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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:05 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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Echo wrote:
Build the best Storm Commando squad you can muster (with Weir) and hop on Vassal. I'll be happy to whip up a Senate Commando squad to use and see how it goes. Or we could play 2 games, one with you playing Storm Commandos and one with you playing Senate Commandos, and see how you fair in both games. You seem pretty confident that Storm Commandos are now a strong squad, or at least better than Senate Commandos, but discussing it without results to discuss is pretty much purely conjecture. Multiple people in this thread (myself included) have already played with and/or against Weir, but I don't think that you have. So I think this conversation would have a lot more merit if you had actually played some games with him as opposed to just seeing how he works on paper.


Whats vassal?

Sithborg wrote:
Because you are looking at 4 pieces total. You have to look at the grand total of Imperials and Republic. Like I said, it is far, far easier and more likely to get Senates above 30 Dam (Yularen and Gen. Skywalker). For the Storm Commandos you MUST spend points on Thrawn to keep their damage consistant, and there are 2 pieces that can allow them to get above 30 Dam, neither being really good options. And trust me, as someone who has played :DDroid: before, 40 HP with Shields 2 doesn't exactly mean they will be sticking around longer, and that was back in CS when damage 30 was rare. Bacara is still generally a better option over the RCTS.

And Weir is unplayable at 38. I'm not paying 38 to boost a still somewhat fragile piece, who is as fragile as he is. 70 HP with only Stealth means he is an easy 38 pts for the opponent.


I'd think most Imperial players would be using Thrawn anyways. And Weir has doctorine of fear. So if anybody gets close enough to see through Stealth, Wier has an effective 23 defense without cover.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:42 pm 
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SenateCommando wrote:
Whats vassal?

Vassal is a program that allows you to play SWM (or other games) with other people online. If you search on here for Vassal you will find a "how to load Vassal" guide telling you how to set it up.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:38 pm 
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SenateCommando wrote:
Every piece is supposed to have a weakness ya know? For Senate Commandos, it was a lack of tricks. But where is the weakness now for storm commandos?


1. While they have a lot of options among the various abilities and CEs that can affect them, in a context of a squad between 100 and 200 you will never be able to take advantage of them all thus leaving some of the otherwise managable weaknesses exposed.

2. Their base stats are their main weakness and no amount of CEs can ever fully compensate for that across every matchup.

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Which would you rather use?


I'd be completely comfortable with a decent build of either, and all else being equal either would be a fine choice with decent odds of being competetive in a local tourney and neither would make the cut for regional or championship level events.

I see not a single problem with them in the context of competetive squads of different factions.

I also don't see a problem in a head to head matchup (which is generally a useless thing to worry about unless you're talking about very specific high-level metagame issues--not a problem here.)

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:45 pm 
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NickName wrote:
2. Their base stats are their main weakness and no amount of CEs can ever fully compensate for that across every matchup.


Storm Commandos cost 3 points cheaper. So they are supposed to have lower base stats I would think. I dunno if you can really call that a weakness since it means you can have more of them. Which is better cus it means more activations.

But oh well. I think I've said about all I can think to say on the subject. Thanks everybody for joining in the discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:35 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
Storm Commandos cost 3 points cheaper. So they are supposed to have lower base stats I would think. I dunno if you can really call that a weakness since it means you can have more of them. Which is better cus it means more activations.


By that logic Peace Brigade Thugs must be even better shooters, right? 16 points cheaper means much lower stats and many more activations is an improvement. That's obviously not the case. It's all about price vs performance and while the Storm Commando has always been a decent piece, +6 Attack, 40 HP and 10 Damage are weak stats for its cost. That's three of its for base stats. Conditional bonuses are valuable for sure, but appropriately not costed anywhere close to the same base stats.

If you make a couple assumptions, like you'll get to use your conditional bonuses about half the time, and calculate the average damage output the picture gets a bit clearer:

Storm Commando: 12 (.71 per point of cost)
Senate Commando: 20 (1 per point of cost)
Peace Brigade Thug: 1.5 (.38 per point of cost)

So a lot depends on how well you can tactically maintain your conditional bonuses because the Storm Commando falls way short of the Senate Commando at the outset, and cannot be expected to survive as long on average because 40/50 being an important break point in HP due to how many characters will deal 40 in a single activation.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:36 pm 
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NickName wrote:
SenateCommando wrote:
Storm Commandos cost 3 points cheaper. So they are supposed to have lower base stats I would think. I dunno if you can really call that a weakness since it means you can have more of them. Which is better cus it means more activations.


