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 Post subject: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:30 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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So we are waist deep in design the next V-set, R&R and I have heard rumors about V-set3. I hope that most of you have been able to play the new characters that DOTF has introduced and are enjoying the mechanics it has introduced to the game.


Over the holidays I had time that allowed me to open tackle boxes containing minis that have hardly ever been used and start customizing them to be used as my DOTF pieces. Some only required trimming off a lightsaber. Othesr required only repainting.

In looking for recommended minis for the next two sets, what do you think the design team should keep in mind? Should we worry about the cost of the minis we suggest? Should we try to utilize pieces that seldom get used?

What do you think? Did we do well on DOTF and should we follow the same sort of ideas in the future? Do you have ideas?

If you were a judge would you allow someone to sub in a Caamasi Noble for a YVH1 (Vong Hunter Droid)?

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:38 am 
Big Bad Brad
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Camaasi Noble for a YVH?!!! Heck no!

It's really not that hard to match half or more of the RCM from DOTF. I can really understand people not wanting to shell out 50 or 60 for Revan, that's truly understandable, but don't just brush it off because of it.

When people build competitive squads they tend to use that same one in Regionals, anywhere from 1-5 for some people, Gencon and various games in between. If it happens to be Revan, think about it, you're at least getting his worth out of it. If not no big deal.

Poggle the Lesser - Geonosian Overseer. Oh no, he's from an older set! Yeah, and still he cost like .49 definately doable if you need a couple of other things to account for the shipping costs.

In the end though, if you go without the RCM it's gotta be close. No way would I accept a Boma in place of a Destroyer Droid. Use a Sith Heavy Assault Droid or any other large based droid like the Chameleon.

Also when you go without the RCM try to avoid using pieces that could normally go in your squad. IOW, Fringe and your Faction of choice. If it's unavoidable, make sure it's clearly marked. A little paint here and there really doesn't ruin the mini and is still perfectly usable as whatever it normally is.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:27 am 
Master of the Order
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LESHIPPY wrote:
In looking for recommended minis for the next two sets, what do you think the design team should keep in mind? Should we worry about the cost of the minis we suggest? Should we try to utilize pieces that seldom get used?


I think using less expensive minis is desirable whenever there is a good fit. In some cases, there isn't much choice. Can't really do a Hutt without using a Jabba, for example.

Seldom used pieces - absolutely!

Using minis outside the faction of the v-piece should be continued, as it is a great way to identify them if customs aren't being used.

And I agree with TCW on the Camasi thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:44 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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OK but what about Vong and Mandos, they are pretty limited. Suggestions on what shoudl be used as vong as we move forward? I am not looking for uniques at the moment just army builders.

I agree that common sense need to be used when judging and bring minis to represent pieces. Unfotunately I fear that many gamers will roll low on the common sense ability. Sorry if this offends folks, but I have seen arguments over less.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:48 am 
Big Bad Brad
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LESHIPPY wrote:
OK but what about Vong and Mandos, they are pretty limited. Suggestions on what shoudl be used as vong as we move forward? I am not looking for uniques at the moment just army builders.

I agree that common sense need to be used when judging and bring minis to represent pieces. Unfotunately I fear that many gamers will roll low on the common sense ability. Sorry if this offends folks, but I have seen arguments over less.



Stormtroopers and Clones for Mando Army builders is working out great. I'd love to the Galactic Marine on a Mando team. :D The Sith Trooper I was a little "eh" about but it still works well enough.

Vong...that's a bit trickier. I would think though that most of the canon Vong non-uniques have been covered. I suppose the Blood Carver would be acceptable for...something, maybe a Shamed One??

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:55 am 
Death Star Designers
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Camaasi Noble for a YVH?!!! Heck no!

It's really not that hard to match half or more of the RCM from DOTF. I can really understand people not wanting to shell out 50 or 60 for Revan, that's truly understandable, but don't just brush it off because of it.

