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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:43 pm 
Death Star Designers
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I think the important thing is to whenever possible use pieces that are readily available, new sets if possible over older sets. But in some cases that is not always pratical and should not limit the set design. I can see how VOng is going to be very difficult in the future and personally am very opposed to the idea of using a RM from outside SW Minis we have, but thats my perogative.

For me, I have very few of the older pieces, but I do have a ton of shadow stormtroopers. So for our group I used the SS to represent 3 or 4 diffrent new mando pieces, but I painted them diffrently so it was clear what they were. An example of uniques is Exar Kun, I don't have one so I painted a Sith Commander dude red and dumped some glitter on him. Cheesy, yes, but it's clear he is not what he use to be, and I am pretty ok with that.

I was not however going to do that for Jaster/Jango as I only have 1 and this is a unique. I did however do an extra Flying Rex/Jodo so that was an easy mod.

In all what I guess I am saying is that with a little paint it is easy to have characters represent someone else. But can the design team ever say that this character's RM if painted X for non-uniques? That is the easiest solution for vong, it is mini Z with no paint or mini Y with base painted Orange. (I said base there since bases are pretty easy to paint and require very little skill.)

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:48 pm 
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The goal of the recomended mini is for those of use who won't customize, which includes paint schemes. So pretty much, they are all chosen as unpainted.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:58 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
And Again, check the CUSTOMS part. It explains much better than you think you have.

If this is the section you are referring to:
Floor Rules wrote:
Conversions


Conversions (customization of models) are allowed in DCI-sanctioned Star Wars Miniatures tournaments, but must adhere to the following rules:


• The base model (the model being converted) must be a Star Wars Miniatures model.
• Base models must remain easily identifiable. A player must be able to tell what each model is on first glance at the battlefield.
• When a conversion is being used it must have the corresponding official card for each conversion model. For example, if a player is using three customized Mouse Droid models and one official Mouse Droid model in their squad they will need to have four official Mouse Droid cards.
• Additional equipment (including weaponry) may not be added to a model if that equipment is not represented on the model’s stat card. For example, a player may not add a blaster to a model that doesn’t have a ranged attack.

Going by that it would suggest that falcon's decent Bastila would be unuseable in a tournament setting, due to the base model not being Bastila (AKA the RM). It would also mean that the use of the D&DM Warbound Impaler for the Voxyn is invalid (due to the custom not being a SWM Model).

So there really needs to be at least some leniency to those rules regardless.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:03 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Lord_Ball wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
And Again, check the CUSTOMS part. It explains much better than you think you have.

If this is the section you are referring to:
Floor Rules wrote:
Conversions


Conversions (customization of models) are allowed in DCI-sanctioned Star Wars Miniatures tournaments, but must adhere to the following rules:


• The base model (the model being converted) must be a Star Wars Miniatures model.
• Base models must remain easily identifiable. A player must be able to tell what each model is on first glance at the battlefield.
• When a conversion is being used it must have the corresponding official card for each conversion model. For example, if a player is using three customized Mouse Droid models and one official Mouse Droid model in their squad they will need to have four official Mouse Droid cards.
• Additional equipment (including weaponry) may not be added to a model if that equipment is not represented on the model’s stat card. For example, a player may not add a blaster to a model that doesn’t have a ranged attack.

Going by that it would suggest that falcon's decent Bastila would be unuseable in a tournament setting, due to the base model not being Bastila (AKA the RM), and the model was given a LS which the Base model lacks. It would also mean that the use of the D&DM Warbound Impaler for the Voxyn is invalid (due to the custom not being a SWM Model).

So there really needs to be at least some leniency to those rules regardless.


Actually you've got the two backwards. Since Lightsaber is represented on Bastila's card, or it is inherent that she should, then adding a lightsaber is correct. I expect the Star Wars in the miniature part to be dropped.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. At smaller tournaments, you may get away with a sticker, but someplace like Gencon (where the standards are and should be higher) you won't.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:12 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Actually you've got the two backwards. Since Lightsaber is represented on Bastila's card, or it is inherent that she should, then adding a lightsaber is correct. I expect the Star Wars in the miniature part to be dropped.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. At smaller tournaments, you may get away with a sticker, but someplace like Gencon (where the standards are and should be higher) you won't.

Yeah I realized the LS bit and removed that, but the Base model issue is still the same, so just like the SWM model restriction will need to be addressed as well.

The main thing I've been getting at is that the model is clearly identifiable - which is all that should really matter Gencon or otherwise. If the writing on the sticker is difficult to read (too small or just plain sloppy writing) it's no longer clearly identifiable, and therefore the rules stating that it must be, make that figure unusable.


