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 Post subject: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:56 am 
Master of the Order
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This is the place to discuss what you like and don't like about the V-Sets. Constructive criticism, please. Obviously, we don't have Rob's or WotC's resources at our disposal, but would like to know what players who use these cards think works and doesn't work to help us make even better sets of cards in the future.

Don't just say something is awesome or that it sucks, tell us why it is good or bad. Is it something you would change? Well then suggest that too. Is it perfect? Hey, this is the time to say so! :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:20 pm 
Warmaster
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For the most part, I liked set 1 a lot.

Personally I would have liked at lest 1 never seen before/brand new unique character for each faction. Old republic did not get any in set 1 as OR already had access to Bastila & Revan by way of the Jedi Crusader.

I know set two has 3 so far witch is good news, and hope all factions get at lest 1 brand new unique character.

Things I wish to see less off.
Any squad SA's or squad abilities given by way of Commander Effects.

Less automatic damage powers especially on characters like the Sith Inquisitor, my one BIG HATE from set 1. Also less abilities where your character joins the other team.

Things I would like to see more off.
More balance between melee and shooters on each faction.

I would also like to see factions get some needed basic abilities such as door control for the times when casual players do faction pure games, namely talking Yuuzhan Vong here

More thought to which characters belong on which faction. My point here is with LT. Page OK yes he was at the battle of Endor so yes could be Rebel, but he is far better known as a New Republic character, and was at least 10 years before it was mentioned about him been at Endor. Lt Page is not such a well known character and as such do members really want more than one version of him? If they do it's not so bad if we get a NR LT. Page later on, but if we are only going to get the one I would have preferred NR over a rebel version. I know not everyone will agree on that, so am just saying my opinion .



Anyway out of 10, I would give set 1 a 9/10. which is not bad for your first time doing a set. Not many WOTC sets got 9/10 from me. :D

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 5:38 pm 
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You guys have done a great job with the new set. It's amazing that you accomplished in one set what WOTC could not figure out even until the end of the game. How to balance pieces and factions. Not creating new pieces that nerf the old ones but instead something different, something fresh, and something that fits. I can't think of a single bad piece produced.

Only requests for next time is:

-not sure how feasible it is but would it cost anymore to print the card stats on both sides? Or even just a name? Something to reference which character it is even when looking from the back?
-more separatist Droids in the next one, as it stands they only have the lancer and the series two droideka (good job on that one) that is trouly tier 1. Boosts or complete do-overs for the faction that is all Droids would be nice. There's also enough Droid hunter and ion gun out now (except for the vong they need a hefty dose of the Droid hunter, since that's kind of their whole deal, hint hint Haraar)
-focusing on the faction flavors (you did a good job of it thus far but keep at it) the factions should be competitive yet feel and play differently. Don't be afraid to hand out new abilities to solidify this.
-also not sure how practical this or if this feedback is the appropriate venue for it but would a new faction ever fit into a vset? (Dathomiri, Hapan, Chiss, and Killik come to mind in that order of likelihood and practicality)
-please make huges accurate and playable. Whether through redos of old pieces or new commanders bring this "huge" part of the game back into play. I was hoping to see this for the first set but i will wait.

All in all its an effort to find anything to improve upon, you guys did a fantastic job and I hope to see more. You also accomplished what was sought out to do, balancing the other factions. Also final note, the best thing to happen to this game is when WOTC washed their hands of it.
Phenomenal new pieces, that have been balanced and tested. Actually listening to community input, and also a shout out to mapmaker, jedicartographer and armoredgear7 for the beautiful maps.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:04 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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GeneralGrievous wrote:
-not sure how feasible it is but would it cost anymore to print the card stats on both sides? Or even just a name? Something to reference which character it is even when looking from the back?


This would at least double the cost of printing. Thanks for the suggestion though.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:10 pm 
Droid Army Commander
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Feedback? Seems a little on the late side for this Dennis as Vset 1 has been out for six months and Vset 2 is completely set and ready to print. So that would be my first beef, if you wanted outside input why didn't you guys make this thread earlier? I've pretty much stayed on the player/audience side of the Vsets thus far so I don't see all the behind the scenes boards but you guys on the Vset Team, back when the game was still being officailly produced, were the life blood of the community message boards and I've got to tell you your presence is sorely missed on the regular message boards. I realize you personally have had quite a lot going on in your life and I realize real life takes over so I don't mean that as a slight to you directly. Sometimes it feels like everyone left in the community are involved in making the Vsets and there really aren't any regular members around to breathe the life into the boards like the old days when Boris the Dwarf would post thousand word post after thousand word post on various aspects of the game. And I realize for the last 7 (!) years of this game I've been pretty much just a background lurker but like I said real life takes over.

