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 Post subject: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:41 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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i cant deny the fact that i hate Twin attack. i personally feel that this one ability has ruined the "fun-factor" of this game. once twin attack debuted it literally doubled the damage output of this game. the idea of sacrificing your move to get additional attacks was taken right out of the game. the strategy of damage management is almost a no go since high hitpoints actually caters to high damage output.

does anybody else miss the pre-twin attack days when you could actually make a mistake and recover from it. rather than whoever makes the first mistake loses?

i propose a "no Twin Attack" tournament.

or maybe a v-set with have a piece that is actually immune to twin attack, or even suppresses it, that would be sweet.


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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:49 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I went on hiatus from collecting after CotF and came back with A&E then backtracked for BH. I thought it was a joke when I read someone talking about Twin Attack. I couldn't comprehend an ability like that really being made! Now it seems everyone has it. I do wish Twin Attack was more of reserved abilities, one that we didn't just throw on a lot of characters.


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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:32 pm 
Droid Army Commander
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Ahh yes it was a very different game back in the old days. Much slower paced. Rob's blog from when he was designing BH reveal he really thought that Rebel Trooper Builds could break the game (LOL!) with Twin Attack.

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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:20 pm 
Mandalore
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I agree to a point. Powercreep is one thing most games suffer from as they age, including SWM obviously. All things being the same, damage output was going to creep along with the rest of the game. While Im not a fan of Twin, i think its a better alternative to having alot of pieces with base 30-50 damage and a single attack when moving.

At this point, you have to land an additional attack to do your max damage, opposed to just needing to hit with one to do alot of damage. Sure, you stand a better chance at landing a single hit with 2 attacks, but youd also stand a better chance of missing one of your two with twin than you do of missing your one regular attack.

A 'no twin attack' tourney sounds pretty fun. Id suggest having Twin function as Extra Attack for it, so it at least has some use.

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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:34 pm 
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For me the problem with SA's like Twin Attack is not the abilities themselfs but the amount of characters it has been given to directly or indirectly by way of a CE.

Things like twin attack should have been kept to unique character's and even then only on about 2 per-faction plus 1 or 2 Fringe unique.

This is not the only SA this applies to.
I really hate the fact the by the end of WOTC run the non-unique out shone there unique counterparts. Now it seems more non-unique have access to twin than unique, same for cloaked, moblie, accurate shot, override. I could go on.

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Last edited by dreadtech on Fri May 06, 2011 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:12 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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Ah yes...the days before twin attack. Back when 40 damage was a lot :Boba:

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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:22 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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Dendrite wrote:
Ah yes...the days before twin attack. Back when 40 damage was a lot :Boba:


Back when 40 health was a lot...


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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:18 pm 
Intelligence Operative
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Oh the good old days. When we complained about aurra Sing, and Darth maul's rolling cleave. Haha. Yes I do miss the old age of SWM, slower less damage, less health. Much more peaceful, a gentlemen's war. These days it's all twin and momentum and needing a bare minimum of 50 hp so you don't die from a board twin strafing lancer... Yes we are now in the mecha-super character days. I would love to see a counter to twin attack. Maybe:
Tibanna gas bomb, if a character uses twin attack it takes 20 damage that turn.
Or Powered Down/Flux Field, replaces turn, all characters lose twin attack until the end of the round.
General Obi-Wan Kenobi on speeder bike (I HATE YOU! (replaces turn, this character defeats all enemies with twin attack this turn, save 20, oh and lancers auto die!)
Haha
I guess we have to grow with the times and ride the wave, hoping for more hp, shields, damage reduction and evasive abilities to balance out the twin.


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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:51 pm 
Mandalore
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IO do not hate this ability nor do I hate all that it brought to the game. My reservations on the abilty however have not changed either. I think it was an ability that was better served extensibility for vehicles and melee characters. All the shooters should not have had it. There are some cases where it was a patch to fix something beyond repair, that would be the case of the troopers in the rebel faction. I perfered the flavor of characters like Jango from BH or Boba Merc, where it was a pick your posion stay and shoot twice or move and if they were getting twin it was from some commander they had to pay a pretty penny for.