By that logic Peace Brigade Thugs must be even better shooters, right? 16 points cheaper means much lower stats and many more activations is an improvement. That's obviously not the case. It's all about price vs performance and while the Storm Commando has always been a decent piece, +6 Attack, 40 HP and 10 Damage are weak stats for its cost. That's three of its for base stats. Conditional bonuses are valuable for sure, but appropriately not costed anywhere close to the same base stats.

If you make a couple assumptions, like you'll get to use your conditional bonuses about half the time, and calculate the average damage output the picture gets a bit clearer:

Storm Commando: 12 (.71 per point of cost)
Senate Commando: 20 (1 per point of cost)
Peace Brigade Thug: 1.5 (.38 per point of cost)

So a lot depends on how well you can tactically maintain your conditional bonuses because the Storm Commando falls way short of the Senate Commando at the outset, and cannot be expected to survive as long on average because 40/50 being an important break point in HP due to how many characters will deal 40 in a single activation.


Well, yeah if you go only by straight up damage potential Senate Commandos are still slightly better. Which they should be. I mean damage is their specialty and without it they are nothing. Take into account though how often in a game Senate Commandos get to make all their attacks vs Storm Commandos. Having stealth with the potential for super stealth means a lot when you want to hold still to make 4 attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:45 pm 
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They get to make all their attacks more than you would expect. One guy at the local shop plays a very competitive senate commando squad. Another local player took it to Gencon last year (almost no practice with it and a solid player but not amazing) and went 3-3 in the championship with it. Senate commandos are and continue to be competitive. With R2 to tow them around and easy mobile attack they can be beasts. Also they don't really fare too badly when they are disrupted as well.

I think they will always be better than Storm commandos and the squads they are in will be better. You don't ever run a storm commando squad. You may run a squad with a couple storm commandos as your support. You do and can run a senate commando squad and have them be your main damage dealers.

The senate commando squad synergizes quite well and can beat many a squad that isn't prepared for it (especially when run by someone who has played it quite a bit).

It is one of the squads that I personally truly fear when I run my lancers because if I roll a crit and kill one before I am ready to then my game is in a world of hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:19 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
They get to make all their attacks more than you would expect. One guy at the local shop plays a very competitive senate commando squad. Another local player took it to Gencon last year (almost no practice with it and a solid player but not amazing) and went 3-3 in the championship with it. Senate commandos are and continue to be competitive. With R2 to tow them around and easy mobile attack they can be beasts. Also they don't really fare too badly when they are disrupted as well.

I think they will always be better than Storm commandos and the squads they are in will be better. You don't ever run a storm commando squad. You may run a squad with a couple storm commandos as your support. You do and can run a senate commando squad and have them be your main damage dealers.

The senate commando squad synergizes quite well and can beat many a squad that isn't prepared for it (especially when run by someone who has played it quite a bit).

It is one of the squads that I personally truly fear when I run my lancers because if I roll a crit and kill one before I am ready to then my game is in a world of hurt.


Heh yeah I have had some fun times with my Commandos. Once I was playing a team tourney against sombody who'd never fought em before. He was running Mandalorians and put his boba fett cmmander out in the open to try and tank for the other Mandos moving up. I Blew away his boba with a single commando. He was so suprised. Nobody thinks much of Senate Commandos at first. They look so much like Clone Troopers. They are always expecting my General Obi-wan or Skywalker to be the danger.

I just wish I had Panaka and Yularan.

I've also played against a storm commando squad. It had Thrawn, Arica, Moff Nyna, and a few storm commandos.

I was using a team of Rebel Commandos at the time and I got my butt kicked pretty badly. The super stealth mixed with the extra damage vs guys with stealth and Master tactician making Madine's Cunning 20 unseless is pretty mean. I tried to lock em up with Elites but they just satchel charged the doors and positioned themselves in all the nice places for good fields of fire and double attacked anybody who tried to sneak up on them. And now they'll have Doctorine of fear, twin and shields....

I was completely hosed.


Who isn't getting twin these days? Sheesh. It used to feel special on my Senate Commandos. Now it's just standard.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:08 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
I've also played against a storm commando squad. It had Thrawn, Arica, Moff Nyna, and a few storm commandos.

