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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:24 am 
Black Sun Thug
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Odd. My last post never got posted...

Well anyways I think my biggest fear right now is that my beloved Senate Commandos get obsoleted any farther. This most recent preview really has me feeling down.

I mean this General Weir guy is baisically Argyus but with doctorine of fear, stealth and gives his guys shields instead of Close Quarters. Oh, and he's 1 point cheaper.

I used to try and rationalize the coolness of my senate commandos like "They barely have any special abilities but at least they can really dish out the damage." And that was how I felt it was balanced. My Commandos have few tricks but a lot of brute force. Then the handmaidens got Atris. Now the Storm Commandos get Weir. Everybody's damage output is catching up to my senate commandos except they all get nice defensive abilities to back it up. It has me somewhat worried.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:00 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
Odd. My last post never got posted...

Well anyways I think my biggest fear right now is that my beloved Senate Commandos get obsoleted any farther. This most recent preview really has me feeling down.

I mean this General Weir guy is baisically Argyus but with doctorine of fear, stealth and gives his guys shields instead of Close Quarters. Oh, and he's 1 point cheaper.

I used to try and rationalize the coolness of my senate commandos like "They barely have any special abilities but at least they can really dish out the damage." And that was how I felt it was balanced. My Commandos have few tricks but a lot of brute force. Then the handmaidens got Atris. Now the Storm Commandos get Weir. Everybody's damage output is catching up to my senate commandos except they all get nice defensive abilities to back it up. It has me somewhat worried.



I don't think any of this makes Senate Commandos any worse at all. Republic still has incredibly good support for pieces like that. They can get Death Shots (Storm Commandos can't), they have the 2 best movement breakers in the game (R2-AD and Swap) so you actually can get your Close Quarters Fighting, and they just have higher attack and damage output, which isn't situational like the Storm Commando's Cunning Attack. They also have support like GOWK.

Senate Commandos have been decidedly better than Storm Commandos since the release of Argyus; now Storm Commandos can compete with them. I don't think it's fair at all to complain about another squad type getting help to be as good as your favorite squad type; just because you like something doesn't mean it should be the best thing around. Weir will bring Storm Commandos to parity with Senate Commandos, I doubt that he will cause the Storm Commandos to seriously overtake them and all of the sudden if you are plating Senate Commandos and your opponent is playing Storm Commandos that your opponent has a huge advantage.

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Congrats Jim, this quote has the honor of being the first and only thing in my signature here. Very well stated.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:25 am 
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Echo wrote:
of this makes Senate Commandos any worse at all. Republic still has incredibly good support for pieces like that. They can get Death Shots (Storm Commandos can't), they have the 2 best movement breakers in the game (R2-AD and Swap) so you actually can get your Close Quarters Fighting, and they just have higher attack and damage output, which isn't situational like the Storm Commando's Cunning Attack. They also have support like GOWK.

Senate Commandos have been decidedly better than Storm Commandos since the release of Argyus; now Storm Commandos can compete with them. I don't think it's fair at all to complain about another squad type getting help to be as good as your favorite squad type; just because you like something doesn't mean it should be the best thing around. Weir will bring Storm Commandos to parity with Senate Commandos, I doubt that he will cause the Storm Commandos to seriously overtake them and all of the sudden if you are plating Senate Commandos and your opponent is playing Storm Commandos that your opponent has a huge advantage.


They already have cunning. Thrawn gives em opportunist. thats effectively 20 base damage. 30 with deadeye at +10 with twin and double. That right there already beats Senate Commandos at their specialty. Then these guys have stealth, shields, grenades, satchel charge. And all for 3 points less. With a better commander costing 1 point less on top of that.

Senate commandos can have GOWK, true. But Storm Commandos get greater mobile from TBSV, Superstealth and a situational +10 damage from Nyna. They can outdo Panaka with Thrawn, Jetpack obi-wan with Vader.

As I read that preview I shed a single tear as I percieved the death of my favorite thing in starwars minis. If Senate Commandos don't get any help now, I fear they will spend the rest of my SWM career on the bench between my Kashyyyk Troopers and my Galactic Alliance Troopers. A very depressing thought.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:48 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
Echo wrote:
of this makes Senate Commandos any worse at all. Republic still has incredibly good support for pieces like that. They can get Death Shots (Storm Commandos can't), they have the 2 best movement breakers in the game (R2-AD and Swap) so you actually can get your Close Quarters Fighting, and they just have higher attack and damage output, which isn't situational like the Storm Commando's Cunning Attack. They also have support like GOWK.

