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 Post subject: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 5:51 am 
Black Sun Thug
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im quite excited about the epics being made, but it has been stated that they will not be competative for normal play. so it makes me ask the questions;

why not?
what prevents an high cost epic from being competative?
and what would an epic have to be capable of in order to be competative against a 200-300pt squad?

obviously a low activation count is one of the main drawbacks of an epic. also slow movement "having to chase down every enemy in order to win" sort of thing.

some ideas i have come up with is a staggered activation like the at-at would help an epic with placement, and not leave it a total sitting duck. also another idea would be to give them some kind or "retaliation" ability that allows them to use a special ability or force power immediatly when they would take damage. and the last idea would be to just give the epics an insane amount of hitpoints, like 450ish.

are you excited about epics? do you like the idea of them even being competative or not? if you do, what would they need to be competative?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 8:45 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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D&D minis had an SA called...
Dual Activation: This character can activate twice in every round.

That SA would be something interesting to look into.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:52 am 
Intelligence Operative
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Or jus like Windu giving them reflect and riposte, you hit them, they hit you back. Having regeneration or a self force heal or new type of regeneration type ability that does not take up their attacks to use sonthu heal as they fight. Staggered activations are cool but you kind of want to avoid that if possible. I designed an epic piece once, here is


Spoilers Fate of the Jedi


Fringe
Abeloth
150, HP 200, def 25, atk 20, dmg 30
Unique, Ancient One: this character cannot be on any team with unique characters, melee attack, melee reach 6, quadrouple attack, greater mobile attack, twin attack, avoid defeat, regeneration 20 
Force 3, force renewal 3, master of the force 3, master illusion (force 1, when hit by an attack this character takes no damage with a save 6), drain life 5 (replaces attacks, 50 damage also force points), force dominate     

200 points she could activate 2 times a turn, Corrupt Environment (whenever an enemy character activates, at the end of their turn they take 10 damage, save 6)

So alot of power but you want them to be able to stay alive for at least a couple rounds, also being able to affect characters around them with things like riposte, reflect, mines, corrupt environment and other type ideas


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:13 pm 
Jedi Knight
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coffeebean wrote:
...are you excited about epics? do you like the idea of them even being competative or not? if you do, what would they need to be competative?


I cant wait to see them!
I'm sure they can be used in any format with a house rule or two, I want to see what makes them Epic.
I'm wondering if this is going to take the place of full 60 peice sets.
I suppose it would be good.
10 or 20 peice set with 10 Epics. Probably something to be concidered, cheaper and more cost effective.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:45 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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No, these Epics are not a replacement for the 60-piece V-sets. These are an extra project, kind of like the Battle of Theed.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 1:44 pm 
Sith Infiltrator
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What is epics? :?

Is it basically an "Unleashed" version of every character?

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:01 pm 
Death Star Designers
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:
What is epics? :?

Is it basically an "Unleashed" version of every character?


Info is here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11326

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:44 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:
What is epics? :?

Is it basically an "Unleashed" version of every character?

Think pieces in league with Grandmaster Luke. Higher point cost, kinda clunky in normal builds, and all around badass.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:50 pm 
Major Tierce
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@coffee

The problem with making epic "playable" in a regular format is just a inherent flaw in the system so to speak. Realistically once you get above the high 40's to low 50s it is virtually impossible to design a balanced and fair piece. We have seen this in our past that most pieces above this are basically unplayable because they just die to a swarm of undercosted shooters. Look at the likes of Exar, Bane, Either NR Luke, etc. The problem really lies in the fact that you can pump up scrubs so well that the high costed piece either has to have some gimmick (ala vaders in thrawn swap) or it just goes down too fast or to a random disintigration. If you make the high cost (epics) better defensively so that doesn't happen then it forces everyone to play an epic just to compete with the epics that everyone else is playing. Since that isn't cool and because we all like tons of options for squad building this is really how it will be.

The Epics will be cool/neat/over the top, etc but won't be legal in regular games (ie gencon regionals etc) so that people can play games with or without them as they see fit. I know in MI we will certainly have tourney days where there will be epics involved.