Keep in mind I had plenty of problems (way too many to list) with all of the Wizards official sets after Rebel Storm.
Anyway back to constructive criticism of DotF and what I've seen of R&R:

BEEFS

#1 Where is the Star Wars? WAY Too much EU and not nearly enough OT.

#2 By giving so much to the formerly known as the lesser Factions with the intentional "balance creep" pieces, and this will inevitably become more prevalent as the Vsets move forward, squads contain less and less of the old units. Of course this is going to happen most prevalently in the factions that were hardly given anything by Wizards in the first place. I understand this is a natural progression that has always been a part of this game but I love when new pieces bring new life to actual (Wizards era) old pieces. Not in the bang you over the head obvious way (Atris, Ferrier, Nikto Pirate) but like how you gave Nom new life pairing him up with Shimraa or Jaina and the Mando Captain. I can see the game being very confusing to play in person before too long where you might not know what the heck your opponent is playing by looking at the minis and relying on the cards.

#3 Lt. Page's recommended Mini is the Veteran Rebel Commando yet the Veteran Rebel Commando is one of only 4 minis with base 20 Damage that can benefit from his CE. Please admit this is a goof up and it was supposed to the A&E Rebel Commando who the Veteran Rebel Commando made completely obsolete on release.

#4 Not a fan of the look of the cards-sorry Les. Mainly the listed attribute names really do not need to be so large or even be the full words at this point, we know what the attributes are. The Mando cards look like black and white photocopies. The faction colors don't match the old card colors.

#5 Why isn't Jaster Mereel's CE boardwide? It is really lame that the Mando's have to rely on Mouse Droids for their Death Shots.

#6 At first glance I think a lot of it seems a bit over the top, but the Regionals will be a great indicator of whether this is actually true or not.

#7 Weenie spinning is still alive and well.

PROS

#1 The cards! I love that there are actually cards for the V-set. The magnificent quality of the card is wonderfully sturdy. The high gloss finish ensures years of durability.

#2 Jaster Mereel's Reinforcements and all the tech options the Mandos now have available. Reinforcements have always been a huge part of the game but it has almost exclusively been through the bald guy with the wrap around computer on his head. It is nice to have more in Faction Flavour available. I think the new Vader is a missed opportunity to access all the tech the Imperials have available that never gets used because they are so situationally specific.

#3 I've got a reason to buy minis again! I've never been a completeist. There was many a set where I did not ever buy a booster, as such, there are some older pieces that I'm buying now for the first time.

#4 I've got new squads to try out again! Always fun to try out different builds.

#5 60 piece set again. F*&$ YEAH! and R&R is turning out to be more like an 80 piece set! F*&$ YEAH! I was always jealous the DDM guys got a few 80 pieces sets.

#6 Epic minis! F*&$ YEAH! Another thing I was always jealous of those DDM guys for.


I've prattled on long enough for now. Hopefully I'll think of more to post later.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 5:47 am 
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With regards to Lt. Page, I agree he would have been better and more recognisable in the NR. But, there are no NR Commandos for him to work with.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:01 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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R5Don4 wrote:
Feedback? Seems a little on the late side for this Dennis as Vset 1 has been out for six months and Vset 2 is completely set and ready to print. So that would be my first beef, if you wanted outside input why didn't you guys make this thread earlier?



Umm do you think we are going to stop at 2 v-sets? Folks are starting to work on three. Once the set list is complete for V-Set III people will start working on V-Set IV

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:28 am 
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To some extent, I want to reserve the right to change anything I say here until after regionals. At this point, I've probably played ten "competitive" games and five "fun" games involving new stuff, so I'm still getting a feel for it. I'll have a stronger sense of what I think in six weeks.

STUFF I LIKE

*As far as the high-level game goes, I give this set a nine or ten out of ten. I think you added all sorts of cool new options to make factions playable at big tournaments that never were before (the fact that I'm actually contemplating running OR at a regional is nuts--the fact that I would certainly not be the only person running them is even nuttier). At the same time, it seems to me that there is probably a 30 percent chance that the squad that wins Gencon won't have a single DOTF mini in its base build. That, I think, is a good thing--the other squads I'm contemplating for Regionals are either spins on concepts, or simply the same concepts, as things that were all the over place in 2010.

*Love the durability of the cards.

*I think there are lots of pieces that offer interesting counters to existing strategies without necessarily nerfing existing strategies.

*Bastila JM, I think, is an absolute triumph of piece design. She makes a faction playable, but at the same time she is a totally new concept that fits the flavor of the faction and the character, rather than just "OR gets Wedge's commander effect now" or some such nonsense. This is also true, though I think to a lesser extent, of Bandon, Revan, and the Yammosk.

