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 Post subject: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:37 am 
Black Sun Thug
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Anyone else notice how heavily Destiny of the Force favored the dark side factions? There were a couple interesting Light Side pieces. Revanchist and Bastila mostly. The rest were kinda underwhelming. Lieutenant Page was...dissapointing. I mean Squad Defense with a 6 square range? They already have access to evade, mobile attack, Stealth and Superstealth, why another defensive ablity? What they needed was Squad Assault since they can't hit the broad side of a barn as it is. And in order for it to work I need 5 characters within six squares of eachother. Which is bad. And so on.

Anyways the first 2 previews of the new virtual set were, suprise suprise. More darksiders. Is this new virtual set gonna more of the same thing? A huge pile of op darkside guys with a small splash of mediocre to good light side characters? Yeah, Jaina is pretty crazy good but I can't help but feel it's only because she's got affinity for Mandalorians.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of virtual sets and have my set of Desitny of the Force cards and will probably get this new one too. But as a person who plays exclusively light side, I can't help but feel some concern over the possibility of bias towards darkside factions.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:39 am 
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Bringing balance to the game at the top level is an important issue to the designers. Rebel squads have won the last three national championships at GenCon. See a pattern there?

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:33 am 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Bringing balance to the game at the top level is an important issue to the designers. Rebel squads have won the last three national championships at GenCon. See a pattern there?


Exactly. As a rule, the lightside factions have been stronger than the darkside factions. The "top 5" factions are 3 lightside and 2 darkside factions, the "bottom 4" are 1 lightside and 2-3 darkside (depending on how you define Mandos, I consider them more of a fringe-type faction). If you've read about the design philosophy for DotF (which has been discussed by the designers), the main focus was bringing those bottom 4 closer to the top 5. So there was definitely a bias there (bias towards the bottom 4 factions), and that just so happened to coincide with more darkside factions than lightside factions.

I will say, however, that all lightside factions are getting great new pieces in Renegades and Rogues (not that darkside factions aren't getting anything good, there's plenty of good stuff all around). In fact, Old Republic are getting pretty dang awesome. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:05 am 
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This will help ease you mind then.

R&R
Lightside 24
Darkside 15

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:21 am 
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I echo Echo. :lol:
There will be plenty of great lightside stuff in R&R! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:07 am 
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I'm not sure numbers of characters addresses the issue the way the OP states it. Yes it's true, the dark side got some strong stuff in the first set. Lt. Page SHOULD be disappointing as a skirmish figure. First of all, he's a Rebel, and secondly he's a little-known character. We have a lot further to go with the Old Republic faction than we did with the Sith or the Empire, so it's going to take a second set to get there. But believe me, this set delivers with some tough figures. Even the Rebels get some new toys.

I also think that part of the issue is that as a combat game, the dark side is just easier to give stuff to in terms of combat. That is something we worked on with the new set to address. It's a learning process and we are all in uncharted territory.

Lastly, to address the "underwhelming" sentiment -
Jedi Seer for the Old Republic and Jacen Solo for the New Republic are, IMO, two of the top 10 designs in Destiny. And both of them have the opportunity to be even better post-R&R.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:17 am 
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Page underwhelming? I fail to see how a commander that hands out twin is ever considered underwhelming. Especially when the pieces he is giving twin to already have cheap access to cunning +20. Maybe it's not top tier but wookiee commandos running 12 and doing 100 damage seems pretty good to me, then again I'm no doctor.

I'd also like to comment on the pieces that have been talked about for R&R but not given stats to are mostly lightside. Thon, darmin, mace, wookiee Jedi, bardin, Saul, niner. There's probably more but that's just off the top of my head. All those pieces are lightside.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:29 am 
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DOTF:
18 LS characters
25 DS characters
10 Fringe
7 Mandos

R&R
24 LS characters
21 DS characters
11 Fringe
4 Mandos

yup there were a few more DS pieces in DotF, but now there will be more LS pieces in R&R!

