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 Post subject: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:33 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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I was going to hold this one until #4 or 5, but other statements in other threads has prompted me to push it ahead.

LoboStele wrote:
As for good ole fashioned pride....I dunno. If the Jedi Challenge is based on a bunch of 'fun' events, then the people who win the Jedi Challenge will be the ones that ignore the 'fun' aspect of it and play cut-throat stuff anyways. How much pride is there in beating up on people, when they weren't planning to play tough to beat squads anyways?



First off, who are these "cut throat" people?

Second, why do we continue to do this to ourselves?

We have constant complaints about the Gha/Nachkt combo. Yet everyone plays it, though I know some will say its because someone else will play it...sigh.

Example A: Two players with Lobot and Gha Nachkt face each other. Player A already outactivates Player B 12-10. Both players know it's going to be 6 mouse droids...but what does that bring to the game at hand?

Why not just agree to play something else, that actually helps your squad at hand?

Basically, I hoping to discuss this self fulfilling prophecy of "cut-throatism".

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:46 pm 
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all depends on the manner of the game

if its a friendly then you can say "ok how about we just go for max 4 pieces each rather than the obvious 10". If you alter the the choice and say "ok no 10 mice" then someone might bring 8 mice and a gran

However, in a tourney you can't really argue with the guy who uses the game rules to give himself the best advantage even if they don't do much other than sit in the room.

Don't hate the playa and all that.......

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:11 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Does this have anything to with R&R? (Just curious) :D

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:12 pm 
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kothandcandy wrote:
Does this have anything to with R&R? (Just curious) :D



Not even sure which field this came out of???

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:08 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
kothandcandy wrote:
Does this have anything to with R&R? (Just curious) :D



Not even sure which field this came out of???

Well the first Bothan Transmission is Interesting Topic Number 1.

And it came out of left field. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:31 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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kothandcandy wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
kothandcandy wrote:
Does this have anything to with R&R? (Just curious) :D



Not even sure which field this came out of???

Well the first Bothan Transmission is Interesting Topic Number 1.

And it came out of left field. ;)


But what about Interesting Topic #2??

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:34 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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fingersandteeth wrote:
However, in a tourney you can't really argue with the guy who uses the game rules to give himself the best advantage even if they don't do much other than sit in the room.


Yeah, but if doing so still doesn't help him out activate you, because you do the same thing then what's the point?

And if he already out activates me and I have no reins...agin why bother with the mice to that number at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:04 am 
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Well - I think it's innate in the gamer's mentality. That's kinda what I like about the game - give me the rules (whatever they are) and I'll try and come up with the best squad/strategy within those rules. I often like playing alternate rules games - it's just a new challenge to come up with "the best" within those confines.

You want something without certain figures? Ban them for a tournament. That's the only way you can assure it. If it's all a gentleman's agreement that everyone goes by, or an official rule for the tournament - either way it's the same result.

Why not remove any question or ambiguity? Just make a set of rules. Ban the top 25 most used unique pieces and limit the number of certain non-unique.

Just keep in mind that THAT IS the fun for some people. Figuring out powerful combos that others haven't. Or even if others have - playing it better.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:20 am 
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I think it comes down to the fact that for some people playing to win is the only fun they have....they dont know how to both play to win and play for pure enjoyment, its one or the other or one through the other depending on how you look at it.

Some people have the ability to lose every game and still have a blast, others just hate to lose, even to themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:38 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Yeah, but if doing so still doesn't help him out activate you, because you do the same thing then what's the point?

And if he already out activates me and I have no reins...agin why bother with the mice to that number at all?


sometimes just keeping up to within 3-4 activations of an opponent is enough to prevent them having free reign at the end of the round.

In anycase, if i'm playing a game and i'm hopelessly outactivated the likelyhood of me sticking with teh huge activation choice is minor. I'll usually pick up a bgd, override or some other tech that i might be able to get an upper hand in.

Same with if i outactivate by large amounts.

However, in the champs last year i mostly brought in Garindan to synergize with my squad whether i was outactivated or not. It was down to my strategic choice. I felt that (for the most part) i could get the drop on opponents whether i was outactivated or not (exception was V Jason where i knew a strafe was unavoidable). However, if i was playing a mirror (no one had my exact build) thats probably the time i would shell out for activations because the activation advantage is most likely to play off and I'd hope the other guys decides to get cute.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:09 am 
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First of all, I have no problem with people bringing the competitive thunder as much as possible in the Jedi Challenge, or, for that matter, in any other GenCon event. If I'm going to drive all the way to Indy and drop the money, I'm going to try to put my best foot forward in each event. Don't get me wrong, I'll try different things--I certainly wouldn't run the same squad in Mystery Map, JC, and the Champs--but I'll try things that I think have a chance to win games. And I dunno, I guess I reject the distinction between "fun" and "competitive." For me, anyway, it's fun to play as well as I possibly can and see how I do against other players who are also trying their best. And that is fun for me whether I win or lose--more fun if I win, perhaps, but some of the most fun games I had at Gencon, even in the Champs, were games where I tried hard but lost.

