hard to beat and thats why its #1


#2 Lancer. If you don't know how your team will handle lancer/if your opponent knows how to handle lancer, then look out. He will be rolling a bunch of dice and you'll be walking around the store looking at comics while everyone else finishes. Lancer doesn't need a direct counter to be beaten just most of the time you have to consider how you will play against it. That fact alone makes it a good gatekeeper of sorts.


#3 Thrawn + Pelleaon. Remember how thrawn and pelleaon were really cool characters in the books?..... ya same thing in minis. Thrawn makes everybody good at killing stuff, pelleaon makes jedi bad at killing you. There are several combinations of this squad and most of which are good. once someone comes up with the best combo ill post it.

#4 Skybuck. Look at the threads from last year for why its good. It still is all of those things.

#5 Bastilla. Ya Old Freaking Republic is good. Bastilla hates your CE's and wants you to know it. OR packs a ton of hard to kill dudes and runs them right at you. If you cant kill them they surround you and beat on you till your dead. This strategy is completely differant from the other top squads who are much more surgical in their strikes. OR just runs at you and laughs when your ce's dont work.


Other notables.

Rebels. Just because

Atris and handymaidens same as TBSV was last year lots of damage little tiny ammounts of HP.

ANy other opinions?

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:31 pm 
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This is a bit of a sideline to the conversation; I assume people have already thought about this, and there may even be a solution already planned in Renegades and Rogues. I generally think Bastila is great, but one of the most unfortunate interactions in the meta, from what I can see, is that she cancels out the Mandalorians, who are reliant on CEs such as twin and death-shots. Is there going to be a way around this at some point?


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:37 pm 
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TheHutts wrote:
This is a bit of a sideline to the conversation; I assume people have already thought about this, and there may even be a solution already planned in Renegades and Rogues. I generally think Bastila is great, but one of the most unfortunate interactions in the meta, from what I can see, is that she cancels out the Mandalorians, who are reliant on CEs such as twin and death-shots. Is there going to be a way around this at some point?


Bring in a czerka with lobot against her and shoot her melee dudes with your dudes with guns. Mandos should win that game.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:51 pm 
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Yeah, Gunsmiths and Scouts with the Czerka. No CEs required. Maybe a Jedi Hunter for good measure.
Boba is good even without the CE, but pricey.
RaR is going to help with the Sniper - another Czerka option.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:50 am 
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Pretty much agree with your list. The main reason I think NR is probably the default number 1 is that it has the fewest really bad matchups with the other big squads. Bastila isn't a huge deal because NR squads tend to be the big-time squads that are least reliant on commander effects. Skybuck is tough against everything, but at least you can disrupt the momentum, and the NR is tough enough to go toe to toe with big melee. Against Empire, Pelleon obviously makes Mara worse, but Han makes Thrawn worse. Against Lancer, at least you can disrupt the thing, and NR characters can take a few hits, and with the movement breakers you can cross the map pretty quickly.

Every other big squad has a matchup that's pretty ugly (with Bastila I want no part of Pelleon; with Lancer I wouldn't want to see a Bastila/Seer squad; blah blah blah). This is, by the way, not me saying that NR is a guaranteed win or anything like that--they can lose plenty--but I don't think NR is as matchup dependent as some of the other big squads, and that's a big deal.

So here's a question: why have Rebels dropped so far down everyone's list? Is it just fear of Bastila b/c Rebels are such a CE-dependent faction? Does everyone just want to be the cool kid figuring out how to win with something other than what won last year?


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:12 am 
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Using the Czerka against Bastila and O/R would be a way around losing your Twin, however a lot of Bastila squads have Mira with accurate and she would be going for the Czerka first I would guess since the Czerka has to travel with those she is trying to help.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:49 am 
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WacoBlaze wrote:
Using the Czerka against Bastila and O/R would be a way around losing your Twin, however a lot of Bastila squads have Mira with accurate and she would be going for the Czerka first I would guess since the Czerka has to travel with those she is trying to help.