Maybe the designers are just more inclined to evil though... :maul:

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:53 am 
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Weeks wrote:
Page underwhelming? I fail to see how a commander that hands out twin is ever considered underwhelming. Especially when the pieces he is giving twin to already have cheap access to cunning +20. Maybe it's not top tier but wookiee commandos running 12 and doing 100 damage seems pretty good to me, then again I'm no doctor.

And:
While it's not a great piece, the Bothan Commando can intuition out on a won initiative to get LOS on something for a potential 100 damage at +14.
The Veteran can do 80 while mobile, has stealth to boot, and can survive a Lancer strafe.
Throw Rieekan in there and these guys can cause some trouble before they die - earning their points where they usually wouldn't, without Page.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:26 pm 
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I will say that the pro-Darkside-ness of DOTF was not nearly as aggressive as I had feared it might be. I think the designers made Sith, Vong, and Mandos playable without drastically altering the overall game, and that's awesome--those factions needed to be made better, and Rebels, NR, and Republic didn't. It's not too hard to imagine a custom set that would have been power-creep city, and I don't think that happened (at least from what I've seen--I would like to be playing more, but life intervenes and stuff). If R&R were equally tilted to the darkside, that might give me pause, but it doesn't sound like that's where things are headed.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:34 pm 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Bringing balance to the game at the top level is an important issue to the designers. Rebel squads have won the last three national championships at GenCon. See a pattern there?


Well I'm just saying, add pieces that buff somthing other than the rebel hero characters. Buff Rebel troopers. Or Rebel pilots or Honor Guards or somthing. lol

I think It'd really be nice if rebels (And old/new Republic) got somthing with booming voice. I'd love to make a rebel trooper squad but all the trooper related commander effects have a 6 square limit.

Darth_Jim wrote:
I will say, however, that all lightside factions are getting great new pieces in Renegades and Rogues (not that darkside factions aren't getting anything good, there's plenty of good stuff all around). In fact, Old Republic are getting pretty dang awesome. ;)


Well, Thats exciting news.

LESHIPPY wrote:
This will help ease you mind then.

R&R
Lightside 24
Darkside 15


Really? Well, thats just downright interesting.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I'm not sure numbers of characters addresses the issue the way the OP states it. Yes it's true, the dark side got some strong stuff in the first set. Lt. Page SHOULD be disappointing as a skirmish figure. First of all, he's a Rebel, and secondly he's a little-known character. We have a lot further to go with the Old Republic faction than we did with the Sith or the Empire, so it's going to take a second set to get there. But believe me, this set delivers with some tough figures. Even the Rebels get some new toys.

I also think that part of the issue is that as a combat game, the dark side is just easier to give stuff to in terms of combat. That is something we worked on with the new set to address. It's a learning process and we are all in uncharted territory.

Lastly, to address the "underwhelming" sentiment -
Jedi Seer for the Old Republic and Jacen Solo for the New Republic are, IMO, two of the top 10 designs in Destiny. And both of them have the opportunity to be even better post-R&R.


Page should be dissapointing? Thats not very nice. He did lead the commando team that took out the shield generator. And he was in some of the Rogue Squadron books. I think Page was probably the character I was most excited about seeing in the virtual set.

Weeks wrote:
Page underwhelming? I fail to see how a commander that hands out twin is ever considered underwhelming. Especially when the pieces he is giving twin to already have cheap access to cunning +20. Maybe it's not top tier but wookiee commandos running 12 and doing 100 damage seems pretty good to me, then again I'm no doctor.

I'd also like to comment on the pieces that have been talked about for R&R but not given stats to are mostly lightside. Thon, darmin, mace, wookiee Jedi, bardin, Saul, niner. There's probably more but that's just off the top of my head. All those pieces are lightside.


Well the problem with the whole cunning attack thing is that Imperials usually have Thrawn. you can negate the whole commander effect simply by saying "I go first and I activate the guy you want to kill." Suddenly Rebel commandos are back to 20 damage at +6. I like running rebel commandos and have tried it multiple times but Thrawn and the +6 attack really make it difficult to do anything with them. It's nice when it works. But every game I have played them in it seems I get an average of 1 good cunning attack in. That's pretty much it.