If the issue is that we're tired of seeing certain combos run all the time, even in the "minor" or "fun" events, the solution is to either ban them or alter the format of the game in such a way that those combos are no longer dominant (this, by the way, is the beauty of Tile Wars--it's an event that people treat competitively, but it seems "fun" because it isn't all spinthemouse-spinthemouse).

The solution to seeing certain combos run all the time is most assuredly NOT to say nothing in the rules to indicate that people shouldn't run those things, and then complain about people when they do run them in perfectly legal squads. If you want to change the meta of the "minor" events at GenCon, alter the format in some interesting way, but don't sit there and think that creating a shame culture is the solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:49 am 
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buttcabbge wrote:
First of all, I have no problem with people bringing the competitive thunder as much as possible in the Jedi Challenge, or, for that matter, in any other GenCon event. If I'm going to drive all the way to Indy and drop the money, I'm going to try to put my best foot forward in each event.


My first game in the Mystery Map tournament was against someone who'd brought a meta squad and he beat my Exar squad. I had no problem with that, and I found that game enjoyable.

I think that the more restrictions we place on events, the fewer people will end up playing. I understand the frustration felt by some that some people will ignore the 'fun' monikor attached to some events, but that is still preferable to a drop in participants.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:52 am 
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buttcabbge wrote:
First of all, I have no problem with people bringing the competitive thunder as much as possible in the Jedi Challenge, or, for that matter, in any other GenCon event. If I'm going to drive all the way to Indy and drop the money, I'm going to try to put my best foot forward in each event.

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If I wanted to play silly squads, I'd play with my kids at home. But if I'm going to pay lotsa $$$ to go to Gencon, then you bet I'm going to be sure to do the best I can.
buttcabbge wrote:
And I dunno, I guess I reject the distinction between "fun" and "competitive." For me, anyway, it's fun to play as well as I possibly can and see how I do against other players who are also trying their best.

+10
The thing I enjoy most about SWM is the competition...pushing to do my best against the best opponents I can find. To me, that's fun, and exciting, and memorable. I think it's unhelpful to create a culture of shame about which squads people bring to the various events at Gencon.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:28 am 
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During Prep for gencon Echo called me and told me he figured out a counter for what was going to be the meta last year. I was shocked when he told me it was tons of override and lots of mice. You know what? he made the right call. He lost 1 game the entire champs. Do i dislike the build he used? you bet. The thing to remember though is he used a perfectly legal squad and just played better then everyone else.

I get a little agrivated when i hear people say something like "just ban so and so" or "nice guys wouldn't use that combo of pieces" Everyone has the exact same amount of pieces to pull from to build their teams we shouldn't tell people that they arent allowed to play certain squads because of it being "ungentlemanlike"

I reject the stigma that playing whatever squads i want to be a bad thing. If i want to play Lobot/Gha/Dodonna i should be allowed to. We can't punish people for being creative or praise people for being unprepared. Lobot/Gha is a perfectly legal combo and should stay a perfectly legal combo.

Now onto your Questions.

First off, who are these "cut throat" people? Kind of a harsh term but i played my championship squad in the JC 200 and Mandalore the Indominable at MM. My champ squad went 3-1 and mandalore went 2-2. Which do you think i enjoyed more? The 3-1 tourney of course. I dont know why we would label someone cut throat for playing a legal squad, thats just downright cruel and uncalled for.


Second, why do we continue to do this to ourselves? I don't understand this question. I read this to say, why do we play competitively when its supposed to be a fun setting? For me its because i love competition. I also drive over 14 hours and spend a lot of money to get to gencon so when i get there im bringing my best and want other to do the same.



Basically, I hoping to discuss this self fulfilling prophecy of "cut-throatism".


Ok i do think you need a new term for this. This is WAY more violent then it should be. We play a miniatures game that has ewoks in it lol.