STUFF I DON'T LIKE

*The Mandos, as near as I can tell, are still a trick or two away. Jaster's a great piece, but when any faction with movement breakers can literally run circles around Mandos in terms of tactical movement on the board, it is hard to bring death shots to bear against any squad that can either A. deal with mouse droids easily (see Seps, Repub) or B. Disrupt easily (NR, Rebs, OR). The thing is, A. and B. cover about 90 percent of the squads one is likely to see. I think the Mandos made big leaps, but they're a trick or two away at this point (and I'm sure that someone who is privy to more info than I can say "wait until R&R," and hey, I hope that's true).

*Due to what I just wrote, I guarantee that Karma will cause me to lose the next eight games I play against Mandos. I take it all back--they are teh uber faction.

*In some ways, making the bad factions better was the easy part--they were so far behind that they could be improved a ton without any real power creep. The challenge, and what I can't wait to see, is the creation of pieces for the "main" factions that give us new squad concepts that bring in pieces that don't normally get played. Auto-includes for certain factions will always be auto-includes (Doombot, Dodonna, etc), but highly competitive Republic squads that don't rely on either General Skywalker or Yobuck, or highly competitive NR squads that do something other than "Ganner + whichever two of four 45-54 point pieces I decide to play + a third attacker costed in the 20's" would be cool. And, I imagine, difficult to design without altering the meta quite a bit.

*Some sort of counter to "ten no-point mouse droids" would be cool. Although, on the other hand, I just acquired my tenth mouse droid, so maybe hold off on this for a while.

*More "goofy" fun pieces. Ani and Padme and Reek is a hella-fun piece to build around for a pick-up game with a friend. Like to see more of that.

And, that's what I've got for now.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:30 am 
Master of the Order
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R5Don4 wrote:
Feedback? Seems a little on the late side for this Dennis as Vset 1 has been out for six months and Vset 2 is completely set and ready to print. So that would be my first beef, if you wanted outside input why didn't you guys make this thread earlier?


Realistically, this is the right time to post this thread, and May 1 was my target date for doing so all along unless someone else did it first. Six months is what is needed to give people plenty of time to play with the cards and give good analysis. If the thread had gone up in the first 2-3 weeks, the feedback would have been less tempered by experience and more knee-jerk initial reaction. Yes, V-Set 2 is nearly done, so none of the feedback here will have very much if any impact on it, but at least we can look at the response to V-Set 1 in this thread as suggestions for what to do in sets 3 and 4 (yes, they are in the works even as I type this).

Quote:
I've pretty much stayed on the player/audience side of the Vsets thus far so I don't see all the behind the scenes boards but you guys on the Vset Team, back when the game was still being officailly produced, were the life blood of the community message boards and I've got to tell you your presence is sorely missed on the regular message boards. I realize you personally have had quite a lot going on in your life and I realize real life takes over so I don't mean that as a slight to you directly. Sometimes it feels like everyone left in the community are involved in making the Vsets and there really aren't any regular members around to breathe the life into the boards like the old days when Boris the Dwarf would post thousand word post after thousand word post on various aspects of the game. And I realize for the last 7 (!) years of this game I've been pretty much just a background lurker but like I said real life takes over.


Thanks for the compliment. I do miss posting stuff in the general community section of the boards, but honestly when I come to Gamers these days I typically have no fewer than 20 threads to sort through regarding design, and by the time I finish reading and/or responding, my free time is all used up. I am taking a break from design on V-Set 3, so you will probably see me posting more in the general section. Of course, as you said real life happens and it has definitely taken a toll on me over the last year.

Yes, "weenie spinning is still alive and well," and that is something we are working on. It's not an easy problem to solve. Rob tried, and he just made it worse.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:47 am 
Droid Army Commander
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buttcabbge wrote:
STUFF I DON'T LIKE

*The Mandos, as near as I can tell, are still a trick or two away. Jaster's a great piece, but when any faction with movement breakers can literally run circles around Mandos in terms of tactical movement on the board, it is hard to bring death shots to bear against any squad that can either A. deal with mouse droids easily (see Seps, Repub) or B. Disrupt easily (NR, Rebs, OR). The thing is, A. and B. cover about 90 percent of the squads one is likely to see. I think the Mandos made big leaps, but they're a trick or two away at this point (and I'm sure that someone who is privy to more info than I can say "wait until R&R," and hey, I hope that's true).

*Due to what I just wrote, I guarantee that Karma will cause me to lose the next eight games I play against Mandos. I take it all back--they are teh uber faction.