And wasn't Saul an Old republic guy who joined the Sith? Or am I thinkng of a different one? Saul...Karath? Somthing like that.

buttcabbge wrote:
I will say that the pro-Darkside-ness of DOTF was not nearly as aggressive as I had feared it might be. I think the designers made Sith, Vong, and Mandos playable without drastically altering the overall game, and that's awesome--those factions needed to be made better, and Rebels, NR, and Republic didn't. It's not too hard to imagine a custom set that would have been power-creep city, and I don't think that happened (at least from what I've seen--I would like to be playing more, but life intervenes and stuff). If R&R were equally tilted to the darkside, that might give me pause, but it doesn't sound like that's where things are headed.


Exar Kun, force spirit and Sith Inquisitor are pretty nasty. That -4 to their saves + Inquisitor OR Sith Sorcery is pretty ridiculous. And in a 200 point game you may have Revan aswell for master tactician. So you always go first and you can run up sombody and sith sorcery your opponent's whole team or steal their best guys or even both. Theres a couple guys in my group who really like to play sith and it gets ugly.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:08 pm 
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1. Rebels will NEVER need, nor ever get, Booming Voice. You may like some of those lesser CE's, but dear god, you can't give them Booming Voice with Leia and the Bothan Nobles.
2. Last I checked, Han was in charge of the assualt on Endor, not Page. Sure it was Page's team, but it was Han's mission.
3. Rebels have always been Cunning heavy. Keep in mind, they do have ways of getting around Master Tactician, with Never Tell Me the Odds.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:16 pm 
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From Wookieepedia wrote:
In 1999, the Endor Limited expansion set of the Star Wars Customizable Card Game included a card of Lieutenant Page that retconned the character into being an extra glimpsed briefly aboard Home One in Return of the Jedi.[3] The extra was played by David Church, who also portrayed a stormtrooper in 1977's Star Wars.[47][48] Church discovered that his Return of the Jedi character had been given a name during a signing at a Collectormania convention.[47]


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:13 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
1. Rebels will NEVER need, nor ever get, Booming Voice. You may like some of those lesser CE's, but dear god, you can't give them Booming Voice with Leia and the Bothan Nobles.
2. Last I checked, Han was in charge of the assualt on Endor, not Page. Sure it was Page's team, but it was Han's mission.
3. Rebels have always been Cunning heavy. Keep in mind, they do have ways of getting around Master Tactician, with Never Tell Me the Odds.


Hmm. Well perhaps you could make the booming voice character a Leia? That way at least you couldn't use that other Leia with this one. Not sure what to do about the Bothans...hmm.

I could really use sombody with Never tell me the odds..

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:54 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
Page should be dissapointing? Thats not very nice. He did lead the commando team that took out the shield generator. And he was in some of the Rogue Squadron books. I think Page was probably the character I was most excited about seeing in the virtual set.


I think the last sentence explains your disappointment. I'm not sure anything short of making the piece a tier-1 staple would have lived up to the expectations of the piece you were "most excited about seeing."

When I say he should be disappointing what I mean is that the design team has followed Rob's lead on the decisions. We are not going to turn bit-part characters into mini powerhouses. For his cost, he does some really cool stuff, but we all agree this still needs to feel like Star Wars, meaning the heroes and villains of the story - be it the OT or the PT or the EU - is where the focus of the best uniques will be.

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Exar Kun, force spirit and Sith Inquisitor are pretty nasty. That -4 to their saves + Inquisitor OR Sith Sorcery is pretty ridiculous. And in a 200 point game you may have Revan aswell for master tactician. So you always go first and you can run up sombody and sith sorcery your opponent's whole team or steal their best guys or even both. Theres a couple guys in my group who really like to play sith and it gets ugly.


That is pretty much the flavor we envisioned for them. It is a "nasty" combo, as you put it. But there are ways to counter it, even if you don't use a single DotF stat block design.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:15 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
Hmm. Well perhaps you could make the booming voice character a Leia?