Its really not that hard to hide the Czerka did it enough times when Boba Merc/Boba BH were around when I was trying to play Vigos.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:14 am 
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buttcabbge wrote:
So here's a question: why have Rebels dropped so far down everyone's list? Is it just fear of Bastila b/c Rebels are such a CE-dependent faction? Does everyone just want to be the cool kid figuring out how to win with something other than what won last year?



Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. I've played in two regionals for a total of 10 games and never faced off against one rebel squad. Regionals are a great way to see what's being played and tested out, but I don't think it's a true representation of the meta. Once the Championship rolls around here in August, I think we'll see Rebels once again in the top 8. I still think they are a viable top 5/6 squad...hell...it's still the holding championship faction.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:17 am 
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Rebels just seem to have a lot more bad matchups now. Bastilla squads beat them with han only doing 40 a round he can't kill 3-4 charging Jedi fast enough and they just leap over mouse walls.

The force push squads don't generally beat pelleaon b&b squads. And joruus' landspeeder tank doesn't beat solo charge. Even if he kills mara he can't bodyguard unleash and Han GH can hurt with disruptive cunning shots.

All in all that's 3 differant squad types for them all with 70-30 or worse matchups. Look for rebels to return strong in r&r with a few new squads that are just plain fun. As of now though I'm not convinced they need to be in the top 5 best squads.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:11 am 
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IG-86 Swarm should be up there. Lots of squad customization and great firepower.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:20 pm 
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knightmare wrote:
IG-86 Swarm should be up there. Lots of squad customization and great firepower.

I just keep taking second with this squad. It's got some really bad matchups (double Lancer).


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Nom Bombs with Cad and Yomin now has to be considered.

--Cad and Vong--
54 Cad Bane
34 Nom Anor
27 Lobot
19 Yomin Carr
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
48 Yuuzhan Vong Worker x12
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 18 activations)

It wipes the floor with Bastilla
It usually beats Thrawn squads (Palleon or not)
It annihilates Yodabuck
It gives lancers a really tough match.

It even gives solo charge a run for it's money - Yammosk steals Dodanna's effect, so it out-activates NR. If NR player puts Han in the lead Cad shoots the crap out of him. Even if not, it's hard to protect Han because you have mainly stealth attackers. If not, the workers stay outside the disruptive bubble and spit poison all over whoever is in front. No FP re-rolls for NR, so unless NR is rolling super hot they go down quickly. Anakin can't really do much either.

When you out-activate (almost always do, since you can steal activation control), and you can bring in an MTB to set off you bombs, not to mention win init - it's rock hard. (obvious exceptions for MTB strategy are vs San or Han GH)

Jake K has finished 2nd in TWO regionals (WI and IN) with this squad, losing only to . . . well me, with 2 different lancer variants. And those games could have easily gone the other way.

In a third regional (IL) Jake only lost to another Vong squad run by a top player in a close match, and my Stealth and Blue. I won mainly due to my winning map and Arica shooting the crap out of the workers with no cover.

THIS IS the top Vong squad in the Meta right now. Sorry JH swarms, you don't cut it.

It has an answer to almost everything.


My one concern was that it doesn't play fast enough, but Jake had all 3 pt wins this weekend (WI). He beat several hall of famers and GenCon top 8 finalists handily. The only match that went to time was our first one, where I got a 2 pt win. That particular match-up is slow going, but Jake has learned to play faster to get 3 pt wins with it.

So I now consider it amongst the top to beat.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Others maybe not in the top 5 but notable:

Stealth N Blue (2 regional wins placing above 7 Hall-of-Famers has to count for something)

Ben G's Sith squad: Revan SL, Exar Kun, and Bandon. INSANE strike range. Can get in deep and back out in 1 phase. Revan moves 18, swaps with Kun, and he jacks something up then transfers out.

I know Yodabuck was already mentioned, but I think Lou's Yodabuck/AniStap swap (with Qui-Gon Jedi Trainer and Admiral Yularen) is the best right now.

