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Legalize Custom Maps?
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 Post subject: a FRIENDLY topic on legalizing custom maps.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:20 am 
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Ok I’m going to open a can that I sincerely want to keep light and friendly, just a pro’s and cons kind of topic. What I don’t want is another KMJ sucks argument, as do I want any of the map makers to be insulted, or placed on pedestals.

Should some custom maps be made tourneyment/dci legal?

Why or Why not?

What Custom Maps have proven to be great skirmish maps?

What are some of the Pros and Cons of Legal custom maps.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:39 am 
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I voted no for one reason. Are there maps that are good enough to be DCI? Well YEAH! JC's last one is a perfect example of one that could and probably should be DCI legal, but how do you monitor what maps people are using? As is they cant get the DCI floor rules updated.

I would be all for DCI/wizos buying private maps to add to the list, but at that point it really isnt a private custom map any more.

LOL, one small point JC, its KMG, not KMJ. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:49 am 
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I had to vote no. There are some GREAT maps out there, and there are MANY people out there who have little way to access these maps. Additionally, there are a great deal of poor maps out there. How to maintain printing requirements, what if somebody prints it at the wrong DPI and the squares are just a bit too small, or they fudge up lining up sheets and the LOS issues cause problems.

I think the only way to have these maps become legal is if WotC buys them and prints them in ways they can enforce.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:05 am 
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lol..yeah KMJ is a morning show from back home on the radio.


I'm torn about it. I want 2 or three custom maps to become recognized by DCI as much as they've been recognized by the people that play the game.

I'm afraid it will cause a flood of custom maps, and that my little hobby will become some sort of cut thraot competetion that I don't want to be a part of. It would cause me to stop posting stuff for other people and just go back to giving them to the stores around town.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:20 am 
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it would be nice if it happened but i think there would be large licensing problems with Lucasfilm.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:26 am 
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I voted Yes, but I guess I interpreted the question a little differently than the others. Yes, I want to see some of the custom maps get legalized. No, I don't want ALL of them legalized. There are about 3 or 4 really good ones out there that would really be awesome as DCI legal maps. The SWM world is really hurting for new maps right now, and WotC seems to be mostly dragging their heels.

I think the point of printing problems is easily solved by simple text that says "Map grids must be 1" by 1", and printed at such a quality so that all terrain lines are easily identifiable." Whether that means people print it from cafe-press, or print slices at home and tape them together, it should be good enough to play on. Heck, as far as I know, there's nothing in the rules right now that says you can't take a copied version of one of the currently legal maps and play on that. Does anything in the DCI floor rules say you have to play with an officially printed map? What if you scanned in a Throne Room map, and then printed it back out in slices to play on it. It would still be tournament legal, right?

All WotC has to do is select a dozen or so custom, fan-made maps once or twice a year, and have one of their people sit down and review the maps. Get some input from the well-recognized players on the forums (or heck...hold a poll/survey on the main website). Then choose one map and add it to the list. If we got just one new map, once a year, it'd be better than what we currently have!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:26 am 
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If WOTC approached Cpreksta,AG7 or even Me about it And said they wanted to publish one of our maps I think that would be one thing, but having DCi legal maps only available for download/print on your own is not a good idea.

I hate to say it, but custom maps should not be legal.

Except mine of course :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:35 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Heck, as far as I know, there's nothing in the rules right now that says you can't take a copied version of one of the currently legal maps and play on that. Does anything in the DCI floor rules say you have to play with an officially printed map? What if you scanned in a Throne Room map, and then printed it back out in slices to play on it. It would still be tournament legal, right?

Other then blatant copyright violation...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:37 am 
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I don't think thats a copyright violation, if your using it for personal use. Its the same as making a mix Tape for your Girlfriend,Wife, T-ball coach etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:54 am 
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Jedicartographer wrote:
I don't think thats a copyright violation, if your using it for personal use. Its the same as making a mix Tape for your Girlfriend,Wife, T-ball coach etc.

This is partly correct: you can't make mixed tapes except for personal use. So this would not be a copyright infringement since you're using it, yourself.

Also, DCI-sanctioned events are not policed at all. I, personally, have reported venues that were using house rules (not just like all droids but even different targeting rules!). Nothing happened, DCI does not care about SWM. So I say go for it! I plan on printing out some of the best maps and testing them out; if they're good we'll make some more and maybe legalize them. Hell, we already use almost all of the official maps now at 200pts. I'm even toying around with making ALL of them legal, we'll play some and see how it goes. If they're not going to make more maps legal, then I'll do it! By the way, I would LOVE for them to call me up and tell me to stop: it would show that they actually give a $41T!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:12 am 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
$41T


LOL! I saw this and thought:

"$41T? Does he mean 41 Thousand Dollars? Wouldn't that be $41K?... Oh wait! I get it!"

