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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:05 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Overall I think you guys are doing a fantastic job. I would rather have some much needed pieces included in upcoming sets before some obscure EU pieces, but I do like how you are doing the stats.

What I would love (as soon as you can please):

Chief Chirpa
Boss Nass
Winter
Bib Fortuna - restat
Chewbacca - Rebel faction with double attack
Agen Kolar - restat
Bail Organa - restat
Queen Amidala bodyguard (swap, bodyguard etc.)
Clone Trooper - restat from 9 points to 7 with the stats as is or similar

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:30 am 
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Darth Saxon wrote:
Winter


Go check the most recent spoilers. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:13 am 
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My thoughts on the game, and what I would like to see:

1. Rebel/ NR seperation:
Rebel and NR intermingle alot, as was WotCs intention. Since we are no longer under WotC control, Id like to see a bit bigger of a difference in the factions start to appear. I know both factions already have access to stuff the other doesnt, but there doesnt seem to be alot of difference in the squads seeing play from one faction to the next, in terms of support.

Something could be done to remedy this. Start giving them seperate kinds of bonuses and CEs and such that you have no intention of giving to the other faction anytime soon if ever.

They need to become two seperate factions and one big cow of a faction that has two names, depending on the cut of beef you want.

2. Awesome, almost auto-include pieces for each faction

I can think of only 3 pieces that really fall into the category Im talking about, and those are just off the top of my head: R2 Astro, Mas Ameda, and the YV War Coordinator.

These pieces dont cost very much, are fantastic for their point cost, you see them in just about any and every competitive squad, and they offer a nice bonus to their respective factions that isnt available to hardly any other faction (Yea, Mas and the YVWC overlap on the spread of CE's, but they still qualify for the category).

Every faction should have something like this. I dont mean Lobot, Ugos, or mice. Something faction specific that is awesome, will benefit almost any squad for the faction they are in, dont cost very much (so not a combat piece, per se), and gives a bonus to the faction that other factions just dont get.

Other pieces from other factions might fall into this category, but thats all I could think of while writing this post.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:48 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Disturbed1 wrote:
I can think of only 3 pieces that really fall into the category Im talking about, and those are just off the top of my head: R2 Astro, Mas Ameda, and the YV War Coordinator.


You forgot General Riekkan (no range, no limitation, makes it unique), and General Dodanna (has a choice, and so that makes it unique - no sight limitation and optional) :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:51 am 
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Disturbed1 wrote:
Awesome, almost auto-include pieces for each faction

I can think of only 3 pieces that really fall into the category Im talking about, and those are just off the top of my head: R2 Astro, Mas Ameda, and the YV War Coordinator.


Dodanna should be included here. Show me a NR or Rebel squad without him, and I'll beat it 9/10 times. I don't like this fact, but it's true.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:04 am 
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Dodonna I could say yes to, since he is the best of the activation control, despite there being imitation versions for other factions, but Reikkan gives out abilities that many many other pieces have in the game already. Compare that to Doombot, who is one of a kind, or the Booming Voice pieces, who there are only a pair of.

Im actually meaning something unique to 1-2 pieces that doesnt get duplicated for every faction.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:21 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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i dont mind DOTF.

i personally dont like 60 figure sets. too many new things to learn.

i do like the high gloss quality of the cards.

i mostly like the figure reprints, like revan, ki adi mundi.

still following the low hp/defense, high attack/ damage trend of WOTC. i know it would never happen but i would like to see the game go back to more solid defense stats so you dont always have to play like a scared turtle.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:26 am 
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DeusSol wrote:
Disturbed1 wrote:
I can think of only 3 pieces that really fall into the category Im talking about, and those are just off the top of my head: R2 Astro, Mas Ameda, and the YV War Coordinator.


You forgot General Riekkan (no range, no limitation, makes it unique), and General Dodanna (has a choice, and so that makes it unique - no sight limitation and optional) :mrgreen:



Rebel:rieekan, Dodonna, Princess Leia

NR: Dodonna, to a lesser extent Ganner and Mara

Imperial: Thrawn/mas

Republic: Doombot/mas

Sith:Darth Revan, Sith Lord (one phase swap is crazy effective) as of DOTF he should be the go-to guy in sith.

OR:Bastilla

Mando:Mando Captain(closest i can think of to autoinclude)

Sep:none currently

Fringe:Uggie/mouse

The only one i cant think of an autoinclude on is Sep. Sep's are a weird faction that can get the job done in an alarming number of ways. They are almost as versitle as rebels.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:56 am 
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Here're my thoughts, broken down by element in no particular order. I just added things over the past few days as I thought of them, or got what I wanted to say organized in my brain. I've now played with or against pretty much every piece in DotF and had been thinking about writing this up for a week or two. Boris's post spurred me into action...