When people build competitive squads they tend to use that same one in Regionals, anywhere from 1-5 for some people, Gencon and various games in between. If it happens to be Revan, think about it, you're at least getting his worth out of it. If not no big deal.

Poggle the Lesser - Geonosian Overseer. Oh no, he's from an older set! Yeah, and still he cost like .49 definately doable if you need a couple of other things to account for the shipping costs.

In the end though, if you go without the RCM it's gotta be close. No way would I accept a Boma in place of a Destroyer Droid. Use a Sith Heavy Assault Droid or any other large based droid like the Chameleon.

Also when you go without the RCM try to avoid using pieces that could normally go in your squad. IOW, Fringe and your Faction of choice. If it's unavoidable, make sure it's clearly marked. A little paint here and there really doesn't ruin the mini and is still perfectly usable as whatever it normally is.


I pretty much agree with these points.

I think it's fine to not use the RCM, but try to get something at least sort of close (I don't own any Destroyer Droids, but I have 3 Chameleon Droids. They will play the part of Destroyers whenever I want to run the Mark II). It's even better if you take a piece that isn't the RCM and customize it into something that does look like the RCM. I'd be willing to let someone use a Krath War Droid, or a Super Battle Droid, or really almost any other medium based droid for a YVH, as long as it isn't a duplicate of something else in the squad (if you're running a bunch of SBDs, you can't use one of them as a YVH).


I think when it comes to using inexpensive or more available pieces, that should be done when possible. For example, Ben Skywalker in DotF could have used Luke Skywalkyer, Jedi Knight from Rebel Storm as the RCM. But that would be silly when they have Luke Skywalker, Jedi from KotOR that looks almost the same (same looking Luke, just a different pose).


As for things like Vong and Mandos, that is a bit of a sticky wicket. I think Mandos are being covered by things like Stormtroopers and Clone Troopers or other dudes in armor. While it's not perfect, it works. Vong are more difficult since really nothing looks much like a Vong other than a Vong. We're probably going to have to start using other aliens (like Rodians or Twileks) to represent Vong pieces, unfortunately.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:57 am 
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some clones and imperial troopers would work for mandos. but for vong i would say using fringe would help them. even a few sith peices would be cool. Pieces like the Utapauns, The abyssyn black sun thug, and the Nevaanian warrior would work. They are not played very often, and in a vong squad would stand out while swtill sticking with the melee theme of vong.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:00 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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One thing I'd like to add.

In reference to the YVH, it is a Common. So most people should have or be able to get this piece. But let's say you want to use 5 in your squad, but have 4. Don't use 4 Guard Droids and then a Krath!! Use 5 of the same medium based droids please! Even if it's battle droids (and you're not running Seps).

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:02 pm 
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DarthJawa wrote:
some clones and imperial troopers would work for mandos. but for vong i would say using fringe would help them. even a few sith peices would be cool. Pieces like the Utapauns, The abyssyn black sun thug, and the Nevaanian warrior would work. They are not played very often, and in a vong squad would stand out while swtill sticking with the melee theme of vong.



+1 for Utapauns

+1/2 for Nelvaanians

Not such a fan of the Abyssin.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:24 pm 
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I think it really depends on the goal of the mini. If they are just looking for a piece to represent it, then they might want to try to stick to the more common stuff. However, if it is to make a certain figure playable, then the design team needs to bite the bullet. And sadly, a lot of the crap pieces are in the earlier, hard to get sets. Clone Strike is one of the hardest to get sets, yet it is full of absolute crap that needs to be virtualized. I appreciate those who got into the game late, or those who didn't pick up crap pieces, but some of us have been around a while, and have a full collection. It would be nice to have some of them be usable.

Besides, with the custom rules in place, it won't be a huge issue, I don't think.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:30 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
Clone Strike is one of the hardest to get sets, yet it is full of absolute crap that needs to be virtualized. I appreciate those who got into the game late, or those who didn't pick up crap pieces, but some of us have been around a while, and have a full collection. It would be nice to have some of them be usable.