Senate Commandos have been decidedly better than Storm Commandos since the release of Argyus; now Storm Commandos can compete with them. I don't think it's fair at all to complain about another squad type getting help to be as good as your favorite squad type; just because you like something doesn't mean it should be the best thing around. Weir will bring Storm Commandos to parity with Senate Commandos, I doubt that he will cause the Storm Commandos to seriously overtake them and all of the sudden if you are plating Senate Commandos and your opponent is playing Storm Commandos that your opponent has a huge advantage.


They already have cunning. Thrawn gives em opportunist. thats effectively 20 base damage. 30 with deadeye at +10 with twin and double. That right there already beats Senate Commandos at their specialty. Then these guys have stealth, shields, grenades, satchel charge. And all for 3 points less. With a better commander costing 1 point less on top of that.

Senate commandos can have GOWK, true. But Storm Commandos get greater mobile from TBSV, Superstealth and a situational +10 damage from Nyna. They can outdo Panaka with Thrawn, Jetpack obi-wan with Vader.

As I read that preview I shed a single tear as I percieved the death of my favorite thing in starwars minis. If Senate Commandos don't get any help now, I fear they will spend the rest of my SWM career on the bench between my Kashyyyk Troopers and my Galactic Alliance Troopers. A very depressing thought.


But again, Senate Commandos can get Death Shots and access to R2, plus GOWK and GM Yoda. They can also get Squad Assault or Mobile Attack. Senate Commandos have access to a TON of good CEs, much more than Storm Commandos. They also have a much better stat line, so against Disruptive or Bastila (or just after some commanders start dying) they can actually hold their own, where Storm Commandos have more trouble (50 HP over 40 HP is a huge benefit).

Honestly though, Senate Commandos have always been a tier 2 squad. If the you are playing in an enviornment where they have been competitive in the past, I don't see that changing much. Even if you do believe that Storm Commandos have now overtaken the Senate Commandos in power, that's a tiny shift in the overall balance of the game which will probably be felt by very few people. Senate Commandos will remain a tier 2 squad, but now Storm Commandos will be tier 2 as well, when before they were worse than tier 2. That is one purpose of the v-sets and will continue to happen with each set, and in fact there are a few more similar situations in R&R. The meta will change some with every set, as it should to prevent the game from getting boring. You might enjoy just playing a single squad type, but most prefer variety. For example, I hated it when I started building NR squads that didn't include Kyle Katarn JBM (one of my favorite minis in the game), but I felt that the meta shifted in a way that have made Han GH a better choice. However, I enjoy the fact that the meta has changed, so I'm not playing the same squad at Regionals this year as I did last year. That helps keep the game interesting.

Like I said, though, I don't see your success with Senate Commandos changing much. If you've done well with them in the past, you will probably continue doing well with them. If you have done poorly with them, nothing that I know of in the pipe will be boosting them. Who knows, though, maybe v-set 3 will have something.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:02 am 
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This was an interesting thread to read right up until that last post. Now it's a fanboy crying that we aren't helping his favorite pieces (which don't need any help mind you)better. Bottom line is storm commandos have been out for a while and needed a boost to become playable, so they got it. What on earth could we give senate commandos that's better then what they already have access to? +4/+4, opp, deathshots, swap, tow cable, momentum, twin, close quarters fighting, mobile attack, squad assault, report so they cost 1 less. I mean geez dude those guys are pretty stacked as is.

Storm commandos have very little access to ce's pre-weir. They pick either opp or +3/+3 with swap and can get superstealth, accurite, twin from the czerka. So really all they get that's new is shields 2. Which btw your senate commandos can get through pretty easy with their 30 base damage. Your guys also do 60 on the run where sc's do 40. So I'm just not seeing why this is a end of the world senario. Storm commandos become playable and your favorite squad still probably beats them.....ya that's worth whining about.

If you'd like more "senate" pieces for argyus to run with that's fine. Complaining about the design team making stuff THE COMMUNITY asked for is just childish and silly. A much better approach would be to head over to the requests for new minis thread and post hat you would like to see. That thread gets looked at and ideas drawn from for each set.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:12 am 
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Weeks wrote:
This was an interesting thread to read right up until that last post.