Card Design & Printing
I feel this is the primary element that seperated this project from everything that's come before. Sure, the stat design is great, but it's the amazing quality of the physical cards, and the fact that physical cards exist at all that really makes the VSets. The card design is fantastic. The print quality is fantastic. My only minor gripe is I wish the facton color stripe along the top had been maintained so VSet cards in a box are still slightly tinted the faction color.
Grade: A

Funding Method
Kickstarter was a great choice. I like the transparency and security. I like the idea of donations to cover the print run and shipping and also sharing the extras with others. Apparently shipping came up a bit short, but I think that should be easily correctable based on experience with a bump in the initial funding, and requesting non-donors cover their own shipping to some extent when requesting cards. The other improvement I'd like to see is even more transparency about the costs and if any money remains (if any) at any point in time. It shouldn't be too hard to have a finances thread with this info so donors can see exactly where their money went.
Grade: A-

Distribution
There are donors apparently still waiting for their set--that kinda says it all. This was really too big a job for any one person. It also needed way more organization and transparency. There were cases where someone's set supposedly went to their pointman, but there was no clear answer about who the pointman was in some cases. If my experience as a pointman is typical, then most sets did not have a name/address attached to them. You just got X copies, and distributed them on your own. I'd like to see a public list showing when a package was sent, to whom, and whose sets were in the package.
Grade: D

Character Selection
This is pretty much a free pass from me. I've never really cared which particular characters are chose from the fluff for any particular set as long as they're interesting in gameplay terms. I kind of like like seeing a mix of new characters and old favorites. At this point as close as we have to a major element missing is a few of the original trilogy mainstays in New Republic format but I never expected DotF to fill that minor void all at once. So for me the best case is making characters that other players really wanted to see, and that seems to have occurred.
Grade: A

Quality Control
When I saw the leaked cards I was afraid this particular element was going to border on failure. Luckily, those cards were from before the process even really started and the final result exceeded expectations by leaps and bounds. Still, there were a few cases of card errata so there's room for improvement.
Grade: B+

Faction Balance
The lesser factions have made real strides without totally reshaping what works well in the stronger factions. Each of the weaker factions got a cornerstone piece and each is wildly different. The Yammosk plays well as the Vong's hive brain. Bastila's Battle Meditation really pumps up the Old Republic, though after playing her a bit I sort of wish she was more of a battlefield commander rather than a character you have to hide completely to make sure the meditation is effective. The Sith got a trio of figures that reshape the faction (Revan, Bandon, Kun Spirit) but all push their offensive onslaught mentality in different ways. The Mandalorians get Jaster Mereel who helps fill a major void, allowing their expensive pieces some damage potential even if they get picked off somehow. It's hard not to gush about how well this particular element was handled--the power shift is neither too subtle, nor too overwhelming for a single set. Basically just right. The design team did there best work here.
Grade: A

Metagame Evolution
There are a number of metagame concepts and characters that everyone accepts at the highest level of play, but most people would seem to prefer weren't quite so prominant. Leading the list would likely be activation control and the related tempo control epitomized by two pieces: General Dodonna and Mouse Driod swarms. DotF introduces several counters to Dodonna, whether it be the less imaginative direct counter the Mandalorians got with the Counter Intelligence Officer, or the more creative abilities the Vong and Old Republic got to shut down or borrow the effect using their signature new pieces. Less was done to slow down the value of insanely high activation counts. Years ago, shifting the tourney rules to only allow one activation in the first phase effectively eliminated the problem the game had with massive first-strike combos. But about the same time Oppurtunist came into prominence along with unprecidentedly large damage output from individual chraracters and ever since the game has been a paridoxical race for last strike that DotF didn't really change in any substantial way. There are a few outliers that break the cycle (Revan is a nice mid-round strike piece, for examle) but there's room for more action here. Another staple is melee crowd-control with Yoda on Kybuck and the Lancer Droid as the primary offenders. The problem here as that these pieces are also a nice counter for tempo and activation control squads--they're a huge threat there. So you don't want to hate them out of the metagame completely or you cause a worse problem. The solutions DotF brings are fairly elegant--give the factions that suffer most, but don't rely on huge activation counts themselves too much, some pieces that mitigate the advantage. So you get the Old Republic Jedi Seer getting attacks of opportunity on the Lancer and Jaster Mereel bringing death shots to strafed or galloped Manadalorians evening the playing field substantially in what used to be rout matchups. There are also some lesser concepts that don't particularly dominate, but are prominent enough that they could use some mitigating elements and could uses a bit of hate sprinked in just to offer them a bad matchup here and there. Mobile and Greater Mobile on shooters are overused. Reinforcements is overused. Opportunist is overused. Evade is overused on shooters. While none of these need to be nerfed, each could use a piece or two it has trouble dealing with. I also think non-unique combat swarms still need help in several factions--these should be more competetive than that are. Squads compositions still favor high cost uniques with 3 (or even 2!) point activation fodder too strongly in too many factions.
Grade: B