Mando death shots with Scouts and Gunsmiths deserve an honorable mention


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:22 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I know Yodabuck was already mentioned, but I think Lou's Yodabuck/AniStap swap (with Qui-Gon Jedi Trainer and Admiral Yularen) is the best right now.


You really think that's better than Skybuck?

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:35 pm 
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greentime wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
I know Yodabuck was already mentioned, but I think Lou's Yodabuck/AniStap swap (with Qui-Gon Jedi Trainer and Admiral Yularen) is the best right now.


You really think that's better than Skybuck?

Played by lou yes.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:35 pm 
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it is really, really, good. It doesn't auto-lose to 4 camaasi nobles like skybuck can depending on map

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:11 pm 
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greentime wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
I know Yodabuck was already mentioned, but I think Lou's Yodabuck/AniStap swap (with Qui-Gon Jedi Trainer and Admiral Yularen) is the best right now.


You really think that's better than Skybuck?


It's somewhat matchup dependent (ie, obviously against some things you would prefer Gen Sky's Djem So, and if you're up against things with 50 or 60 HP the ability to give Yobuck momentum is pretty big)...but, the Twin Strafe followed by Twin normal attack combo on Ani-Stap is a huge thing, especially with the stuff that Lou's build does to boost Ani-Stap's attack. We normally think of Yobuck squads as swarm-killers, and this build still is, but it also builds in the mass-damage-in-short-span potential that we normally associate with NR Mara builds or Thrawn + Cad builds (or others).

Lou sure knocked me around pretty good with this squad in Chicago (of course, the more traditional Skybuck build also knocks me around pretty good when Trevor runs it against me, so it's not like either build is bad).


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:12 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Nom Bombs with Cad and Yomin now has to be considered.

--Cad and Vong--
54 Cad Bane
34 Nom Anor
27 Lobot
19 Yomin Carr
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
48 Yuuzhan Vong Worker x12
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 18 activations)

It wipes the floor with Bastilla


I wouldn't say that. I came fairly close to beating it in Chicago. I brought the Rakghouls, mainly for the fun of it. I probably would've been better off with the Treadwell Droids, but it is what it is. It is a good squad, no doubt, but the fact I was able to come so close to beating (a miss by one of my shooters made made me unable to Push Cad Bane to death, putting me ahead). It's a good squad, that does is pretty strong against a lot of matchups, but if I could come close to beating Jake with the OR, I wouldn't say it wipes the floor with Bastilla, considering I am not the most top tier player there is. It probably does have the advantage, though.

Which is one thing. I think many are talking about Vong and Pelleon to fight Bastilla. Sure, protecting your CE's is fine, but in the 3 games against Vong in Chicago, the +10 Dam is what helped me win.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:29 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Nom Bombs with Cad and Yomin now has to be considered.

--Cad and Vong--
54 Cad Bane
34 Nom Anor
27 Lobot
19 Yomin Carr
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
48 Yuuzhan Vong Worker x12
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 18 activations)

It wipes the floor with Bastilla


I wouldn't say that. I came fairly close to beating it in Chicago. I brought the Rakghouls, mainly for the fun of it. I probably would've been better off with the Treadwell Droids, but it is what it is. It is a good squad, no doubt, but the fact I was able to come so close to beating (a miss by one of my shooters made made me unable to Push Cad Bane to death, putting me ahead). It's a good squad, that does is pretty strong against a lot of matchups, but if I could come close to beating Jake with the OR, I wouldn't say it wipes the floor with Bastilla, considering I am not the most top tier player there is. It probably does have the advantage, though.

Which is one thing. I think many are talking about Vong and Pelleon to fight Bastilla. Sure, protecting your CE's is fine, but in the 3 games against Vong in Chicago, the +10 Dam is what helped me win.


+1. Mira cannon has force sense. I'll take that 54 points.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 Metagame.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:22 pm 
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aargh

I forgot that at WI so ran my Mira out there to get a clear line. Cad made one of the evade saves and lived but I lost mira because I exposed her. Wonder if it would have played out differently had I remembered that. lol.

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