I like playing competitively, thats why i got into this game. The collecting part is fun, seeing my favorite characters in cool poses is neat. Yet the reason i play this game is to play against the very best and see where i fit in. If that makes me a bad guy then I'm a very bad dude. I dont really enjoy the faction pure, senario, or mass battle games personaly but i know lots of people do and thats awesome. If people want to play fun type games then i say let them they have every right. Just like i have the right to play what i want to in any event.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:42 am 
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In my experience, "fun" formats end up with far more "abusive" games and most often with far more limited meta's than a competitive tournament. I play competitive tournaments for the competition, and the fun that it brings. As I define them, there are 4 competitive events at Gencon, the champs, and the 3 JC events - perhaps the team tournament could fit in here as well.

Otherwise, everything else we run is designed to be the "fun" events. I hate trying to enforce a gentleman's agreement or an unwritten rule, because it's a pain in the ass, they lead almost universally to hurt feelings (there is always, always one guy's "fun" squad which is another guy's personal anti-fun squad), and they lead to far more abusive games than anything else.

Generally speaking, I don't really even play all of the events I listed as "highly competitive". Every year I've brought a different squad to every event, with the exception of I think 2x I played my champ 150 (altered version) in the JC 150 event to learn some things about it. Last year, I brought Sith Lightning to MM, Landspeeder without Dodonna to Team, Hired Killer to 100, Momentum Masters to 150, and my Skybuck squad to 200. I did not play in the champs, but I had fun in every event, even in the games where my chances of winning were low because I was using a sub-par squad. I most certainly don't begrudge my opponent's for playing with their best squad against me however, as that's just stupid. Nor do I ever feel like I am entirely dependent on my opponent for what I bring with reinforcements, or to play with in general. In other words, I don't need a gentleman's agreement to play what I want to play.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:47 am 
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So far, Deri seems to be the only one who gets this particular topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:02 am 
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Ok let's simplify this a little bit.

I have a squad with 3 activations Gha, Lobot and some 161 point piece. My opponent has 11 acts and no reins to bring in. Will I use Mice...yes.

Same squad and my opponent has the same squad: Why bother with the mice at all on both of our parts?

Same squad and my opponent has one less activation: This one's a bit stickier. We both can bring in 10 mice, but how does that change activation control? It really doesn't untill pieces start getting killed.

A lot of this also gets into squad type etc...

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:07 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Ok let's simplify this a little bit.

I have a squad with 3 activations Gha, Lobot and some 161 point piece. My opponent has 11 acts and no reins to bring in. Will I use Mice...yes.

Same squad and my opponent has the same squad: Why bother with the mice at all on both of our parts?

Same squad and my opponent has one less activation: This one's a bit stickier. We both can bring in 10 mice, but how does that change activation control? It really doesn't untill pieces start getting killed.

A lot of this also gets into squad type etc...


Because you don't know what your opponent is bringing, and many people choose the "safer" route. Generally, I don't do that, unless I deem it the only or best possible choice. I often bring less activations and go for other support, especially if the activations aren't that far off, or there isn't an inherent value in outactivating once the engagement starts (I don't fear losing a piece in the early rounds due to my opponent getting the first shots off - if it means I get the rest of my squad in place).

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:10 am 
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True, I think though in the above examples both you and your opponent know that the other can bring mice. And do they really add something to either's game at that point. Then it goes back to the title of the thread. Why not just agree to go a different way? Even competitively, I know that sounds anathema, and technically against the rules...

Still if my opponent suggested that, I woudl put my faith in him to do the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #3: A Gentleman's Agreement
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:16 am 
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It's the same reason everyone played Snowspeeder/Teth 2 years ago and GOWK/whatever the regionals before that. People play what they think is the best and they are most comfortable with. It is top-level competition so people bring their best. If it wasn't Gha/Lobot/Mice (which I think was only in 1 top 8 squad) it would be some other combo or piece like Yobuck who had 3 top 8 appearances. I have said this before but there will always be a "best" squad (or squad type or combo) so you just have to be prepared for it. I personally never play the "top" squad because I hate the mirror matchups so I always try and find something that is competitive and has a shot against the top squad. Some people are the opposite and love to build to beat the mirror.

The new stuff that the design team comes out with will hopefully help change the meta over time by introducing new pieces. I think that DOTF certainly will make people think twice about Dodonna because of all the subtle counters for it (mandos, OR, Vong, possibly Sith). The question will really become at what point do people stop playing something because it doesn't help anymore or do they keep playing it because it might help in some obscure matchup. It really just depends on how the meta falls. If the top squads start moving back toward a few big beefy guys, then squads with only a couple damage dealers and a ton of acts will start to fall out of favor. But as long as high act squads keep winning then that is what will remain in favor.

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