Revival of Older Pieces
Along with faction balance and metagame evolution, reviving older pieces is what I consider the other major factor that should anchor the VSet designs. This is the area where I think the design team most underachieved. Starting with the positives, Atris bumped Handmaidens right up to Tier 1. Niles Ferrier brings back Defels, Pallaeon helps a few Vaders, the Scout Trooper Officer bumps Scouts, and Poggle puts Geonosians, mostly Drones, on the table but I don't think even the designers planned on either of these being more than middlingly competetive. The common thread here is that the focus tends to be quite narrow, often a single piece benefitting. Even so, that's really not much to complain about. Where I have trouble is for each of those designs that helps an old piece see more play, we have another design that dooms an old piece to never appearing. For clarity, with uniques this isn't really problematic, and there's often no other reasonable solution. Ki-Adi-Mundi is awful. Creating a new piece that only helps Ki is counterproductive, leads to the worse element of "pre-built" squads and you can only play one Ki anyway. So the way to go with uniques is, unfortunately, to just replace substandard ones with better models. But that's not true of non-uniques. I very much dislike the "build a better model" theory applied to them. Let's take an example. The Series II Destroyer Droid in a vaccuum is a finely designed piece, effective and costed well. But it's among my least favorite pieces in DotF because quite simply it does everything the regular DD does better at roughly the same price point. It's so much more effective for it's cost that there's almost no way a DD can be resurrected at this point because the Series II will almost certainly benefit even more from any help it gets. I would much rather have seen a piece created that boosts the original DD--say a weak commander with Rapport that gave them Advanced Shields so the originals resemble the Series II, or a different Series II design that actually synergized well with the original so both see use in the squad since we have two different sculpts. Another similar case is the Yuuzhan Vong High-bred Warrior--he's so much better than the other Vong in his price range, and so functionally similar, that it's going to be tough to help bring them into play without this guy getting a boost as well and remaining the go-to piece. To a lesser extent, the Nogrhi Warrior and Mandalorian Gunsmith make revivals of similar Wizards pieces much less likely. On a slight different track, you'll notice most of the discussions revolve around pieces helping or hurting other single pieces. I'd like to see more done at the class level. The standout here in DotF was helping Black Sun and we need more of that. Troopers need help in most factions. I'd like to see something perhaps for Heavy Weapons characters, or maybe a bit more for Mercenaries. Buff Jabba's rabble somehow. Seps Commando Droids and pretty much all their droids outside of the Lancer and 4-point Battle Droid need help--we have a zillion Super Battle Droid sculps wasting away and I miss seeing things like Crab and Spider droids on the table while fringe IG-88 clone dominates.
Grade: C-

Unique Designs
This is kind of the easiest bit to design, and for many the most fun, and most anticipated. There's a lot of good work done here, but the elements important to me are mostly covered in other sections. I only really include this bit so it's clear that my minor disappointment with some of the design work on non-uniques doesn't extend to uniques as well. It's solid in choices, variety, and execution but it's not something that interests me all that much.
Grade: B+

New Abilities
The work here is pretty good overall. I prefer that individual abilities remain fairly simple. The design team did a pretty good job of reigning in some concepts that started out much more complex (a bit of inside knowledge showing through here, which I've tried to avoid but it's particularly important here to note.) Telepathic Insight is perhaps the most complex element, but it's also a key one for the faction, so the design team chose well where to push the envelope rather than, for example, leaving something weird that was also rather insignficant in the larger scheme of things.
Grade: B+

Shaking Things Up
One of the neat aspects of the game has always been the weird ability that generates squads that play entirely differently than anything the game has seen before. Some will be instantly apparent (Nom Bombs) while others only show their true power over time (San Hill.) Some will be massively dominant (swapping) while others are relegated mostly to casual play due to their inherent riskiness (Immediate Reserves, Jar Jar, "gambling" powers). But these elements have always been one of the things I've looked forward to with each set. DotF has a few such elements. The most prominent is the Yammosk's Telepathic Insight. Stealing a commander effect is just neat, and leads to squads that play differently practically every game. It promotes adaptability which remains one of the great tests of a skilled player. It's almost perfect as a "shaking" ability. Nothing else quite reaches that hight, but getting there once a set is nothing to be critical of. We see Geonosians getting the Nom Bomb trick. Vong get a Vaderesqe Attack bonus stacking trick. New Republic and Vong each get a nifty trick piece with stacking bonuses as it takes damage. Imps get a nice squad customization trick with Pallaeon. All neat, but none create a new style of squadbuilding or tactical play that's the holy grail of shaking things up.
Grade: B

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:20 pm 
Master of the Order
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NickName wrote:
Here're my thoughts, broken down by element in no particular order. I just added things over the past few days as I thought of them, or got what I wanted to say organized in my brain. I've now played with or against pretty much every piece in DotF and had been thinking about writing this up for a week or two. Boris's post spurred me into action...