Obviously, I'm easily confused. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:16 am 
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LOL, that was what i was thinking too.

I have been toying around with declaring different maps legal for our venue too. I would hate to buy JCs latest map and not be able to use it since all we do is DCI. That and i would prefer to add the ruined base and temple to 200 for some more variation...at least until gencon time rolled around again.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:23 am 
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I agree with you 100% here, Menoth. We've talked about legalizing at least Ravaged Base and Jedi Temple for 200 point games at our venue. We tend to follow the standard DCI rules pretty well (especially for actual game rules and map choices) but then we do special build themes from week to week (like last night was 'Troopers', no Uniques and no JWMs, week before that was Imperial or Rebel Pure squads). Granted, if somebody comes to visit from out of town and has a problem with playing using our build suggestion, it's totally fine with us.

If DCI doesn't do something about the map situation soon, I think we'll definitely start adding in some of the other options. I would love, at the very least, to add the Yavin Sanctuary (I think it's one of AG7's maps) and JC's new Theed map to our list of 200 point maps. We'll see.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:01 am 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
Jedicartographer wrote:
I don't think thats a copyright violation, if your using it for personal use. Its the same as making a mix Tape for your Girlfriend,Wife, T-ball coach etc.

This is partly correct: you can't make mixed tapes except for personal use. So this would not be a copyright infringement since you're using it, yourself.

Fair Use specifically applies to cases where the work is not used for commercial gain. In the case of tournaments, your goal is to make a profit while using this copied map. I think it is a copyright violation, but I am definitely not a lawyer... I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express though.

As far as house rules, I am all for them, most know that we play a ton of house rules at our venue.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:52 am 
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There is only commercial gain in a tournament if you are winning something you otherwise had no chance of getting, or you didn't pay to enter otherwise. At our venue, we all chip in $5 every week for prize support. If you play on your home printed, taped together version of Rancor Pit, and win 1st place for the evening, then you get your first pick of Rares from the boosters we buy. It would be the exact same pick as anyone would get if they won using an officially printed map from WotC. So, unless somehow your home printed map allowed you to cheat, I don't really see any problem with it from a legal standpoint.

Heck, it's not like every week I don't loan out 2 or 3 maps to the kids at our venue since they either don't have maps, or want to use something other than the ones they own. I don't see how that would be any different than bringing a print-out version.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:18 pm 
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If you own a copy of the real map, and are playing on your photocopied version to protect your original, you're in the gray area where copyright infringement is tolerated and virtually unenforcible.

If you copied your buddy's map because you think the price of Product X is outrageous when you only want a map, you're infringing, but the scale is so small no one will ever notice or care.

If you are making copies and selling them on the internet that's copyright infringement that likely gets you a cease and desist.

I would like to see quality custom maps become DCI legal if we're going to continue along at the current pace of getting new maps done by Chris West (Mapmaker).


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:41 pm 
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I voted no because I think it would be too complicated in the end.

But there are of course alternatives.
Even though you shouldn't you can still use house rules in DCI tournaments. I don't say it's ok but it's possible to use custom maps as long as all are fine with it.
But the best alternative is probably to run non DCI tournaments where you can approve a couple of custom maps in addition to the usual tournament maps. Make your own rules.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:43 pm 
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NickName wrote:
If you own a copy of the real map, and are playing on your photocopied version to protect your original, you're in the gray area where copyright infringement is tolerated and virtually unenforcible.

If you copied your buddy's map because you think the price of Product X is outrageous when you only want a map, you're infringing, but the scale is so small no one will ever notice or care.

If you are making copies and selling them on the internet that's copyright infringement that likely gets you a cease and desist.

I would like to see quality custom maps become DCI legal if we're going to continue along at the current pace of getting new maps done by Chris West (Mapmaker).


What about option D: You have a printed map because it's near impossible to find one otherwise (i.e. Death Star, Muunilist, or Star Ship which were only available in the Starters and are much harder to find now).

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:50 pm 
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The only downside to legalizing custom maps is that any custom map is legal. That's just not fair, someone can design a map to fit their squad and win every time on it, but on other maps they struggle.

I'd say no.

And good job on the 2 pages in less than 7 hours, definitely a hot topic.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:53 pm 
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I like the idea of legalizing custom maps.
The only problem is I don't know where to get any.

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