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 Post subject: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:15 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Darth Vader, Agent of Evil = 65 points.

Given he has a 1 in 5 chance of getting another 20 points of beefed up troopers per round, and teaming him up with recon, gives him a 2 in 5 chance per round, I think the new Vader is completely undercosted.

My games last more than 10 rounds, so with average initiative rolls as above, you're essentially going to get Vader for free and bunches of supertroopers. Am i missing something here? Isn't he going to be the best Vader ever, and cause a whole heap of grief over his point costing? He'd be good enough without the reinforcement ability for 65 points

Rolling 2,7,12 or 17 for 20 extra points of troopers - Maybe this should be just the roll a 7 for the extra points?


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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:30 am 
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This wasn't an issue in playtesting. Vader brings in 10-20hp pieces ( that cost points) if they use the abilities vader gives them they get one shotted.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:30 am 
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when the troopers die your opponent gets points for them. Most the troopers he can bring in will be able to attack once then die.
Odds are you have Vader,Thrawn,Mas thats 105 right there. Then add in a second attacker,troopers,door control maybe ozzel or recon the points add up fast. I say you can play him in some tier two builds but he is no where near tier 1. If you really want to get the reserves to work your only real attacker outside of the troopers is vader. This vader cant hold his own like a Lord vader can.

If I wanted to play a reserve team and didnt care about troopers I would go with kazdan 75% over Vader. Kazdan can has alot more stuff he can bring in to counter builds. With kazdan you kind of can control the points but with vader the troopers are just going to attack once and die for the most part. Even in a kill them all game its still vader and troopers. In a Kazdan build if kazdan dies you can still win most the time but if vader dies odds are your done.

Kill vader and 2 reserves 8 rounds of gambit thats all most 140 points just right there.

Yes Vader has LD but Kazdan has suprise move,block deflect then Qui gives him six more force when he dies. He can bring in bodyguards where Vader cant.

Vader brings in troopers then they die like in the movies.


Last edited by jonnyb815 on Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:31 am 
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I am sure the designers will pipe in soon enough, but I played a game against this Vader during the play testing. Needless to say he didn't actually make any of the reserves rolls. So in that game, he was decidedly not undercosted. I also think that in that game he only costed 60 points. So yeah, it depends on whether you make the rolls or not.

Some games are won or lost by either lucky or unlucky rolling. It is the one aspect of the game we can't entirely control. The risk with using this Vader is whether or not you will make many reserves rolls. The pay off of getting 10 rounds worth of stormies can easily be negated by then not getting any reserves in the next game.


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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:37 am 
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Not really. Keep in mind that stuff you bring in is worth victory points to your opponent, and none of the options are really beefy. So your opponent could easily just kill the 20 points of troopers you bring in and win on points.

He was playtested pretty extensively. He IS a very good piece, and actually makes some Trooper builds playable, but is not undercosted.

The trick about reserves is that for the piece to be played, it HAS to be good if you never roll the reserves. What if your opponent brings in a Muun Tactics Broker? Or what if he has NTMTO, so you don't get Recon, so now you're back to just your 20% chance to get it each round. Some games will go by where you never get reserves. Those can't be auto-losses, or the figure will be way overcosted. That's why Kazdan doesn't see any really competitive play; his Reserves are sweet, but if you don't ever get them, Kazdan kinda sucks for his cost.

Vader is strong without getting Reserves, but not quite worth the 65 points. If you manage to get 4+ sets of Reserves in a game, Lady Luck is on your side, congratulations. If you get the more common 1-2 sets of Reserves per game, Vader is a strong piece that makes troopers much more playable but is not overpowered or unbeatable.


Also, while you do have a 1 in 5 chance (20%) to get Reserves with no modifications, you don't have a 2 in 5 chance (40%) to get it with Recon. That's not how the math works. It's 80%(chance of not getting it on the first roll)*80%(chance of not getting it on the second roll)=64% (chance to not get it on either roll). 1-0.64=36% chance to get it on one of the two rolls. Slightly, but appreciably, lower.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:48 am 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
In a Kazdan build if kazdan dies you can still win most the time but if vader dies odds are your done.

Yes Vader has LD but Kazdan has suprise move,block deflect then Qui gives him six more force when he dies. He can bring in bodyguards where Vader cant.