This.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:21 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
As I read that preview I shed a single tear as I percieved the death of my favorite thing in starwars minis. If Senate Commandos don't get any help now, I fear they will spend the rest of my SWM career on the bench between my Kashyyyk Troopers and my Galactic Alliance Troopers. A very depressing thought.


I don't believe this to be true in anyway.

Weir himself may look sweet, and he is. I made him a power 8-9 out of 10. He was a very cool character and much like Captain Rex in terms of being an upfront nasty battle field attacker and commander. That's how I made him. But he's boosting figures that were barely tier 2-3 support figures in the current meta up to the possibility of making a Tier 2 squad. That's an improvement, but it doesn't surpass or replace Senate Commando squads, which were already a solid Tier 2 squad design.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:50 am 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
If a piece is not broken at the highest level of competition, it isn't broken.

QFT

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:37 pm 
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And just becuase Senate Guards/Commandos don't get a boost in this set, doesn't mean they will never get a boost.

And don't forget General Skywalker's Momentum, absolutely PERFECT for shield breaking.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Yeah, Gen Skywalker with Senate Commandos and Argyus is a really fun squad to play! Two attacks at +17 for 80dmg from a 20pt piece? Ok! :saber:
Add Queenie for mobility and rapport help (Rodian Diplomats are helpful in this squad), and you've got a very competitive squad. I'm not really sure what else these guys need, other than Shields 30 and Regeneration 20. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:55 pm 
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I am now being quoted by our national champion. Either I am awesome, or I just have a tier one mouth.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:12 pm 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
I am now being quoted by our national champion. Either I am awesome, or I just have a tier one mouth.

Cant you be both awesome and have a tier one mouth?

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
This was an interesting thread to read right up until that last post. Now it's a fanboy crying that we aren't helping his favorite pieces (which don't need any help mind you)better.


No need to be rude about it. My intent was simply to pick a similar costed unit in order to better illustrate the power creep I think I see in this. My Senate Commandos happened to fill that role nicely and obviously were on my mind so whats wrong with that?

Weeks wrote:
Bottom line is storm commandos have been out for a while and needed a boost to become playable, so they got it. What on earth could we give senate commandos that's better then what they already have access to? +4/+4, opp, deathshots, swap, tow cable, momentum, twin, close quarters fighting, mobile attack, squad assault, report so they cost 1 less. I mean geez dude those guys are pretty stacked as is.


Well for the record Storm Commandos cost 3 points cheaper by default, have access to superstealth, master tactician, accurate shot and greater mobile. I'm just sayin. I'd take super steath and greater mobile over any of those.

Weeks wrote:
Storm commandos have very little access to ce's pre-weir. They pick either opp or +3/+3 with swap and can get superstealth, accurite, twin from the czerka. So really all they get that's new is shields 2. Which btw your senate commandos can get through pretty easy with their 30 base damage. Your guys also do 60 on the run where sc's do 40. So I'm just not seeing why this is a end of the world senario. Storm commandos become playable and your favorite squad still probably beats them.....ya that's worth whining about.


80 actually if you wana throw in some vigos. But thats my point. These guys have a LOT of defensive abilities to fall back on. In order for balance they should either deal lots of damage or be very hard to kill or just a little of both. Storm Commandos now have some of the most powerfull defensive abilities in the game mixed with damage that has the potential to match the previous highest damage non-uniques who were balanced by having 0 defensive abilities themselves and only cheap access to mobile as a back-up.

Weeks wrote:
If you'd like more "senate" pieces for argyus to run with that's fine. Complaining about the design team making stuff THE COMMUNITY asked for is just childish and silly. A much better approach would be to head over to the requests for new minis thread and post hat you would like to see. That thread gets looked at and ideas drawn from for each set.


Yeah, I aready suggested Isaru Omin and plan on suggesting Captain Jayfon. The problem is that I can't find the comics Isaru was in. All I know of him I know from his page in wookieepedia which is quite limited. He sounds like a very cool character though.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Isaru_Omin

I'm not out to buff Senate Commandos though, really. I think they are fun the way they are. I'm just trying to be vigilant about power creep. Though with pieces like this coming out, perhaps Senate Commandos will need a boost in the near future to stay playable.

billiv15 wrote:
Weir himself may look sweet, and he is. I made him a power 8-9 out of 10. He was a very cool character and much like Captain Rex in terms of being an upfront nasty battle field attacker and commander. That's how I made him. But he's boosting figures that were barely tier 2-3 support figures in the current meta up to the possibility of making a Tier 2 squad. That's an improvement, but it doesn't surpass or replace Senate Commando squads, which were already a solid Tier 2 squad design.