Card Design & Printing
I feel this is the primary element that seperated this project from everything that's come before. Sure, the stat design is great, but it's the amazing quality of the physical cards, and the fact that physical cards exist at all that really makes the VSets. The card design is fantastic. The print quality is fantastic. My only minor gripe is I wish the facton color stripe along the top had been maintained so VSet cards in a box are still slightly tinted the faction color.
Grade: A

Funding Method
Kickstarter was a great choice. I like the transparency and security. I like the idea of donations to cover the print run and shipping and also sharing the extras with others. Apparently shipping came up a bit short, but I think that should be easily correctable based on experience with a bump in the initial funding, and requesting non-donors cover their own shipping to some extent when requesting cards. The other improvement I'd like to see is even more transparency about the costs and if any money remains (if any) at any point in time. It shouldn't be too hard to have a finances thread with this info so donors can see exactly where their money went.
Grade: A-

Distribution
There are donors apparently still waiting for their set--that kinda says it all. This was really too big a job for any one person. It also needed way more organization and transparency. There were cases where someone's set supposedly went to their pointman, but there was no clear answer about who the pointman was in some cases. If my experience as a pointman is typical, then most sets did not have a name/address attached to them. You just got X copies, and distributed them on your own. I'd like to see a public list showing when a package was sent, to whom, and whose sets were in the package.
Grade: D

Character Selection
This is pretty much a free pass from me. I've never really cared which particular characters are chose from the fluff for any particular set as long as they're interesting in gameplay terms. I kind of like like seeing a mix of new characters and old favorites. At this point as close as we have to a major element missing is a few of the original trilogy mainstays in New Republic format but I never expected DotF to fill that minor void all at once. So for me the best case is making characters that other players really wanted to see, and that seems to have occurred.
Grade: A

Quality Control
When I saw the leaked cards I was afraid this particular element was going to border on failure. Luckily, those cards were from before the process even really started and the final result exceeded expectations by leaps and bounds. Still, there were a few cases of card errata so there's room for improvement.
Grade: B+

Faction Balance
The lesser factions have made real strides without totally reshaping what works well in the stronger factions. Each of the weaker factions got a cornerstone piece and each is wildly different. The Yammosk plays well as the Vong's hive brain. Bastila's Battle Meditation really pumps up the Old Republic, though after playing her a bit I sort of wish she was more of a battlefield commander rather than a character you have to hide completely to make sure the meditation is effective. The Sith got a trio of figures that reshape the faction (Revan, Bandon, Kun Spirit) but all push their offensive onslaught mentality in different ways. The Mandalorians get Jaster Mereel who helps fill a major void, allowing their expensive pieces some damage potential even if they get picked off somehow. It's hard not to gush about how well this particular element was handled--the power shift is neither too subtle, nor too overwhelming for a single set. Basically just right. The design team did there best work here.
Grade: A

Metagame Evolution
There are a number of metagame concepts and characters that everyone accepts at the highest level of play, but most people would seem to prefer weren't quite so prominant. Leading the list would likely be activation control and the related tempo control epitomized by two pieces: General Dodonna and Mouse Driod swarms. DotF introduces several counters to Dodonna, whether it be the less imaginative direct counter the Mandalorians got with the Counter Intelligence Officer, or the more creative abilities the Vong and Old Republic got to shut down or borrow the effect using their signature new pieces. Less was done to slow down the value of insanely high activation counts. Years ago, shifting the tourney rules to only allow one activation in the first phase effectively eliminated the problem the game had with massive first-strike combos. But about the same time Oppurtunist came into prominence along with unprecidentedly large damage output from individual chraracters and ever since the game has been a paridoxical race for last strike that DotF didn't really change in any substantial way. There are a few outliers that break the cycle (Revan is a nice mid-round strike piece, for examle) but there's room for more action here. Another staple is melee crowd-control with Yoda on Kybuck and the Lancer Droid as the primary offenders. The problem here as that these pieces are also a nice counter for tempo and activation control squads--they're a huge threat there. So you don't want to hate them out of the metagame completely or you cause a worse problem. The solutions DotF brings are fairly elegant--give the factions that suffer most, but don't rely on huge activation counts themselves too much, some pieces that mitigate the advantage. So you get the Old Republic Jedi Seer getting attacks of opportunity on the Lancer and Jaster Mereel bringing death shots to strafed or galloped Manadalorians evening the playing field substantially in what used to be rout matchups. There are also some lesser concepts that don't particularly dominate, but are prominent enough that they could use some mitigating elements and could uses a bit of hate sprinked in just to offer them a bad matchup here and there. Mobile and Greater Mobile on shooters are overused. Reinforcements is overused. Opportunist is overused. Evade is overused on shooters. While none of these need to be nerfed, each could use a piece or two it has trouble dealing with. I also think non-unique combat swarms still need help in several factions--these should be more competetive than that are. Squads compositions still favor high cost uniques with 3 (or even 2!) point activation fodder too strongly in too many factions.
Grade: B

