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 Post subject: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:11 pm 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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Is there any discussion of a complete point cost overhaul of all the sets? Many character from the later sets are way cheaper than the first few sets even when they have the same or better abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:05 am 
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I know a guy who has been doing this for the last year. He is working in secret because this topic is quite frowned upon. I don't expect you to get the answers you are looking for here.

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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:43 am 
Jedi Knight
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R5Don4 wrote:
..because this topic is quite frowned upon.
Why is that? It's no deadly sin to not like/use the V-sets, it's just a matter of oppinion. I know that most people - myself included - love the V-sets and think it's the way to go, but for the people that don't use them this would be most helpful. They have every right to play the game their way.

I think overhauling the entire game is a cool idea, as it would make virtually all the pieces playable (i guess?). But it would still come to a standstill without new additions, and that would get boring after a while. That's why i'm all for the V-sets, as they will keep the game fresh.

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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:17 pm 
Death Star Designers
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I also know the guy R5Don4 is talking about. He and i disagree on some things but generally the gist of the recost is to make all the old figures, especially c/uc balanced points wise.

Having done some playtesting with him, basically a squad of Rebel Storm figures vs some of the newest stuff can result in a fair match because he's made all the RS characters cheaper. For instance, the original Han Solo is recosted to 20 points from 28. this savings results in say 150-160 pts of rebel storm for every 100 pts of new stuff.

All of the figures being made currently are not being compared across factions to other pieces with very similar stats/damage output. I think truly responsible costing needs to be done in that context which is why the recost idea is so appealing.


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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:11 pm 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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I think the designers got a little lazy and made the newer character cheaper to make them seem better but either the new ones have to go up or the old ones down.
rebel commando (RS AE) vs veteran rebel commando (IE) both cost 14 points
40 50
15 16
5 6
10 21
both have stealth and grenades but the veteran has mobile attack! this makes the first one useless in a game compared to the other. I don't see the point costs as sacred when the designers didn't stay true to the game.

biggsy wrote:
But it would still come to a standstill without new additions, and that would get boring after a while.

As for this ... I've been kicking around a few new characters and in the process of modeling them, but with 800 different characters (give or take 100) I think if the battles were more balances it would be better because more squads could be created not not just a few sweet heart ones with key guy. I still have fun playing chess and it only has 6 different characters.
:shooter:
I would like to keep up on the point updates, doesn't seem to be impossible just time consuming. thanks guys.


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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:23 pm 
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I'd be interested in checking out and maybe playtesting some recosted RS and such minis. The V-Sets are definitely in the vein of this, giving us aggressively costed minis, minis intended to make older pieces playable (Poggle the Lesser, Niles Ferrier), and minis which give us a reason to break out many older pieces we never play (Bastila JM gives us a reason to use Bastila, Ki-Adi JM gives us a reason to play Ki-Adi, etc.). So we definitely have some of that with the V-Sets. Recosting is an intriguing idea, though.


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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:26 am 
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If you are really interested in doing that you can PM Fool here, or visit his message boards; http://bswmce1.runboard.com/.

He's the one that was talking about doing that as a project, and asked me to help, but I just ended up not having enough time to so it. I sure he'd still be happy to work on it if there were others interested.

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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:10 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Zero interest here. I believe the V-Set designers are addressing past overcosted/underwhelming minis. Also, I think having cards readily available (V-Sets) that everyone is familiar with is the way to go. It lends credence to the new minis/abilities, more than having to print out copies of altered stats that there is no way a majority of the community would/could agree on. For casual play in the shop or home that is cool naturally, just not for widespread consumption.


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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:44 pm 
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The V-sets are cool (and I'm mean UBER cool) but unless the designers make a V-set that of the original sets that recost/makes playable then they are not addressing the cost issue.

A healthy mix of both would be good!

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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:50 pm 
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Cerous Mutor wrote:
The V-sets are cool (and I'm mean UBER cool) but unless the designers make a V-set that of the original sets that recost/makes playable then they are not addressing the cost issue.

A healthy mix of both would be good!


Well that's kind of what they are doing. Like the example with the RS Han Solo that was brought up; would you rather just have that Han be 20 points, or the brand new Han Solo, Gambler from DotF with RS Han as the RM? Personally, I like the idea of the latter much more than the former, because it's actually a new set of stats and I still get to use my RS Han mini (while keeping my Han Scoundrel and Han Smuggler playable!). Same thing would go with the new Mk II Destroyer Droid vs just a lowered cost for the old DD, or the Elite Scout Trooper vs just making the original Scout Trooper cheaper.

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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:25 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Echo wrote:
Cerous Mutor wrote:
The V-sets are cool (and I'm mean UBER cool) but unless the designers make a V-set that of the original sets that recost/makes playable then they are not addressing the cost issue.

A healthy mix of both would be good!


Well that's kind of what they are doing. Like the example with the RS Han Solo that was brought up; would you rather just have that Han be 20 points, or the brand new Han Solo, Gambler from DotF with RS Han as the RM? Personally, I like the idea of the latter much more than the former, because it's actually a new set of stats and I still get to use my RS Han mini (while keeping my Han Scoundrel and Han Smuggler playable!). Same thing would go with the new Mk II Destroyer Droid vs just a lowered cost for the old DD, or the Elite Scout Trooper vs just making the original Scout Trooper cheaper.