Compare him to Argyus (a super rare of comparable cost, purpose and stats) though. Surely you can see a serious difference in power level. Don't you think Wier is at least a bit undercosted?

Sithborg wrote:
And just becuase Senate Guards/Commandos don't get a boost in this set, doesn't mean they will never get a boost.

And don't forget General Skywalker's Momentum, absolutely PERFECT for shield breaking.


I just found that one recently. Been having fun with it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:10 pm 
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The thing you have to remember, is that the Senates are paying a lot for that 30 Dam. The do not require gimmicks or a certain set up to have a very scary damage potential. For the Storm Commandos to do their high damage, they need to go first and stand still. Not quite as reliable as the Senates. Momentum would never work with Storm Commandos, yet is okay with Senates. The two pieces operate differently, and being in different factions, are two completely different squads.

There is some powercreep, I don't think any of the designers will deny it. But keep in mind, the pieces were designer by different people. Weir may be designed to be a bit more of a power piece, where Agyus was the modern day Bail Organa.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:48 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
The thing you have to remember, is that the Senates are paying a lot for that 30 Dam. The do not require gimmicks or a certain set up to have a very scary damage potential. For the Storm Commandos to do their high damage, they need to go first and stand still. Not quite as reliable as the Senates. Momentum would never work with Storm Commandos, yet is okay with Senates. The two pieces operate differently, and being in different factions, are two completely different squads.

There is some powercreep, I don't think any of the designers will deny it. But keep in mind, the pieces were designer by different people. Weir may be designed to be a bit more of a power piece, where Agyus was the modern day Bail Organa.


True the storm commandos do need to step through some hoops to get 30 damage. (Though thrawn gives em the damage no matter when they activate and also makes em go first aaaand stealth makes it quite easy for them to hold still for deadeye...). But it's true. Senate Commandos pay a lot for that 30 base damage. These guys pay relatively nothing. Every piece is supposed to have a weakness ya know? For Senate Commandos, it was a lack of tricks. But where is the weakness now for storm commandos?

Honestly, I think whoever designed this one was getting a bit greedy. Doctorine of Fear AND Shields 2 AND Twin AND for less? Whatever dude. Personally I think Wier could easily have been great for 10 points more. Heck even then You would make up the cost after having three storm commandos since they are three points cheaper.

Argyus + 3 Senate Commandos = 89 points
Wier (at 38 cost) + 3 Storm Commandos = 89 points

And for each Commando the teams add, the Storm Commandos become that much cheaper.

Each Senate Commando has Double, Twin and Close Quarters

Each Storm Commando has Double, Twin, Grenades 20, Satchel charge, Shields 2, Stealth and is covered by the Commander's Doctorine of Fear ability.

I'm even leaving out the Cunning Attack and Deadeye since those abilities just even the damage.

Which would you rather use?

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:27 am 
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Grenades 20: will only be used if your opponent groups up figs enough to be worth it. Their attacks are still a better option.
Satchel Charge: If these guys are your door control, well, they aren't attacking.
Doctrine of Fear: If Weir is close enough to use it, he isn't going to be sticking around very long.

Senate has been a fairly obvious teir 2 squad type since conception. TheirA stats are inherently better. 30 BASE damage is so, so much more powerful than 10 with 2 other situational abilities. Keep in mind, there is one, two ways I can think of that can boost a Storm Commando's attack above 40 Dam. There are 2 REALLY good ways to boost Senates, with Gen. Skywalker and Yularen. Great way to get mobile, which is much better with the Commandos, not needing to stay still.

And Storm Commandos still have some weaknesses. They are trading the Twin from the Czerka, to depending on a CE. Not always reliable. Shields give them the needed survivability. How easy is it to do 40 on the move now? The Senates have the magic 50, requiring a bit more effort.

In the end, it is still comparing apples and oranges. The Senate and Commando squads are not the same squad. Some similarities with Weir now, but they will always be different. If you are just using Senate/Commandos and their inherent commander, then you are playing incorrectly. Weir would be unplayable at 38, just as Argyus is borderline at 29. Yeah, Storm Commandos may be a bit more competitive with Weir, but I see the two squads as completely different, with some really good options for the Senate. Senates can bust their shields way too easily. The Commandos are still limited by their Atk, imo.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:01 am 
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I don't know about you but I'd rather have shields 2 and stealth than +10 hp and 1 defense.