Revival of Older Pieces
Along with faction balance and metagame evolution, reviving older pieces is what I consider the other major factor that should anchor the VSet designs. This is the area where I think the design team most underachieved. Starting with the positives, Atris bumped Handmaidens right up to Tier 1. Niles Ferrier brings back Defels, Pallaeon helps a few Vaders, the Scout Trooper Officer bumps Scouts, and Poggle puts Geonosians, mostly Drones, on the table but I don't think even the designers planned on either of these being more than middlingly competetive. The common thread here is that the focus tends to be quite narrow, often a single piece benefitting. Even so, that's really not much to complain about. Where I have trouble is for each of those designs that helps an old piece see more play, we have another design that dooms an old piece to never appearing. For clarity, with uniques this isn't really problematic, and there's often no other reasonable solution. Ki-Adi-Mundi is awful. Creating a new piece that only helps Ki is counterproductive, leads to the worse element of "pre-built" squads and you can only play one Ki anyway. So the way to go with uniques is, unfortunately, to just replace substandard ones with better models. But that's not true of non-uniques. I very much dislike the "build a better model" theory applied to them. Let's take an example. The Series II Destroyer Droid in a vaccuum is a finely designed piece, effective and costed well. But it's among my least favorite pieces in DotF because quite simply it does everything the regular DD does better at roughly the same price point. It's so much more effective for it's cost that there's almost no way a DD can be resurrected at this point because the Series II will almost certainly benefit even more from any help it gets. I would much rather have seen a piece created that boosts the original DD--say a weak commander with Rapport that gave them Advanced Shields so the originals resemble the Series II, or a different Series II design that actually synergized well with the original so both see use in the squad since we have two different sculpts. Another similar case is the Yuuzhan Vong High-bred Warrior--he's so much better than the other Vong in his price range, and so functionally similar, that it's going to be tough to help bring them into play without this guy getting a boost as well and remaining the go-to piece. To a lesser extent, the Nogrhi Warrior and Mandalorian Gunsmith make revivals of similar Wizards pieces much less likely. On a slight different track, you'll notice most of the discussions revolve around pieces helping or hurting other single pieces. I'd like to see more done at the class level. The standout here in DotF was helping Black Sun and we need more of that. Troopers need help in most factions. I'd like to see something perhaps for Heavy Weapons characters, or maybe a bit more for Mercenaries. Buff Jabba's rabble somehow. Seps Commando Droids and pretty much all their droids outside of the Lancer and 4-point Battle Droid need help--we have a zillion Super Battle Droid sculps wasting away and I miss seeing things like Crab and Spider droids on the table while fringe IG-88 clone dominates.
Grade: C-

Unique Designs
This is kind of the easiest bit to design, and for many the most fun, and most anticipated. There's a lot of good work done here, but the elements important to me are mostly covered in other sections. I only really include this bit so it's clear that my minor disappointment with some of the design work on non-uniques doesn't extend to uniques as well. It's solid in choices, variety, and execution but it's not something that interests me all that much.
Grade: B+

New Abilities
The work here is pretty good overall. I prefer that individual abilities remain fairly simple. The design team did a pretty good job of reigning in some concepts that started out much more complex (a bit of inside knowledge showing through here, which I've tried to avoid but it's particularly important here to note.) Telepathic Insight is perhaps the most complex element, but it's also a key one for the faction, so the design team chose well where to push the envelope rather than, for example, leaving something weird that was also rather insignficant in the larger scheme of things.
Grade: B+

Shaking Things Up
One of the neat aspects of the game has always been the weird ability that generates squads that play entirely differently than anything the game has seen before. Some will be instantly apparent (Nom Bombs) while others only show their true power over time (San Hill.) Some will be massively dominant (swapping) while others are relegated mostly to casual play due to their inherent riskiness (Immediate Reserves, Jar Jar, "gambling" powers). But these elements have always been one of the things I've looked forward to with each set. DotF has a few such elements. The most prominent is the Yammosk's Telepathic Insight. Stealing a commander effect is just neat, and leads to squads that play differently practically every game. It promotes adaptability which remains one of the great tests of a skilled player. It's almost perfect as a "shaking" ability. Nothing else quite reaches that hight, but getting there once a set is nothing to be critical of. We see Geonosians getting the Nom Bomb trick. Vong get a Vaderesqe Attack bonus stacking trick. New Republic and Vong each get a nifty trick piece with stacking bonuses as it takes damage. Imps get a nice squad customization trick with Pallaeon. All neat, but none create a new style of squadbuilding or tactical play that's the holy grail of shaking things up.
Grade: B



Just a fantastic post here Jason. Well thought out and clearly stated. I not only agree with virtually everything you said, but you brought up several excellent points that I had not even thought of.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Honestly, I'd like it if the V-set pieces had a clearer role to play in the meta.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 1:44 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
Rebel:rieekan, Dodonna, Princess Leia
NR: Dodonna, to a lesser extent Ganner and Mara
Imperial: Thrawn/mas
Republic: Doombot/mas
Sith:Darth Revan, Sith Lord (one phase swap is crazy effective) as of DOTF he should be the go-to guy in sith.
OR:Bastilla
Mando:Mando Captain(closest i can think of to autoinclude)
Sep:none currently
Fringe:Uggie/mouse
The only one i cant think of an autoinclude on is Sep. Sep's are a weird faction that can get the job done in an alarming number of ways. They are almost as versitle as rebels.