I was using a team of Rebel Commandos at the time and I got my butt kicked pretty badly. The super stealth mixed with the extra damage vs guys with stealth and Master tactician making Madine's Cunning 20 unseless is pretty mean. I tried to lock em up with Elites but they just satchel charged the doors and positioned themselves in all the nice places for good fields of fire and double attacked anybody who tried to sneak up on them. And now they'll have Doctorine of fear, twin and shields...


...and won't have Thrawn, Arica or Moff Nyna which gets back to the concept that you can't have everything in a single squad. The Weir squad will have different weaknesses based on what's left out.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:51 pm 
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SenateCommando wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
They get to make all their attacks more than you would expect. One guy at the local shop plays a very competitive senate commando squad. Another local player took it to Gencon last year (almost no practice with it and a solid player but not amazing) and went 3-3 in the championship with it. Senate commandos are and continue to be competitive. With R2 to tow them around and easy mobile attack they can be beasts. Also they don't really fare too badly when they are disrupted as well.

I think they will always be better than Storm commandos and the squads they are in will be better. You don't ever run a storm commando squad. You may run a squad with a couple storm commandos as your support. You do and can run a senate commando squad and have them be your main damage dealers.

The senate commando squad synergizes quite well and can beat many a squad that isn't prepared for it (especially when run by someone who has played it quite a bit).

It is one of the squads that I personally truly fear when I run my lancers because if I roll a crit and kill one before I am ready to then my game is in a world of hurt.


Heh yeah I have had some fun times with my Commandos. Once I was playing a team tourney against sombody who'd never fought em before. He was running Mandalorians and put his boba fett cmmander out in the open to try and tank for the other Mandos moving up. I Blew away his boba with a single commando. He was so suprised. Nobody thinks much of Senate Commandos at first. They look so much like Clone Troopers. They are always expecting my General Obi-wan or Skywalker to be the danger.

I just wish I had Panaka and Yularan.

I've also played against a storm commando squad. It had Thrawn, Arica, Moff Nyna, and a few storm commandos.

I was using a team of Rebel Commandos at the time and I got my butt kicked pretty badly. The super stealth mixed with the extra damage vs guys with stealth and Master tactician making Madine's Cunning 20 unseless is pretty mean. I tried to lock em up with Elites but they just satchel charged the doors and positioned themselves in all the nice places for good fields of fire and double attacked anybody who tried to sneak up on them. And now they'll have Doctorine of fear, twin and shields....

I was completely hosed.


Who isn't getting twin these days? Sheesh. It used to feel special on my Senate Commandos. Now it's just standard.



aside from a few Specific groups, 10 base damage pieces (via the czerka), and 2 factions having it in most builds most pieces dont ever get twin.
You say that its just standard now. Most of thepieces that grant twin or already have twin were out before anything DOTF came out with. MOst of the wotc (40 piece ) sets had about 1/10 peices have twin attack in this set it was just a little bit more. And yes seante commandos can be a very bad matchup against a super stealth storm commando squad. BUt thawt doesnt mean they are a broken piece. i Mean a grand master luke squad is incredible against a lancer squad, but that doesnt mean he is broken. YEah these buffs might make them played a little more, but it just means you have to change your strategy. Think of it this way: they add in the commanders for that stuff and they will lose pieces like Arice in their squad so they wont be able to get the barrage. Just add in a piece with force sense and you have a double wammy for them. YEah they might get thier shields, but that will only work so often, and they will go down quick, or at that point you can take down peices like nyna , if you can get to sight of them.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Your also arguing a very specific matchup, you cant compare pieces head to head and it be a fair comparison of the pieces. Like gmls vs lancer of course Luke wins that, but gmls vs an ig86 swarm Luke doesn't win that without some big mistakes.

In the meta as a whole senates still probably matchup better vs melee teams and most shooters. Storms matchup well vs 20 damage shooters and some melee.

Overall if you look at the big picture the senates 50 hp and 30 base damage goes a long way to making them the better choice most of the time.

Now, after saying that I feel this thread has gotten to this point soully based on your love for the senates. Again I'll say if you want more senate pieces post in the "new minis you want to see" thread. Youve said a lot about senates yet you haven't followed up on backing up your passion for that subgroup with suggestions.