I think it's odd that you say 38 points is unplayable when that simply makes the cost for a Storm Commando squad equal to a Senate Commando squad at 3 Commandos. at 4 commandos, a Storm Commando squad would start being cheaper than a Senate Commando Squad. Below that number, Senate Commandos would be cheaper. But who really wants to bring less than 2 Commandos anyways?

And Senate Commandos have to get twin from their commander aswell. Except their commander doesn't have stealth to keep him alive.

I would agree with you on the apples and oranges thing, a stealth based squad and a conventional fighting squad are two different things. However, they are supposed to have different strengths and weaknesses. And honestly I don't see that here. I see the stealth squad keeping all it's normal strengths while also stealing the strengths of the conventional fighting squad.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:52 am 
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Imagine playing against an Old Republic squad with Bastila, or a Rebel or New Republic squad with Disruptive. When she starts meditating, all those commander effects go away. Now Senate Commandos have 30 base damage while Storm Commandos have 10 base with 2 conditional bonuses. Senates have a +9 base attack, Storms have a +6 with a conditional bonus. Senates have +10 HP and +1 Defense. Storms have Grenades 20 and Satchel Charge, but if you use either of those you're doing it wrong to be honest, so there's little stock to be placed there. Storms do have Stealth, but I'd call that a wash for the +10 HP and +1 Defense.

So while Disrupted the I would definitely consider the Senate Commando to be the stronger piece. If you don't think that how good a piece is while Disrupted is an important measure, then that just shows more that you don't have a very good grasp of the current metagame and are only basing your opinions on your local play, which is a very, very poor way to judge pieces (it's like telling a person in Siberia that a winter coat is a total waste of money just because you live in Florida).


At this point, though, it's become quite obvious that there's basically no chance of convincing you of any opinion other than your own. So I'd like to invite you to "put your money where your mouth is", as they say. Build the best Storm Commando squad you can muster (with Weir) and hop on Vassal. I'll be happy to whip up a Senate Commando squad to use and see how it goes. Or we could play 2 games, one with you playing Storm Commandos and one with you playing Senate Commandos, and see how you fair in both games. You seem pretty confident that Storm Commandos are now a strong squad, or at least better than Senate Commandos, but discussing it without results to discuss is pretty much purely conjecture. Multiple people in this thread (myself included) have already played with and/or against Weir, but I don't think that you have. So I think this conversation would have a lot more merit if you had actually played some games with him as opposed to just seeing how he works on paper.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:31 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:38 am
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I know that I have not played in a year but senate commandos have the gungan shield isnt that just as good as shields 10 or better?
Senate commandos are tier 2 maybe 1.5 in the right hands.Senate commandos can get mobile pretty easy and area lot better on the move than storm commandos. Overall senate commandos are a lot better than storm commandos. Storm commandos are tier 2 now with weir you just cant build the right support with weir to make the commandos tier 1 or 2. The Imp did get a lot of help in vset1 so they are better because of that and weir.

Ill get on vassal sometime and play my gungan shield squad. It was a pretty nasty squad pre gencon so it cant be that bad now.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:46 am 
Death Star Designers
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SenateCommando wrote:
I would agree with you on the apples and oranges thing, a stealth based squad and a conventional fighting squad are two different things. However, they are supposed to have different strengths and weaknesses. And honestly I don't see that here. I see the stealth squad keeping all it's normal strengths while also stealing the strengths of the conventional fighting squad.


Because you are looking at 4 pieces total. You have to look at the grand total of Imperials and Republic. Like I said, it is far, far easier and more likely to get Senates above 30 Dam (Yularen and Gen. Skywalker). For the Storm Commandos you MUST spend points on Thrawn to keep their damage consistant, and there are 2 pieces that can allow them to get above 30 Dam, neither being really good options. And trust me, as someone who has played :DDroid: before, 40 HP with Shields 2 doesn't exactly mean they will be sticking around longer, and that was back in CS when damage 30 was rare. Bacara is still generally a better option over the RCTS.

And Weir is unplayable at 38. I'm not paying 38 to boost a still somewhat fragile piece, who is as fragile as he is. 70 HP with only Stealth means he is an easy 38 pts for the opponent.

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