*In some ways, making the bad factions better was the easy part--they were so far behind that they could be improved a ton without any real power creep. The challenge, and what I can't wait to see, is the creation of pieces for the "main" factions that give us new squad concepts that bring in pieces that don't normally get played. Auto-includes for certain factions will always be auto-includes (Doombot, Dodonna, etc), but highly competitive Republic squads that don't rely on either General Skywalker or Yobuck, or highly competitive NR squads that do something other than "Ganner + whichever two of four 45-54 point pieces I decide to play + a third attacker costed in the 20's" would be cool. And, I imagine, difficult to design without altering the meta quite a bit.

*Some sort of counter to "ten no-point mouse droids" would be cool. Although, on the other hand, I just acquired my tenth mouse droid, so maybe hold off on this for a while.

*More "goofy" fun pieces. Ani and Padme and Reek is a hella-fun piece to build around for a pick-up game with a friend. Like to see more of that.

And, that's what I've got for now.


You make some great points BC and I agree with all of them. They seem to be about the overall game though and I think that means the Vset dudes have done their job well.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:49 am 
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wannabemexican wrote:
With regards to Lt. Page, I agree he would have been better and more recognisable in the NR. But, there are no NR Commandos for him to work with.



Well the idea is to make some or better still Lt Page as the leader of the Katarn Commando's and as they are all unique would have like 1 member added with each new set. Same really for the members of Rogue Squadren, 1 or 2 each set but any CE's perfific from them. Yes should be useable outside of the team/squadren but better used as a team.

Still that is not happening,
I am just saying my thoughts and giving my feedback, not expecting everyone to agree. as this thread will soon show as more and more post, very few will agree with many others on a subject like this.

EDIT
One thing in my first post that i forgot to say was I really liked the balance between the factions.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:57 am 
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dreadtech wrote:
wannabemexican wrote:
With regards to Lt. Page, I agree he would have been better and more recognisable in the NR. But, there are no NR Commandos for him to work with.



Well the idea is to make some or better still Lt Page as the leader of the Katarn Commando's and as they are all unique would have like 1 member added with each new set. Same really for the members of Rogue Squadren, 1 or 2 each set but any CE's perfific from them. Yes should be useable outside of the team/squadren but better used as a team.

Still that is not happening,
I am just saying my thoughts and giving my feedback, not expecting everyone to agree. as this thread will soon show as more and more post, very few will agree with many others on a subject like this.


I mentioned this to Sashlon and he said Page could have rapport for rebel commandos, but then again that is easy to say. It would need lots of play testing.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Are the Katarn Commandos really worth making into Uniques? I didn't even realise they had given them unique names (assuming the Rebel Strike Team isn't Katarn's Commandos). In the end, making Page NR would've required making more pieces for the NR than what they needed for the first set. The first set's goal was to make a large leap toward balancing the factions.

I have a few minor nitpicks. But for the most part, they did a good job. The game is pretty fun right now, with all factions pretty much all very solidly having teir 1.5 builds, with them being very close to being top tier.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:41 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:


You make some great points BC and I agree with all of them. They seem to be about the overall game though and I think that means the Vset dudes have done their job well.


Oh, I agree whole-heartedly. Looking back at my original post I might not have been clear enough about this, but I really think the V-Set designers did an amazing job. I've been playing the game since I bought a Rebel Storm booster for RPG figs back in 2004, and right now I'm more excited about the game than I've ever been in the previous seven years--that, I think, is the best testament I can give to how good a job I think they did on the V-Sets.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:54 pm 
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I have really enjoyed the new figures, espcially some of the demoltionist that gave us access to satchel charge for thos of us that do not have a 20 uggies. I really like what the addtiona l flavor we have with the minor factions. I really love the vong though I have yet to actually win a game with a vong squad yet.

What I wold like to see is something that makes combined fire and troop build more viable as a comptitive solution. An army of Tuskens, wookiees, clone/storm/rebel with their running around wiping stuff out. It makes me think of the NR novel where Leia I think witness some stormies just totally taking out an oppostion force and their armor actually holding up. Her thought was 'these are not my fathers stormtrooper.' They were better trained and organized.

2nd thing i would like to see is a fleshing out and creation of some sub factions, Black Sun, Jabba Criminal Organization, Kota's Militia, Death Watch. I envision a world where there was a CE that was amazing but was limited to only squads that were fringe pure. Something that gives Fringe it's own Bounty Hunter tricks that make them competitive on thier own.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:02 pm 
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I like the Trophies Engineer has been making (finally won me one at Marmalade Dog).

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:14 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I like the Trophies Engineer has been making (finally won me one at Marmalade Dog).