That's going to be partially cause Kazdan represents a smaller portion of your points being dedicated to the 'bring in mass reserves' plan of the squad. Also, while this Vader wont hold up in melee against serious beats, against the rest of them, he ought to be able to hold his own decently enough.

QuiGon should be a non issue, as now your making it a matter of which faction has better support for a squad built around the 'bring in mass reserves' idea, not how Vader compares to Kazdan.

While I havent playtested this thing in the least, I think he's probably about on par with what he should be.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:25 am 
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Cry when you face Yobuck or Lancer?

Seriously, most of what he can bring can be one shotted by a lot of things now a days. And those better figs, he can only bring one in, and not much else. At best, he can bring in 4 Stormtroopers. Compared to Kazden, he doesn't have nearly the versatility in what he can bring in. You pretty much have to build the support into the squads, meaning those commanders could potentially be wasted points.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:51 am 
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Disturbed1 wrote:
Also, while this Vader wont hold up in melee against serious beats, against the rest of them, he ought to be able to hold his own decently enough.


Sure about that? He's got LSD, Riposte, Sith Rage 2, and MOTF 2 with lots of HP.

His DEF is a little low, but considering he has the Reserves and a CE, that seems to be a balancing factor for his cost. He's not exactly what I would have expected in this set, but I'll have fun playing with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:20 am 
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Jester007 wrote:
Sure about that? He's got LSD, Riposte, Sith Rage 2, and MOTF 2 with lots of HP.


*insert joke about Vader on LSD*

I actually forgot about the Defense power he had, so your probably right. Really, that just helps my earlier point though. You dont lose cause you lost Kazdan, cause hes fewer points and he sucks by himself. You lose if you lose Vader (or are more likely to) cause he is more points and he is good in his own right.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:30 am 
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Vader's power comes from the combination of buffs he has for troopers, added in with other commanders.

Since the troopers will get dropped at the beginning of a round, Mithrawn's Opp doesn't really come into play. A strong build will allow the reserves that Vader brings in to hit hard once and early, and then accept their death.

Good early round reserves could be:
-Elite Stormtrooper
-Elite Snowtrooper
-Heavy Stormtrooper

allowing you do do 40-60 damage pretty reliably.

other good choices:
Sandtroopers + Sandtrooper Officer = careful +6, deadeye, double, squad assault = +14 for 30 twice.
Snowtroopers + Snowtrooper Commander = careful +6, double, +4 att, squad assault = +18 for 20 twice
Stormtrooper + Grand Admiral Thrawn + Rodian Hunt Master = careful +6, double, deadeye, +3 att = +13 for 20 twice, from a 5 point piece.

This Vader also makes you choose between Thrawns.. do you want Swap and Opp, or Swap and +3/+3 for your troopers? Given that reserves pop at the start of a round, Mithrawn might not be the best option..plus Ysalamiri. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:42 am 
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GA Thrawn is the better option for Trooper squads. Especially since you won't have IC's Def boost. If you really want Opportunist, use Piett.

That's another interesting thing about this Vader. You need to build more of your support into the squad, than Kazden. Most of the best things for Droids has to be brought in via Reserves, but since he brings in more points and those are cheaper it's not an issue. You need to plan ahead on how you want to boost your troopers. You don't want to waste your first Reserves bringing in one commander (though I think you can only bring in followers, I need to double check). Decide which Trooper you are bringing in, and plan accordingly.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:52 am 
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"Imperial trooper characters" - should include commanders, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:07 am 
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I strongly prefer Kaz if I'm playing Reserves.

The difference between Immediate 20 and Immediate 30 is pretty big. But I think the bigger issue is versatility of what he can bring in. Vader can just bring Trooper grunts and Trooper commanders, very limited ability to tailor the Reserves to what you are facing.

Kaz needs activations, he can bring up to 15 mouse droids. Vader can bring 4 stormtroopers.
Kaz needs to kill activations, he can bring a Lancer. Vader has no access to Strafe.
Kaz needs to concentrate a lot of damage on one character with one activation, he can bring an LR-57, or maybe an EG-05, etc. Vader's best bet is a double attacking Heavy Stormtrooper which just isn't as good an option.
Kaz needs more Recon, he can bring a probe droid. Vader has no access to Recon.
Kaz needs more door control, he can bring R7's for Override. Vader has no access to any form of door control.
Kaz needs a damage sink or a quick "lift" out of harm's way, he can bring a T1. Vader has no such options.
Kaz needs to deactivate superstealth, he can bring Treadwells or RA-7's.
Kaz needs a bodyguard... etc.