I had forgotten Dodonna, Princess Leia probably works fairly well for this, and maybe Ganner.

Mara, Revan, Bastilla, and Thrawn, while all great pieces, arent really what I was meaning, as their cost is not cheap. Mando captain and Reikkan suffer from the same problem of being great pieces, sure, but what they grant is prevalent in the game in general that its not unique in the slightest.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:51 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Here're my thoughts, broken down by element in no particular order. I just added things over the past few days as I thought of them, or got what I wanted to say organized in my brain. I've now played with or against pretty much every piece in DotF and had been thinking about writing this up for a week or two. Boris's post spurred me into action...

Card Design & Printing
I feel this is the primary element that seperated this project from everything that's come before. Sure, the stat design is great, but it's the amazing quality of the physical cards, and the fact that physical cards exist at all that really makes the VSets. The card design is fantastic. The print quality is fantastic. My only minor gripe is I wish the facton color stripe along the top had been maintained so VSet cards in a box are still slightly tinted the faction color.
Grade: A


Working on you suggestion for the next set

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:51 am 
Master of the Order
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Enjoyed reading your comments, Nickname. I want to specifically address a couple of points.
NickName wrote:
Metagame Evolution
There are a number of metagame concepts and characters that everyone accepts at the highest level of play, but most people would seem to prefer weren't quite so prominant. Leading the list would likely be activation control and the related tempo control epitomized by two pieces: General Dodonna and Mouse Driod swarms. DotF introduces several counters to Dodonna, whether it be the less imaginative direct counter the Mandalorians got with the Counter Intelligence Officer, or the more creative abilities the Vong and Old Republic got to shut down or borrow the effect using their signature new pieces. Less was done to slow down the value of insanely high activation counts. Years ago, shifting the tourney rules to only allow one activation in the first phase effectively eliminated the problem the game had with massive first-strike combos. But about the same time Oppurtunist came into prominence along with unprecidentedly large damage output from individual chraracters and ever since the game has been a paridoxical race for last strike that DotF didn't really change in any substantial way. There are a few outliers that break the cycle (Revan is a nice mid-round strike piece, for examle) but there's room for more action here. Another staple is melee crowd-control with Yoda on Kybuck and the Lancer Droid as the primary offenders. The problem here as that these pieces are also a nice counter for tempo and activation control squads--they're a huge threat there. So you don't want to hate them out of the metagame completely or you cause a worse problem. The solutions DotF brings are fairly elegant--give the factions that suffer most, but don't rely on huge activation counts themselves too much, some pieces that mitigate the advantage. So you get the Old Republic Jedi Seer getting attacks of opportunity on the Lancer and Jaster Mereel bringing death shots to strafed or galloped Manadalorians evening the playing field substantially in what used to be rout matchups. There are also some lesser concepts that don't particularly dominate, but are prominent enough that they could use some mitigating elements and could uses a bit of hate sprinked in just to offer them a bad matchup here and there. Mobile and Greater Mobile on shooters are overused. Reinforcements is overused. Opportunist is overused. Evade is overused on shooters. While none of these need to be nerfed, each could use a piece or two it has trouble dealing with. I also think non-unique combat swarms still need help in several factions--these should be more competetive than that are. Squads compositions still favor high cost uniques with 3 (or even 2!) point activation fodder too strongly in too many factions.
Grade: B


There are several great ideas being considered and soon to be tested.