RULES VIOLATION: posting in the wrong thread. Yellow Card!

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Personally, I truly think the game has never been better! The "balance creep" of DotF was exactly what the game needed, IMHO (now all we need is a bigger nerf for tempo control squads). The meta is more wide-open now than ever before, and it is great to see people bring competitive OR and Mando squads to tournaments!

My favorite pieces from DotF:
-Revan--self-swapping is genius
-Bastilla--finally, Battle Meditation the way it's supposed to work!
-Yammosk--auto-include in all Vong squads going forward, and great flavor too
-Jaina--Triple and GMA on a melee fig is so valuable, and being Speedy and Parry-y makes her one of my faves
-Salacious Crumb--SO useful, in a variety of builds

My favorites from R&R:
-oops, can't mention them yet :)

I think the V-sets are the best thing to happen to this game since the invention of plastic and custom maps!

Azavander wrote:
What I wold like to see is something that makes combined fire and troop build more viable as a comptitive solution. An army of Tuskens, wookiees, clone/storm/rebel with their running around wiping stuff out. It makes me think of the NR novel where Leia I think witness some stormies just totally taking out an oppostion force and their armor actually holding up. Her thought was 'these are not my fathers stormtrooper.' They were better trained and organized.

From my experience, the difficulty with using Spotter figs is that you have to move them one round, and then, if they survive until the next round and if your opponent is bone-headed enough to leave a piece within 6 of them, they can CF the next round. In addition, most figs with Spotter have 10-20 hp, so you can't just put them out there and hope they'll survive.

One idea for a CE which could make Combined Fire more effective:
Non-unique allies with Spotter gain Intuition.

But if all the Spotter figs had Intuition, then their low hp wouldn't matter, and your opponent would have to work a LOT harder to protect his pieces from the Spotter range, which means that you'd actually be able to reliably use Spotter and Flanking Support in a competitive game.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:13 pm 
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Great thread Dennis :D

Here are my very disorganised thoughts:

My beefs with DOTF:
* We couldn't produce minis (of course that's got NOTHING to do with design, I just miss getting new minis)
* Atris, her Force Meditation strikes me as the most problematic piece of design in DOTF. Although I will admit it has turned out to be less abusive than I feared.
* Personally, I would have mad Lt. Page NR, given him rapport for 'commandos' from the Rebel faction and given the NR veteran trooper the Commando SA.
* Sora Bulq is undercosted IMO.


What I like about DOTF:
* The community involvement.
* The cards are spectacular - Leshippy you rock!
* New concenpts, Bastila, Revan, Revanchist and the Yammosk are probably the best (but not the only) examples of this, improving factions with new concepts to the game so they play differently.
* Balance creep. I have played a lot with DOTF, and I love how OR, Sith, Mandos and Vong are now so much tougher to beat and more attractive to use.
* New Abilities. I love all the shiny new toys we got, and how well thought out a lot of the are. My personal favorite is Jedi Reflexes.
* Playtesting. I think the amount of care that has gone into both v-sets so far is truly impressive.

Roll on the future!

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 Post subject: Re: V-Set feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 5:34 pm 
Warmaster
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:15 pm
Posts: 690
Sithborg wrote:
Are the Katarn Commandos really worth making into Uniques? I didn't even realise they had given them unique names (assuming the Rebel Strike Team isn't Katarn's Commandos). In the end, making Page NR would've required making more pieces for the NR than what they needed for the first set. The first set's goal was to make a large leap toward balancing the factions.

I have a few minor nitpicks. But for the most part, they did a good job. The game is pretty fun right now, with all factions pretty much all very solidly having teir 1.5 builds, with them being very close to being top tier.



Cannot agree with you here, even if Page was NR and had a CE just for the Katarn Commando's does not mean you needed to add more in the first set. A good example of this is with Ulic Qel-Droma who had a CE for mandalorions, but there were not any mando's until the set after.

Anyway Page was made Rebel and have to live with that.

As for the other Katarn Commando's they are.

Kyle Katarn (original team leader, Jedi)
Kaiya Adrimetrum (Female Human)
Lilla Dade (Female Human, Pathfinder)
Idow
Gottu
Syla Tors (female Human Pilot, former Corellian pirate)
Vandro (Heavy weapons and repulsorlift specialist)
Frorral ( Female wookie)
Keleman Ciro (Human,died in The DarkStryder Campaign)
Korron
Jortan (male human, Medical technician)
Mian Hoob (Sullustan)
Bri'vin
Kasck (Male Bothan, infiltrator and shadow)
Kell Tainer (Male Human went on to become a member of Wraith Squadron)

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