Hope that helps clarify

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 7:23 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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@urbanjedi
i see what you are trying to say, i realize that it would be difficult, but i cant see it as being impossible. i see your point, but bane, exar kun are good examples of expensive characters that have no way of dealing with swarms. i would expect an epic would have some ability that can deal out damage to multiple targets at once. and give them above average mobility so they can get out of a tight spot.

and as for balanced and fair, non-unique shooters boosted by multiple commander effects have ruled this game long enough, i would love to see a few epic jedi/sith be the new meta...... even if its just for a short stint.:)


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:40 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Bombad General Jar-Jar, Bombad Gungan General will the the epicest piece of all.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:24 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
Bombad General Jar-Jar, Bombad Gungan General will the the epicest piece of all.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm....................................oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...................................
ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.............WHAT................UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMM................WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOO......................UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:16 am 
Jedi Battlemaster
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^^^ btw that is not a new Bothan Transmission :P

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:34 am 
Mandalore
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coffeebean wrote:
@urbanjedi
and as for balanced and fair, non-unique shooters boosted by multiple commander effects have ruled this game long enough, i would love to see a few epic jedi/sith be the new meta...... even if its just for a short stint.:)


The problem with that is if they are made legal then everything from that point on has to take those pieces into consideration as well when trying to balance the game. Aside from that, like urbanjedi pointed out if that theyll either A) die quickly, or B) have to be made with really high defenses and great defensive abilities to avoid A. If you go with B, then everything in the game from that point on has to coordinate with that as well, so that other pieces stand a chance at defeating them so it doesnt become a 'play an epic or lose' game.

Basically, allowing them in would usher in the most blatant power creep ever seen in the game, which is a very bad idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:40 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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D&D minis had epics long before we did in SWM, and they had two different formats: one in which epics could not be played (200pts, I think), and one format in which they could. Those epic minis sometimes ranged into the 240+ pts range.

But epics were never playable in the normal/standard/championship format. So that's basically what's going on with the epics. People are free to use them in any non-official tourney or event that they want...but they won't be legal for the official tourneys/events.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:35 am 
Black Sun Thug
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i dont see it. right now a 200 point squad have damage outputs in excess of 500hp of damage in one round. how much time would it take for an epic to fight back? 3 rounds? how much damage would a single epic have to deal with to gain a victory? the fact is unless an epic is just stupidly powerful, no epic can repel "fire power of that magnatude" that is the essance of competative play right now. what im saying is even if epics were made legal, few, if any squads would have to change much to face an epic. all the things that are auto includes to most squads would be effective already against an epic.

cannons, towing, swapping, diplomats, override, bomb squads, direct damage, and so on are all competative build ideas that would still be effective against an epic. i dont see anybody saying that "if you dont build a hate squad to face GMLS, you wont have any chance at beating him". all epics are in the 100+ point range so that lone epic and a few fillers with have to face down and win against a 200 squad?

agains im only speculating, because i have no idea what a Gamers epic will look like, but im hoping that they will be balanced enough to be competative if the game ever went in that direction.

anyways, im actually having fun speculating on this, its been way to long since i actually was looking forward to somthing being released for this game :D


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:57 pm 
Warmaster
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thereisnotry wrote:
D&D minis had epics long before we did in SWM, and they had two different formats: one in which epics could not be played (200pts, I think), and one format in which they could. Those epic minis sometimes ranged into the 240+ pts range.

But epics were never playable in the normal/standard/championship format. So that's basically what's going on with the epics. People are free to use them in any non-official tourney or event that they want...but they won't be legal for the official tourneys/events.



Not thaty i am disagreeing with you, because i dont think they should be legal either, but when in dnd epic format you have 500 points to build your squad.so it wouldn't make sense to allow our epic characters at such a low level anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:24 pm 
Major Tierce
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@coffee

you are 100% correct that unless the epics are ridiculous that they don't stand a chance in today's meta. It was decided that rather than having to worry about it and make sure that one didn't slip through that was "too" powerful it would be better to just make them their own format and let each local group decide when and if they wanted to play regular tournies with them, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:51 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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Wonder if one of the designers of the Mandalorian figure could pm me. I am making the custom for Gencon and want to know if there is anything specific I should include on the custom to reflect its abilities. ie .. and without giving anything away... Boushh with Thermal Detonator should have something in is hand...

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