Besides, with the custom rules in place, it won't be a huge issue, I don't think.


Agree with both points.

I would add, it's not that hard to get many of those old pieces. Just a handful of the VR/R are tough, and overall the prices on most of them are much lower than when I was heavy into trying to finish those early sets.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:16 pm 
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I'm not sure what should be first priority, but top 2 should be ( I think)

Avoiding confusion (Making a Droid character with a lightsabe out of a Human with a blaster is an extreme example)
Accessibility (For example Reborn was a Great choice for the Revanchist)

Also important are
Avoiding pieces that could be used in the faction at the same time (not always possible)
and of course finding something that looks like the character


I think T'Surr could be some sorta vong (not my idea, but I like it)


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:44 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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LESHIPPY wrote:
In looking for recommended minis for the next two sets, what do you think the design team should keep in mind? Should we worry about the cost of the minis we suggest? Should we try to utilize pieces that seldom get used?

I think the cost of an individual mini should be considered, but not made a limiting factor, and definitely make use of the seldomly used/never used pieces (I'm looking at you Klatooinian Enforcer!)

LESHIPPY wrote:
What do you think? Did we do well on DOTF and should we follow the same sort of ideas in the future? Do you have ideas?

Overall DOTF was decent, and have already voiced my opinion on the pieces I have issues with, and so I won't reiterate them here. I have many ideas, for one Force Strike (and more powerful versions of it) might be nice to see.

LESHIPPY wrote:
If you were a judge would you allow someone to sub in a Caamasi Noble for a YVH1 (Vong Hunter Droid)?

If it's easily recognizable as not being a Caamasi then yes (i.e. a sticker on it that reads YVH1), especially considering the Caamasi is fringe and therefore could likely be a Caamasi and not a YVH1.

LESHIPPY wrote:
OK but what about Vong and Mandos, they are pretty limited.


D&DM Drow & Orcs would make for acceptable Vong (Drow Spider Priestess/Arachnomancer certainly has that shaper vibe going).

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The Sith Trooper I was a little "eh" about but it still works well enough.


The Sith Trooper kinda reminds me of the Mando Police from the recent TCW Mando Eps.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:51 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Lord_Ball wrote:

LESHIPPY wrote:
If you were a judge would you allow someone to sub in a Caamasi Noble for a YVH1 (Vong Hunter Droid)?

If it's easily recognizable as not being a Caamasi then yes (i.e. a sticker on it that reads YVH1), especially considering the Caamasi is fringe and therefore could likely be a Caamasi and not a YVH1.


A sticker?! Don't you think that's a tad absurd? I could think of one instance where Iwould accept this, and that would be a kid 10 or under. Even then, I suspect a 10 year old would come up with something better...

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:04 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:

LESHIPPY wrote:
If you were a judge would you allow someone to sub in a Caamasi Noble for a YVH1 (Vong Hunter Droid)?

If it's easily recognizable as not being a Caamasi then yes (i.e. a sticker on it that reads YVH1), especially considering the Caamasi is fringe and therefore could likely be a Caamasi and not a YVH1.


A sticker?! Don't you think that's a tad absurd? I could think of one instance where Iwould accept this, and that would be a kid 10 or under. Even then, I suspect a 10 year old would come up with something better...


Why would a sticker be absurd?
It's not about being as close a representation as absolutely possible (though those are nice), it's about being simple and effective in conveying accurate information. Essentially DOTF is nothing more than a set of Proxys anyway, so having some form of information easily available to identify what that proxy represents is going to keep things flowing smoother.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:07 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Lord_Ball wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:

LESHIPPY wrote:
If you were a judge would you allow someone to sub in a Caamasi Noble for a YVH1 (Vong Hunter Droid)?

If it's easily recognizable as not being a Caamasi then yes (i.e. a sticker on it that reads YVH1), especially considering the Caamasi is fringe and therefore could likely be a Caamasi and not a YVH1.