DAC is an example where I didn't so much mind the commander effect but the meta that was created because of it. If people decided to actually run battle droid swarms it probably would have fit the bill the designers had in mind, but the good players took advantage of his abilities as they should have, (of course the designers at WOTC I hate to say it and I know am not alone were not the greatest play testers in the world).

Do I hate twin attack, no, is it my favorite ability, no, do I use it, yes, do I wish it had never happened no I think it's a fine ability that like many others is common, you just have to play with it like any other.

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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:30 am 
General
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jedispyder wrote:
... I do wish Twin Attack was more of reserved abilities, one that we didn't just throw on a lot of characters.


dreadtech wrote:
For me the problem with SA's like Twin Attack is not the abilities themselfs but the amount of characters it has been given to directly or indirectly by way of a CE.


Agreed 100%. It should have been more limited. The game has moved too much towards quick damage output and less strategy and maneuvering.


Mobile and GMA are others that have been given to too many figs (directly or via CE).

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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:18 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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It is similar to the path many other long term game have become. I haven't been in MTG for a long time but I do recall the newer sets making the winning decks faster.

I don't think Twin Attack was really a super power shift in the game. I think Greater Mobile has made much larger ripples when it splashed in the swm pond, in regards to speed and power in the game. The same principles to squad building remain the same. The winning squads, much like MTG, operate on the same base principles - just the pieces were swapped to make the squads faster.

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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:41 pm 
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Twin attack specifically never really bothered me, but it's linked in to a more general problem in that the top-tier ranged characters can do too much damage while moving. I very much prefered characters generally having to trade mobility for damage output. This had a ripple effect in how melee characters were designed, and how all characters defend themselves at range. I preferred that defense was mostly through manipulating the targeting rules to your advantage to spread damage around. But now, you generally avoid the damage completely somehow, or take so much you're done for. While damage spreading tactics still need to be learned, mastering them isn't the difference between winning and losing as often as it used to be. The game is much more geared toward generating a nuclear strike of some kind that instantly cripples your opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:04 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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NickName wrote:
Twin attack specifically never really bothered me, but it's linked in to a more general problem in that the top-tier ranged characters can do too much damage while moving. I very much prefered characters generally having to trade mobility for damage output. This had a ripple effect in how melee characters were designed, and how all characters defend themselves at range. I preferred that defense was mostly through manipulating the targeting rules to your advantage to spread damage around. But now, you generally avoid the damage completely somehow, or take so much you're done for. While damage spreading tactics still need to be learned, mastering them isn't the difference between winning and losing as often as it used to be. The game is much more geared toward generating a nuclear strike of some kind that instantly cripples your opponent.


Yep, I remember the days of moving a hp sink to the front, then rotating someone else etc to keep as many pieces alive as long as possible. Like you, I wouldn't place the blame on twin. It's a combination of many abilities, not one, not two, not 3. Twin had many positive effects as well. For example, in these common gripe sessions, everyone often forgets one of the most common gripes from the pre-universe days - that Rebels weren't competitive. Well, twin made them competitive, before Dodonna, before Reeikan, before GMA, and before the Snowspeeder. Well, twin, Force Spirit, and Princess Leia anyway :). Twin is a good ability on some figures, and not so great on others. Imagine the Vong melee pieces without it. Ugg. Bad enough as it is! Han Scoundrel with double? Never would have been played competitively. Sure, did they need to hand it out as often as they did? Probably not, but it wasn't a game breaker either. And neither was GMA for those who read the other thread like this one.

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 Post subject: Re: where would this game be without twin attack?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:43 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Twin itself is not inherently the problem. I remember the ol' Twin vs Double debates. It is the far more about the designs that used Twin.

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