Yeah, I'm with the Champ. :)

Just lowering the costs won't necessarily make the older pieces more playable, because those older pieces don't necessarily have the damage output or survivability that is necessary to make them competitive. Sure, recosting RS Han to 20 is a good (and probably accurate) change...but in most cases I'd still want to use the 27 pt Han Smuggler, because of the better damage output and the better stats. Recosting the CS/RotS Destroyer Droids would be fine, but the improved Shields on the DD MkII really make it so much better than the original. It is these kinds of adjustments, in my mind, that make the V-sets superior to a simple recosting.


Another angle (not covered in this discussion yet) is the matter of how far to go with the recosting. The V-set designers made the decision (again, the right one, in my mind) to leave all of the WotC material untouchable. This allows people to use their original WotC cards/minis as normal, if they prefer it that way.

If we want to make a better RS Han, then we can make a new one, with either improved stats/abilities, or else cheaper costing. In fact, they have done exactly that with a number of minis already. Some of the V-set minis are "fixing" what WotC messed up, and some of the V-set minis are also inventing brand new pieces which could obviously not be made with recosting alone.

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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:31 pm 
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What is the secret formula (formulas) used to cost a character? Is there info in the forum about how the v-set was done?


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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:38 pm 
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There is no formula.

WotC did it by comparison to existing characters, and then playtesting.

VSet uses the same method. (Except with likely way more playtesting.) :P

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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:33 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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toady wrote:
What is the secret formula (formulas) used to cost a character? Is there info in the forum about how the v-set was done?


No secret. Here was my methods (I had 2 that I used).

Method 1
1. pick a point range for a character (usually something like, this guy should be in the 20s)
2. Design stats that fit the range
3. Playtest
4. Adjust cost/stats based on play testing
5. Retest, repeat 4/5 as many times as necessary until everyone was comfortable with it

Method 2
1. Design stats with no point cost in mind
2. Literally, make up a number that seemed appropriate - usually done by comparison to existing minis, but also keeping in mind faction, future design ideas, current meta, and recognizing what characters this one could obsolete (to reduce obsolescence as much as possible.) And this is exactly as fluid as it sounds. Generally we ended up with a cost within 15 of the first guess, but it is a guess nonetheless.
3. Playtest
4. Adjust cost/stats based on play testing
5. Retest, repeat 4/5 as many times as necessary until everyone was comfortable with it

There just isn't a formula that can accurate account for every interaction possible in a game of this size. Every ability in the game and every stat line has a variable cost based on what other interactions are possible for it. With fringe figures, a set formula has even less usefulness, as it would be mathematically impossible to come up with such a thing that is even close to 100% accurate. People have tried, and no one has ever succeeded. Costing isn't formulaic, it's an artform.

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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:59 am 
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To add to what Bill is saying is that abilities don't have a set cost. For instance evade. It won't cost much if anything on a low hp/low defense character (esp in the rebel faction) because it just won't provide that much however on a big beat with high defense/high HP it will cost quite a bit more (esp if the piece cannot access evade any other way) because evade can increase the survivability by quite a bit instead of just a little.

And this is true for almost every ability. Opportunist on an imperial piece is almost worthless as not many people will play an Imp squad without Thrawn.

And just repeat this for any ability.

Hope this helps toady.

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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:14 pm 
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I'll break the silence. There is a secret point costing formula (I won't even go into the super secret squad building always win meta game formula).

Rebels
Cost the piece
Playtest
reduce the cost by 25% or to 9 points (your choice)

Sith, Vong, OR, NR
Cost
Playtest
increase the cost by 15% (making it useless)

Imp, Rep, Sep
Cost
Playtest
change some stats, don't playtest and publish

Fringe
Cost (lol)

Mando
Cost
no need to playtest with stats these poor, use the time savings for something else

Oh wait, this is not the V Set design technique... Who do you think used this method? :DS2:


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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:17 pm 
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Ha subtle...lol


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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:58 pm 
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Engineer wrote:
I'll break the silence. There is a secret point costing formula (I won't even go into the super secret squad building always win meta game formula).

Rebels
Cost the piece
Playtest
reduce the cost by 25% or to 9 points (your choice)

Sith, Vong, OR, NR
Cost
Playtest
increase the cost by 15% (making it useless)

Imp, Rep, Sep
Cost
Playtest
change some stats, don't playtest and publish

Fringe
Cost (lol)

Mando
Cost
no need to playtest with stats these poor, use the time savings for something else

Oh wait, this is not the V Set design technique... Who do you think used this method? :DS2:


Hahahaha, who indeed... Man they really hated us. Or just rerelease old pieces without changing anything. Or if it was crazy Friday you release super strafers. Man those were such a bad idea...


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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:03 am 
Sith Apprentice
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Think of it like this, if you were to go out and ask 100 people who was the most balanced luke/vader/boba whatever...or for that matter, just which single piece was the best overall balanced piece in the game to get a baseline off of for comparison, you would get about 60-75 different answers. Everyone has differing opinions about which pieces are the most/least playable, which ones are broken, which ones are must haves/should never have been made and so on.

Based on the all of that, it would be almost impossible to recost, eventually someone would call foul somewhere. I would love to see alot of the older pieces playable again, but for a game to grow and improve, you have to do better than you already have done or people will lose interest.


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 Post subject: Re: character point cost overhaul
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:55 am 
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Engineer forgot the 15 % kotor markup


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