A sticker?! Don't you think that's a tad absurd? I could think of one instance where Iwould accept this, and that would be a kid 10 or under. Even then, I suspect a 10 year old would come up with something better...


Why would a sticker be absurd?
It's not about being as close a representation as absolutely possible (though those are nice), it's about being simple and effective in conveying accurate information. Essentially DOTF is nothing more than a set of Proxys anyway, so having some form of information easily available to identify what that proxy represents is going to keep things flowing smoother.


I disagree, it IS indeed about being as close a representation as possible. Just look at the current customs rule in the Floor Rules.

It IS indeed about being simple and effective in conveying accurate information. A sticker on a Caamasi is not a simple or accurate way to do this. It may be simple to put a sticker on it, but its simplicity decreases when it comes to conveying information.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:24 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
It may be simple to put a sticker on it, but its simplicity decreases when it comes to conveying information.

I could see that being the case if you are playing against someone that has trouble reading, but as I said if the sticker clearly states what the figure is representing (in this case YVH1, and I'll add in, is placed on the figure in a way that it won't easily fall off such as on the top of the base).

In regards to the use of Custom figures in the floor rules, you should actually consider the "authorized" models section a bit more relevant to the handling of DOTF (since DOTF doesn't have any official base models).

Floor Rules wrote:
604. Authorized Models, Stat Cards and Terrain Maps

Star Wars Miniatures models released by Wizards of the Coast LLC are legal for tournament play. Players must have the official corresponding stat cards for all registered miniatures. Players using multiples of the same model need only one copy of the official stat card for those models (with the exception of conversions being used,) but still must provide a clear method for all players to readily know the status of each individual model. Players must make their stat cards available to opponents or tournament officials upon request.

The 181st Imperial Pilot miniature is used to represent the model for this stat card. All stated rules in 604 providing a clear method for all players to readily know the status of each model are still applicable. If both the 181st Imperial Pilot and the Elite AT-AT Driver are used in the same squad, a clear method for all players to readily identify each individual miniature must be in place.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:27 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Lord_Ball wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
It may be simple to put a sticker on it, but its simplicity decreases when it comes to conveying information.

I could see that being the case if you are playing against someone that has trouble reading, but as I said if the sticker clearly states what the figure is representing (in this case YVH1, and I'll add in, is placed on the figure in a way that it won't easily fall off such as on the top of the base).

In regards to the use of Custom figures in the floor rules, you should actually consider the "authorized" models section a bit more relevant to the handling of DOTF (since DOTF doesn't have any official base models).

Floor Rules wrote:
604. Authorized Models, Stat Cards and Terrain Maps

Star Wars Miniatures models released by Wizards of the Coast LLC are legal for tournament play. Players must have the official corresponding stat cards for all registered miniatures. Players using multiples of the same model need only one copy of the official stat card for those models (with the exception of conversions being used,) but still must provide a clear method for all players to readily know the status of each individual model. Players must make their stat cards available to opponents or tournament officials upon request.

The 181st Imperial Pilot miniature is used to represent the model for this stat card. All stated rules in 604 providing a clear method for all players to readily know the status of each model are still applicable. If both the 181st Imperial Pilot and the Elite AT-AT Driver are used in the same squad, a clear method for all players to readily identify each individual miniature must be in place.


Or if your figures are on the other side of the table, and you have to write small since the sticker will likely be a yard sale sticker for prices. And Again, check the CUSTOMS part. It explains much better than you think you have.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #4 Minis for R&R and V-set 3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:41 pm 
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I actually kind of think you should use the mini (proxy) shown on the card with little to no exceptions (maybe pieces over $20 could see alternates). When you think that the set was free and we were used to paying $100 + to field an entire set I don't think it too unreasonable to hunt down pieces that should be pretty easy to get and cheap to boot. Think it will be very confusing if you run into players in competitive games especially, that are running proxies that in no way come close to representing the V-Set mini...especially if you allow them to use more than one proxy for the same one.


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