Last edited by Lord_Ball on Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:15 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Wait

I cant make cartoon stickers and put them on my minis even if they look like the guy?


DARN

:fight:

I wanted to make Jar Jar stickers and put them on all my minis. So Revan would have a jar jar stick and then say Revan under the drawing.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:16 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Lord_Ball wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Actually you've got the two backwards. Since Lightsaber is represented on Bastila's card, or it is inherent that she should, then adding a lightsaber is correct. I expect the Star Wars in the miniature part to be dropped.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. At smaller tournaments, you may get away with a sticker, but someplace like Gencon (where the standards are and should be higher) you won't.

Yeah I realized the LS bit and removed that, but the Base model issue is still the same, so just like the SWM model restriction will need to be addressed as well.

The main thing I've been getting at is that the model is clearly identifiable - which is all that should really matter Gencon or otherwise. If the writing on the sticker is difficult to read (too small or just plain sloppy writing) it's no longer clearly identifiable, and therefore the rules stating that it must be, make that figure unuseable.


Ok the custom or mini has to kind of look like the guy. All of this will be rewritten and make more sense just wait for the new update.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
The goal of the recomended mini is for those of use who won't customize, which includes paint schemes. So pretty much, they are all chosen as unpainted.



I know that is currently the case but at somepoint we may run out of minis for some factions and the vong are a good example of this I think. I would say painting a base is not a huge deal as it would be easy to remove, but I understand the hesitation to do this. At what point do you start be willing to lose a little of the flavor by having blood carveres as vongs, and then whats next after Blood Carvers, Felucians? At some point it starts being a little silly, so does that mean that we jsut don;t have any new vong? Even if it was not paint, and I know someone scoffed at the idea earlier, there are the garage sell round stickers in green yellow red and blue that someone could easliy add to the base. That seems like a better idea to me then having aother species represented as a vong.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:03 pm 
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You have to realise, the reason CMGs have a decent following is that there are those who either do not have the time, ability, or will to paint. And painting is fairly minor in terms of customizing. There are figs that will likely be reused a few times. Painting won't likely be required anytime soon, and there are other ways to determine who is who for non-customizers to keep track of figures. People do it all the time with Reinforcements.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:43 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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I think u should stick close to the recommended figure, except for conversions.

As far as Vong go, I think alot of the demons and creatures from D&D minis work fine. Should be easy to come by and you can get the info for the mini (set and rarity). Alot of the priest type characters would work for sith priest or cultist as well. We could even get a group together on here to make a list of possible figures for the virtual set design team to reference.

Other mini games have stuff to offer as well and i have started checking it out. The Narglatch (the large ice cat mounts for the Talz) can be represented by the WOW mine SaberCat. Should be cheap to get and is a good rep. Just some ideas, but i think it will be very good for the game if we are able to introduce some new minis and not just keep rehashing the old ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:20 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Sithborg wrote:
You have to realise, the reason CMGs have a decent following is that there are those who either do not have the time, ability, or will to paint. And painting is fairly minor in terms of customizing. There are figs that will likely be reused a few times. Painting won't likely be required anytime soon, and there are other ways to determine who is who for non-customizers to keep track of figures. People do it all the time with Reinforcements.



I do get that, it's one of the primary reasons i got into it. I dont have time to paint all the miniatures, that means at some point you might run out of RM's that make sense. Opinions were asked for and thats mine. I knew that it would not be a popular one.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:09 pm 
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I saw several mentions of how pieces from the older sets are easy to find, or happen to be cheap to acquire. Well that happens to be the case with D&D minis as well. Cheap to get.


I have pretty much everything since Rebel Storm minus a few Uniques and reprints, and I know most other players do as well. But I also think its unfair to tell people they should go dish out to get the RM figures for DOTF. It's very easy to ask someone else to buy something you already own to lighten your own burden. If its so cheap to get old figures for SW... Then as I've said it's just as cheap for everyone to grab a few D&D guys that might better represent some characters.

It would be far easier to use a few Orcs from D&D as the Yuuzhan Vong than using a Rodian. In fact I think using an Orc or some other Monster to depict the Vong is no more ridiculous than a Rodian, Weeguay or whatever random fringe alien is selected. I am all for the Nelvaan and Utapaun guys as Vong though. At least they don't have GUNS in their hands.. which to me rules out most pieces as even being Vong eligible if you want to be thematically correct.

How many D&D guys would we need anyway like 4 or so to be the Vong?