Quote:
Revival of Older Pieces
Along with faction balance and metagame evolution, reviving older pieces is what I consider the other major factor that should anchor the VSet designs. This is the area where I think the design team most underachieved. Starting with the positives, Atris bumped Handmaidens right up to Tier 1. Niles Ferrier brings back Defels, Pallaeon helps a few Vaders, the Scout Trooper Officer bumps Scouts, and Poggle puts Geonosians, mostly Drones, on the table but I don't think even the designers planned on either of these being more than middlingly competetive. The common thread here is that the focus tends to be quite narrow, often a single piece benefitting. Even so, that's really not much to complain about. Where I have trouble is for each of those designs that helps an old piece see more play, we have another design that dooms an old piece to never appearing. For clarity, with uniques this isn't really problematic, and there's often no other reasonable solution. Ki-Adi-Mundi is awful. Creating a new piece that only helps Ki is counterproductive, leads to the worse element of "pre-built" squads and you can only play one Ki anyway. So the way to go with uniques is, unfortunately, to just replace substandard ones with better models. But that's not true of non-uniques. I very much dislike the "build a better model" theory applied to them. Let's take an example. The Series II Destroyer Droid in a vaccuum is a finely designed piece, effective and costed well. But it's among my least favorite pieces in DotF because quite simply it does everything the regular DD does better at roughly the same price point. It's so much more effective for it's cost that there's almost no way a DD can be resurrected at this point because the Series II will almost certainly benefit even more from any help it gets. I would much rather have seen a piece created that boosts the original DD--say a weak commander with Rapport that gave them Advanced Shields so the originals resemble the Series II, or a different Series II design that actually synergized well with the original so both see use in the squad since we have two different sculpts. Another similar case is the Yuuzhan Vong High-bred Warrior--he's so much better than the other Vong in his price range, and so functionally similar, that it's going to be tough to help bring them into play without this guy getting a boost as well and remaining the go-to piece. To a lesser extent, the Nogrhi Warrior and Mandalorian Gunsmith make revivals of similar Wizards pieces much less likely. On a slight different track, you'll notice most of the discussions revolve around pieces helping or hurting other single pieces. I'd like to see more done at the class level. The standout here in DotF was helping Black Sun and we need more of that. Troopers need help in most factions. I'd like to see something perhaps for Heavy Weapons characters, or maybe a bit more for Mercenaries. Buff Jabba's rabble somehow. Seps Commando Droids and pretty much all their droids outside of the Lancer and 4-point Battle Droid need help--we have a zillion Super Battle Droid sculps wasting away and I miss seeing things like Crab and Spider droids on the table while fringe IG-88 clone dominates.
Grade: C-


I don't agree that any original non-unique must be ignored or forgotten about just because a better version of the figure is created through a stat card. For example, this is something I have been working on for a while:

Separatist Engineer 4 pts.
10 Hit Points
12 Defense
+0 Attack
0 Damage

Special Abilities
Mechanic (Whenever this character or an adjacent ally uses an ability to remove damage from a non-living character, double the amount of damage removed)
Repair 20
Systems Modifications (Droids in your squad named Destroyer Droid gain +4 to saves when using abilities whose names contain Shields. Droids in your squad whose names contain Super Battle Droid gain Damage Reduction 10)

That armor's too strong for blasters!

Not saying this would ever be made, but its a thought. I think similar designs could be done for a lot of other figures out there. The biggest challenge is to make it as flavorful as possible without it also being too restricted. I know Rob had similar challenges with this issue.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:48 am 
Master of the Order
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Another interesting testament to the V-set so far is this:

3 Regionals so far, all three winning squads have NO v-set characters. Why is this a testament? Because the design team didn't go crazy with powercreep.

That being said, all 3 SECOND place squads were centered around at least one v-set piece (Vong Nom Bombs with workers and a Yammosk, OR with Bastilla, Imp with Atris boosting Handmaidens). I can speak for sure about my 2 finals matches (Chicago and Kokomo IN) and say both were completely a tough match and could have easily gone the other way. I would guess that would be true at least to some extent in Maryland.

So - one major goal of the V-sets has come to fruition: we are closer to balance of the factions. 3 different regional champion factions (Seps, NR, and Imperial, and add 2 more to second place (OR and Vong). That's more factions in just those 6 squads than have ever been in the GenCon top 8 finals by comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:14 pm 
Death Star Designers
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Another interesting testament to the V-set so far is this:

3 Regionals so far, all three winning squads have NO v-set characters. Why is this a testament? Because the design team didn't go crazy with powercreep.

That being said, all 3 SECOND place squads were centered around at least one v-set piece (Vong Nom Bombs with workers and a Yammosk, OR with Bastilla, Imp with Atris boosting Handmaidens). I can speak for sure about my 2 finals matches (Chicago and Kokomo IN) and say both were completely a tough match and could have easily gone the other way. I would guess that would be true at least to some extent in Maryland.

So - one major goal of the V-sets has come to fruition: we are closer to balance of the factions. 3 different regional champion factions (Seps, NR, and Imperial, and add 2 more to second place (OR and Vong). That's more factions in just those 6 squads than have ever been in the GenCon top 8 finals by comparison.



Yep, I had a similar experience in Maryland. My semifinal game was against a squad with the new Jaina, who was a pain and a half to kill since his squad also had Wedge and Leia Skywalker. The final game against OR with Bastila was probably my closest match all day, though. So I agree that DotF hit the power level right on the nose; it's not so powerful that now every good squad is based on DotF pieces (as indicated by the winning squads not using any), but it's powerful enough that doing so can result in very good squads with better than even odds at winning (as indicated by the 2nd place squads including DotF pieces).

Very good point.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:04 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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Nick names post was very good, agree with almost all of it.

My additional thoughts:

Like to see more counters for super stealth besides just force abilities.

Also, like to see the virtual stuff move into rules as well. Add more to the game, like D&D minis did. The Epic stuff seems to be a move in that direction and i think it is awesome. Would also like to see battlefield conditions, maybe for a different play format so it did not change the game for those who did not like it. Maybe new terrain types on the maps.