I shutter to think what the rebels could do with a booming voice....its bad enough that they can have pet mice following them around extending CE's.

I would think that using the mouse droid(s) it would be more cost effective in the long run then adding another booming voice to a figure like leia...

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 Post subject: Re: The Dark side of the force surrounds these virtual sets....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:39 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
Weeks wrote:
Page underwhelming? I fail to see how a commander that hands out twin is ever considered underwhelming. Especially when the pieces he is giving twin to already have cheap access to cunning +20. Maybe it's not top tier but wookiee commandos running 12 and doing 100 damage seems pretty good to me, then again I'm no doctor.


Well the problem with the whole cunning attack thing is that Imperials usually have Thrawn. you can negate the whole commander effect simply by saying "I go first and I activate the guy you want to kill." Suddenly Rebel commandos are back to 20 damage at +6. I like running rebel commandos and have tried it multiple times but Thrawn and the +6 attack really make it difficult to do anything with them. It's nice when it works. But every game I have played them in it seems I get an average of 1 good cunning attack in. That's pretty much it.


If you're only getting one good cunning in in a round, you might wanna re-think your Rebel Commando squad. I've done an awesome job with RCs, even against un-favorable matchups. Try adding in Han, Smuggler and the Leia to give him the free shot at +4 +10. This way, if your opponent does try to avoid the 60, 80, or 100 damage from your ERC, VRC, or WC, then you can use Luke, RC to levitate Han into place and smash that piece's face in for 90. It works. Trust me. Your other option is just to ignore that piece and go cunning-berserk on the other pieces your opponent decided NOT to move first.

SenateCommando wrote:
buttcabbge wrote:
I will say that the pro-Darkside-ness of DOTF was not nearly as aggressive as I had feared it might be. I think the designers made Sith, Vong, and Mandos playable without drastically altering the overall game, and that's awesome--those factions needed to be made better, and Rebels, NR, and Republic didn't. It's not too hard to imagine a custom set that would have been power-creep city, and I don't think that happened (at least from what I've seen--I would like to be playing more, but life intervenes and stuff). If R&R were equally tilted to the darkside, that might give me pause, but it doesn't sound like that's where things are headed.


Exar Kun, force spirit and Sith Inquisitor are pretty nasty. That -4 to their saves + Inquisitor OR Sith Sorcery is pretty ridiculous. And in a 200 point game you may have Revan aswell for master tactician. So you always go first and you can run up sombody and sith sorcery your opponent's whole team or steal their best guys or even both. Theres a couple guys in my group who really like to play sith and it gets ugly.


You do realize that a Kun, DFS, Sith Inquisitor and new/old Revan combo is going to cost you, what, ~100 points, minimum? And also, with 40 hit points and a really low defense, how come you don't shoot the inquisitor first?
If you go the Kun, DFS, Revan, and Sith Sorcery combo, that's going to cost ~150 points. If your opponent is going to spend 150 points on three pieces, I think that the combo should be both very powerful, and you should be able to counter it just by locking doors in their face and shooting at them once they're activated.

Now, just to make sure, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this or anything, but Rebel Commandos are the LAST piece in the game that need a boost. Its not like they don't out-perform 90% of the other pieces out there that cost about the same... :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:52 am 
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I think the past 2 gencon champions would agree that rebel commandos are pretty good.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:15 pm 
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The problem here is that you are attempting to measure and judge pieces and strategy only by your local results. The national meta is really what the designers are attempting to address, and that may not be what you are experiencing, especially if your group has not been exposed to playing some of the better people in the game. For example, in my local group, I win about 90-95% of the time, using every faction. However, as I've been getting ready for regionals I've been playing a couple of our best players including Echo, our reigning national champion. I've won less than 10%. I am becoming a better player, though, because I'm playing better players and seeing strategies and squads I don't see here. Don't settle for conclusions you've reached by playing within your own group. Study squad builds on the forums, read tournament results, and if you can, play on Vassal.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:28 pm 
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+1

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