It's really only the Vong that have any big issue as far as I'm concerned. The Mandos can always use the various Sith Troopers, and Imperial armored characters. Hell you can even use TIE Pilots if need be. Plenty of old Mando armor had tubes and junk coming out of their helmets anyway. Some of the Clones could be used as well, ARC trooper and Commander type ones because they are less plain. Look more battle hardened as Mandalorians. Oh Yeah and don't forget the Separatist Commando, that thing even has a T-Visor already right? hah.

Oh and lastly I think a Sticker on a Camaasi to represent something random is lame... but I see nothign wrong with a Sticker on a more similar character. Say put a Sticker on a Mandalore to represent the new one if you don't have a Canderous Ordo figure. Stickers at least won't deface a mini for the sake of identification the way paint or something else might. Some people just aren't into customizing or the whole paint thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:38 pm 
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And a good chunk of our community has no interest in any other minis game or genre. I wouldn't have a problem getting a similar Star Wars type product to represent a figure. I wouldn't pick up a D&D mini, though, as I have no interest in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:52 pm 
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It has nothing to do what the game is.. but when you run out of existing pieces.. you lose options.. and I'd really hate for the same few Vong pieces to be used again and again to represent new pieces in the upcoming sets.

Hell if you really wanna keep it star wars.. lets all find some West End Games SW minis lol.. I still have some of those somewhere.


But for real now...I think picking up a few orcs isn't a big deal.. nobody would be asking anyone to go buy a case of D&D junk .. just a few guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:03 pm 
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The vong aren't as limited as you think. Any human and Duros can be an Masque'd Infiltrator. There are a few fairly close species as well, with a little imagination. And there is always the Peace Brigade.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:31 pm 
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WacoBlaze wrote:
I actually kind of think you should use the mini (proxy) shown on the card with little to no exceptions (maybe pieces over $20 could see alternates). When you think that the set was free and we were used to paying $100 + to field an entire set I don't think it too unreasonable to hunt down pieces that should be pretty easy to get and cheap to boot. Think it will be very confusing if you run into players in competitive games especially, that are running proxies that in no way come close to representing the V-Set mini...especially if you allow them to use more than one proxy for the same one.


see for me i can understand using them for some minis, but i like to customize. I understand that not everyone does, but that is my preference. i personally think it makes the game a little more interesting, and the V-set pieces a little more noticeable. Now i do agree that you should have to use the same mini/custom for each vset figure. So if you have 2 mandalorian counter intelligence officers, and you are using a repainted mini, they should be painted the same (or very close at least.) not have a shadow stormtrooper and a clone trooper representing them.

ALso not everyone can afford some of the peices anymore. i personally would not be able to play anymore with wotcs prices because of life changes last year. and to be honest some of the minis have been bought out comepletely, others have had their prices raised when the vset came out(i saw this on 2 different sites), so it gets hard for players that havnt been in the game for a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Most sites still have decent stock on the sets but are dried up depending on the set or figure also..

and if you resort to ebay some sellers have limited selection, especially for commons and uncommons..

shipping costs alone between otherwise cheap Single purchases would add up quick...

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:32 am 
Sith Apprentice
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Sithborg wrote:
I wouldn't pick up a D&D mini, though, as I have no interest in it.


Perhaps you should quit thinking of it as a D&D Mini and instead as a Custom Figure for your new V-set (as that's what it'd actually be!).

That said when using non-SWM pieces Price definitely needs to be accounted for, because like Sithborg, many won't have the interest in it, and so only the cheap minis should really be considered.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:41 am 
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The problem with using D&D minis is simply that most SWMs players don't have any DDM pieces. What we DO have are SWM pieces. And yes, there's a possibility of running out of RMs down the road. But that just drives home the importance of teaching people how easy it is to repaint figures, or how simple it is to add small colored dot stickers to the bases of your pieces in order to be able to tell them apart from each other.

If anything, I would much rather encourage people to go buy an old RS piece for a new RM, rather than encourage them to buy a DDM piece. If they're going to have to go and buy something they don't have already, it might as well be a SWM piece.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:05 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Or if your figures are on the other side of the table, and you have to write small since the sticker will likely be a yard sale sticker for prices.


That is a ridiculous arguement.

If we arent talking about a regionals/ gencon type tourney, then I really do not see the harm.

Now, if they had 4 or 5 different pieces being used to represent pieces that they are the RM for, then yea, maybe figure something else out. But, this a game. And games are about fun.

Also, and this might just be me personally, when it comes down for me to make a 'judges ruling' on something like that, I just ask of the rest of the players in general loudly (so I know they all heard me), "is anyone opposed to him using a Camaasi for his YVHD1?" I know I generally dont care, and if no one else does, then why should I be a jerk and enforce a rule that has little effect anyway in small cases?

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