Vader builds won't be as versatile, but Vader's Reserves can act as swap fodder, and they come in with some pretty nice boosts on their own.

Unless the Imps get a lot more versatile Troopers in this next set, I'm not that excited about this guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:22 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Disturbed1 wrote:
*insert joke about Vader on LSD*


LOL, didn't even think about that when I made my post. But is does explain how he gives the Troopers Careful Shot +6 and Double.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:13 pm 
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I tinkered around with some of the very early versions of the concept - a lot of which I proposed in the first draft - and found him to be better than Dark Jedi and Imperial Commander variants but worse than Lord Vader and Jedi Hunter. Even with Immediate Reserves, what was said about his CE was correct: the troopers just don't live long enough, and you rack up a lot of points really quick. One well-placed missile or grenade can ruin your day really quick.

And I originally priced the stat block at 55. Of course, that was before the addition of things like Sith Rage 2 and Master of the Force 2.

I didn't get the chance to playtest the final version of the stat block, but I think 65 is a fair cost. The thing I like most about this piece is that it reintroduces older Imperial figures back into the game. You can't just swap this guy out for Lord Vader in a traditional Ozzel build with IE Thrawn. And don't forget there are 59 other pieces in this set that alter the game in different ways that make this guy more important for the Empire.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:05 pm 
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I'd be building an old school Vader IC squad with this guy (Mithrawn is a misake). Troopers need the +3/3 much more than opportunist, and Vader himself can reach the critical 80 dmg without opp.

Personally, I'd go something like:
Vader 65
Thrawn 37
Mas 8
Ozzell (one more reserve number) 11
That's 121. Fill out the rest for with your favorite troopers, but make sure to get at least 17-18 activations to start with. Piett is a good choice here, for both opp and recon. Although there's another piece in RaR that I can't mention that will work well in these squads. Lobot (15pt with recon and reserves version) is a better choice to old Lobot here as well.

I believe these types of builds to be superior to a mitthrawn, but not to a more typicall LV opp B&B. As Dennis said, better than old decent trooper squads, but probably in the tier 2 range. Which is about where Kazdan droid squads fall out as well. Really good when you get the reserves, ok if you don't. This one is better than Kaz if you don't get any, but the reserve options themselves are not nearly as powerful either.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:50 pm 
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yeah and lobot allows you to bring in Rodian BSV's who also have reserves. Now i can Build my Spawn Squad in imperial too , awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:33 pm 
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Wondering what General Mohc is gonna do for the Darktroopers. (make them eligible for CEs would be handy)

Stormtrooper Advance Scout sounds like a stealthy Recon guy.

And there is the elusive #31 to consider.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:22 am 
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Thanks for all the responses. This has opened my eyes a lot and I see more clearly now how he was costed and some of the drawbacks he brings.


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 Post subject: Re: Darth Vader, Free Agent of Evil
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:52 am 
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Admittedly I havn't seen this new Vader in action, however I like the look of this one. Sith Rage 2 seems a bit powerfull but the game is already not without similar abilities.

I really like the trooper focus of this one. I think It's cool to see a figure that makes the empire LOOK like the Empire ya know? And after Palpatine and Vader, what do you think of when you think of the Empire? Stormtroopers! (assuming they weren't the first thing to come to mind.)

I also like the style of play this vader encourages. It's not another "sombody gets twin attack or greater mobile or evade!" clone. It also encourages a style of play we don't see very often these days. No hiding with stealth or mobile. No dodging. They stand there and fight till they or the enemy are dead. It feels Imperial doesn't it?

The twin attacking lightsaber assaulting overwhelming force vader never really felt like vader to me. Twin attack never felt right on him. Vader isn't about rushing up to sombody and beating em in a flurry of gracefull or frenzied blows. He's walks up to them ominously and swings with power and inevitability.

And overwhelming force always struck me as a pretty dirty move. I am happy to see this vader without it.

I don't play darkside but I know what I should be fighting. And this feels like the enemy I expect to face when fighting the Empire.

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