That being said there are a lot more subgroups people want to see get help (rebel troopers, the entire sith OR vong and mando factions, republic commandos just to mak a few) so while your request may not be acted on immediately having new suggestions and ideas in the pipeline is never a bad thing.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:06 am 
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DarthJawa wrote:
aside from a few Specific groups, 10 base damage pieces (via the czerka), and 2 factions having it in most builds most pieces dont ever get twin.
You say that its just standard now. Most of thepieces that grant twin or already have twin were out before anything DOTF came out with. MOst of the wotc (40 piece ) sets had about 1/10 peices have twin attack in this set it was just a little bit more. And yes seante commandos can be a very bad matchup against a super stealth storm commando squad. BUt thawt doesnt mean they are a broken piece. i Mean a grand master luke squad is incredible against a lancer squad, but that doesnt mean he is broken. YEah these buffs might make them played a little more, but it just means you have to change your strategy. Think of it this way: they add in the commanders for that stuff and they will lose pieces like Arice in their squad so they wont be able to get the barrage. Just add in a piece with force sense and you have a double wammy for them. YEah they might get thier shields, but that will only work so often, and they will go down quick, or at that point you can take down peices like nyna , if you can get to sight of them.


First of all, let me start by saying that that is a freaky Jawa. But yeah, Arica would probably get ditched. I'll hope that that's enough. Somehow I doubt it. I really just think Weir's crazy undercosted for what he does. That and the shields is kinda stealing Republic Commandos' thunder almost as bad as the twin is stealing it from my senate commandos. I usually feel like when making a unique commander, one should avoid just simply giving them everything ya know? Try to fit it with the squad or the commander. If the commander is known for being an aggressive person give em an aggressive ability. If the commander is carefull, considerate of his soldiers or anything of that nature, give them a defensive ability. But when your just gonna throw on one of the best defensive abilities in the game, one of the best offensive abilities in the game and call it done, I start to just feel like it's getting greedy. I mea It's pretty ridiculous but how could Wier be forgetting to give them Jedi Hunter and Greater mobile while he's at it? Better fix that!

Weeks wrote:
Your also arguing a very specific matchup, you cant compare pieces head to head and it be a fair comparison of the pieces. Like gmls vs lancer of course Luke wins that, but gmls vs an ig86 swarm Luke doesn't win that without some big mistakes.

In the meta as a whole senates still probably matchup better vs melee teams and most shooters. Storms matchup well vs 20 damage shooters and some melee.

Overall if you look at the big picture the senates 50 hp and 30 base damage goes a long way to making them the better choice most of the time.

Now, after saying that I feel this thread has gotten to this point soully based on your love for the senates. Again I'll say if you want more senate pieces post in the "new minis you want to see" thread. Youve said a lot about senates yet you haven't followed up on backing up your passion for that subgroup with suggestions.

That being said there are a lot more subgroups people want to see get help (rebel troopers, the entire sith OR vong and mando factions, republic commandos just to mak a few) so while your request may not be acted on immediately having new suggestions and ideas in the pipeline is never a bad thing.


I like where Senate Commandos are for the most part. My biggest fear as far as they go is simply what I am saying here. That these virtual sets will simply obsolete them at some point.

I'd like to see maybe Captain jayfon and Isaru Omin. But I have a hard time deciding what their stats should look like. Though I did make a joke Jayfon on Bloomilk where he gave characters with "Senate" in their names Draw Fire. Thats pretty much all they did in Hostage Crisis. You do see them blocking blaster fire with those larger left pauldrons though. Maybe I could make up somthing for that...

In any case I have been thinking rebel Troopers need a boost for a while. I've been thinking maybe somthing to give commander effects for troopers a Booming Voice style effect.

But anyways, yeah, if I think I've figured out somthing cool I'll be sure to suggest it. Man, I'm tired. i'd better get some sleep before I say much more.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:28 am 
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So many darkside previews sofar. When are we gonna see some light side ones?

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:24 am 
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Listen to SHNN more often. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:24 am 
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..or you could start playing dark side

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:29 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
So many darkside previews sofar. When are we gonna see some light side ones?


Seriously? There was a great lightside preview not 12 hours ago. Plus there was the Red Squadron Ace shown last weekend. You don't get to complain if you're not going to even look for light side previews...

13 light side characters have been named in R&R, only 12 dark side have.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:06 am 
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biggsy wrote:
..or you could start playing dark side

+1.
Finally... found a better sig! Thanks! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:33 am 
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Echo wrote:
You don't get to complain.


Fixed.

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