Would like 40 card sets, purely selfish reasons. I am a slow moder so i need the time.

More movie characters, especially Ewoks and Jabba Scum.

Would like the cards to match up with the originals but i can live with that, especially with the nice card stock you guys used.

All in all, great job guys!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:58 am 
Black Sun Thug
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First of all I appologize if I am rambling. I am very tired.

Lets see.

My problems with the First V-set:

Atris: Handmaidens are seriously overpowered now. Please PLEASE no more greater/twin/doulbe guys.

Exar Kun, Force spirit. He's ridiculous. He does so much for 14 points. seriously undercosted. I mean he drains force, gets reroll his saves, and the -4 to saves.... Renders any defensive ability nearly useless. Makes Naga Sadow's Illusion super powerfull, Sith Sorcery devastates entire teams. The inquisitor is stealing characters every turn. And then theres the sith rage and force renewal it grants the target which by alone seems fair for 14 points.

Inquisitor. Pieces that steal an opponent's character are a pet peeve of mine. This character can do some ridiculous things. Stall teams for entire turns by stealing the guy in front in a narrow hallway or who is adjacent to a bunch of allies. It has limitless range direct damage attacks which in my opinion are seriously detrimental to the fun of an all force user battle. And it also has the Disintigrate-style element in the event sombody rolls a 1 on the save (or a 5 or less when Exar's ghost is around) they are screwed which in my opinion is a bad element to have in the game.

As far as suggestions go:

Direct damage ranged force abilities are bad. please no more. Melee battles where characters actually have to swing at eachother are more fun.

Cloaked doesn't have any counters. Please no more cloaked, especially on ranged characters.

Please release a balance of darkside/lightside. No playing favorites.

Please try to balance melee vs ranged.

No more Greater Mobile. except maybe on melee pieces

Abilities that make currently underpowred abilities better and overpowered abilities less preferable would be nice. specifically abilities that counter the currently uncounterable power abilities. Cloaked, greater mobile, direct damage force powers and so on. Meanwhile having abilities that encourage less usefull abilities and make them more desirable may be a breath of fresh air.

Try to add pieces that make less playable squad types more playable rather than pieces that are just going to buff the already powerfull pieces further.

Nothing that simply negates anything. Like Overwhelming force for example completely nullifies any defensive character.

Abilities that drag out battles more may be nice. The game is beginning to devolve into "1 activation = 1 kill". Which isn't fun. It woud be nice if having less than 100 hp didn't mean any tier 1 worthy piece can 1 shot you.

R5Don4 wrote:
#3 Lt. Page's recommended Mini is the Veteran Rebel Commando yet the Veteran Rebel Commando is one of only 4 minis with base 20 Damage that can benefit from his CE. Please admit this is a goof up and it was supposed to the A&E Rebel Commando who the Veteran Rebel Commando made completely obsolete on release.


It should have been Mercenary Commander. He looks like a Rebel Commando. He looks like a leader. He'd never be used in conjunction with commandos. Perfect reccomended mini.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 9:11 am 
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Handmaidens have 40 health that means pretty much any good melee piece one shots them. I don't see how thats overpowered. Tbsv cannon does pretty much the same thing that handmaidens do and they aren't OP.

Exar force ghost is a strong mini true. But think about the other 14 point strong mini in general riekan. I find him much more offensive. Exar and who he is haunting have to be in the fight while rieekan can just chill in a room with dodonna all game. I'll never dislike an ability thats used in the think of the battle. Ce's that are used far away from the fight annoy me.

Inquisitor broken? Seriously? I'm kind of sick of reading this on the boards. I mean use a little common sense and #1 don't let him draw Los to you without putting himself in danger #2 stick an uggie in the front. Boom! Strategy defeated.

I got a lot of these kinds of complaints from playtesters. And every single one was a complaint about a piece when they haven't played it yet (myself included). My advice is to play the new pieces and maybe try and develop a strategy against them. I'm getting a vibe that you haven't done that yet.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 12:04 pm 
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I can state for a fact that the handmaidens are NOT overpowered. They are very good when pumped all the way up, but in none of my matches at the regional did I think I had an auto-win. In rd 1 I killed 2 WEWs on a crazy line before they could get out of the starting area and if that hadn't happened I think I lose that game. Nom bombs is a horrible matchup and I put Matt in a serious pickle when I made him choose between losing his Nom and something else (I think it was his Yammosk and priest/Yim Yam) so another game I could have easily lost. I played against a standard NR squad and pulled it out although I lost 2 of the echanis but that was only because I killed mara before she got off a single assault. I split with Tim so another matchup that could go either way, and in the semifinals against yobuck I was able to lock his swapper in a room so he couldn't swap for one round and then he galloped into my R7 and missed with that being the game as he still couldn't swap out.

I would say echanis with atris are on par with TBSV being pumped up.

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