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 Post subject: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:35 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Is the cost on this piece, 24, a typo? Should it be 34 to be consistent with the other pieces that have the dominate ability?

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:37 pm 
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It doesn't have the dominate ability. And, yes, this one was spoiled long ago, so I think they would have caught any error in cost a loooong time ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:57 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Quote:
It doesn't have the dominate ability.


You are correct and my questions did not state this piece had dominate. However, there are pieces which do have the dominate ability and their cost is higher. And my question is the cost of this piece compared to the cost of those pieces as Master of Pain is very similar to dominate.

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so I think they would have caught any error in cost a loooong time ago.


Errors get made (items of note: 181st pilot sculpt released in IE looked like an AT-AT driver and there is the Errata). Not having been privy to the discussion of this piece during development, I am not certain this question was ever asked.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:10 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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The piece is supposed to be 24 points as listed in the card.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:19 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Providing more definition to my question:

Master of Pain - Damage is guaranteed with the force abilities (provided the receiving character doesn't have the ability to counter the damage). Then a save is made and if failed the control of this character changes for a longer period of time than Dominate and has the ability to move, attack, use force points if not activated or remains in place for attacks of opportunity if activated. And there is the Betrayal caveat added.

Sly Moore has similar stats and costs 28 with a negatives of being unique, not doing damage. The monk, cost 32, also has similar stats with the bonus of an ATT stat, damage stat, and not being unique.

Was the logic applied that Sly and B'Omar Monk are over-costed?

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:22 pm 
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nuksaa wrote:

Was the logic applied that Sly and B'Omar Monk are over-costed?


Not a rules question, but yes, generally dominate has been overcosted since the change to not allowing an automatic fail of a save. When's the last time you saw one of those two used in a competitive game?

But you also ignored a critical difference as well that gives favor to dominate. You can dominate your own characters, which at all times was the much more significant and better use of dominate anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:32 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
But you also ignored a critical difference as well that gives favor to dominate. You can dominate your own characters, which at all times was the much more significant and better use of dominate anyway.


Actually, I did not as my discussion is not the application of dominate or Master of Pain towards legal targets. As I have been playing the game for many years, I am well aware of the application of domination during game play. Several of us know full well the disappointment met at the Caamasi Noble card. So I was concerned initially an error may have been made and provided my reasoning why an error may have been made.

As I have been out of the game since August due to job consuming all my time, I am really getting my full exposure to the DotF during the past week; and have not been able to participate in any discussion prior. I enjoy designing my own custom characters and have been a part of several sites based on custom pieces. However, these sites seem to quickly descend into custom pieces which unbalance the game and turn into 'Billy-Badass-untouchable-pieces' and always end up with a cost well below what I would assign such a piece. Building pieces is more than just adding/developing cool abilities due to the need to account for all the other pieces/abilities existing in the game. Whenever a new set comes out with new abilities, I like to set the card side by side with similar cards and abilities in order to grasp the value differences in the pieces as it applies to the abilities/stats the various pieces have in various factions.

I hope this provides more insight as the the whys of my questions. Several of the responses to my questions...including the ones deleted...leave me with an impression that I am saying 'You guys really f'ed this one up', which I am not. I am fully aware the effort it takes in designing this set and am fully aware of the efforts of many others, well before WotC stopped making sets, to provide additional accessories to add variety and continued fun/challenge to game play (ie Jedicartographer's map development).

So to continue the discussion, I am curious to the value of domination as an ability vs cost. As it seems the Master of Pain is stating the value of domination is less than the original design. The downside of Master of Pain is not able to target your own pieces and requires a specific trigger (doing damage) but the upside allows potential movement, longer duration, an additional activation and a bear trap. Additionally, I am curious what should the cost be on the B'Omar monk.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:47 pm 
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The cost of the monk and Sly are fine as is. Dominate is potentially more powerful since you can control which pieces you will have access to Dominate and structure your squad around making it effective.

The cost of the new guy is perhaps slightly aggressive. This is also fine since he's faction specific and this ability, while similar to Dominate, is wholy limited by which pieces your opponent brings, and of limited value where the character has already activated, not to mention can actually hinder you in being unable to attack/defeat said character for the remainder of the round in some cases. So the greatest values of Dominate are lost here making the ability rightfully cheaper.

The character the ability is attached to is notably better beyond this ability, and so I think it's fair to say he's overall better and thus aggressively priced in comparison.

For apples to apples, maybe put this ability theoretically on the Monk instead of Dominate and I don't doubt the designers and playtesters would put a lower price on it too.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:05 pm 
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Quote:
and of limited value where the character has already activated,


But even as an activated character, with the duration lasting the entire round and being part of the squad now affects legal targets of the opponent. So I still see a significant plus to this ability, as is could very well force an opponent's movement.

Quote:
he's faction specific


This I didn't fully consider but did consider the slight dual faction aspect considering Mandalorians can be pulled into Sith with Ulic's abilty.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:57 pm 
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Also consider that he has has one extremely powerful counter now: Vong. As is, he is still useful for taking out Mouse screens. And he goes down rather easily from range.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:55 pm 
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nuksaa wrote:
Quote:
and of limited value where the character has already activated,


But even as an activated character, with the duration lasting the entire round and being part of the squad now affects legal targets of the opponent. So I still see a significant plus to this ability, as is could very well force an opponent's movement.

Quote:
he's faction specific


This I didn't fully consider but did consider the slight dual faction aspect considering Mandalorians can be pulled into Sith with Ulic's abilty.


This is going to sound more sarcastic than intended but you're arguing pebbles in boulderworld. Neither of these minor case-specific "advantages" do anything significant to offset the major related disadvantages that result in this ability being costed as far less useful than Dominate. If you think you can somehow make this guy far outweigh his cost, great, play him. In general I think he's got one good build (Revan) and he's just a "fun" piece beyond that.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:50 pm 
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40 HP 16 Def 0 ATT 0 DAM

that is why he costs 24. One Lancer Strafe he's dead, ONe yobuck Gallop he's dead, One shot from Han he's dead, and he list goes on. He is a fun piece but is pretty easily beaten when you consider that just putting an uggie in his targetting path keeps him from doing anything to you. Or just put activated stuff in front, assuming they aren't doing the exar kun trick of course :).

He is a piece that will be like Zuckuss was in Dark Times you will see him everywhere for a while then when people realize how easy he is beaten you won't see him as much.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:52 am 
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A number of very good points have been made with respect to the dynamic of this particular piece (faction-specific, more limited range of targets, etc), but I think it's also worth noting two of (what I believe are) the objectives of this V-Set:

1) Bring balance to the game
2) Make/Keep as many pieces playable as possible

Taken together, I think this means that we will see more pieces priced (depending on your viewpoint) "aggressively" or "competitively," and that this will probably be most apparent in the "lesser" factions (Sith, Vong, Old Rep, Mando).

Consider also that the Bomarr Monk and Sly Moore are both extremely old pieces, and the costing structure of the game has gotten more and more aggressive has time has gone on. They were expensive in their day, and their day is a bygone age...

By the way, if you're looking for a place to play with customs, why not head here? http://newswminisdatabase.proboards.com/index.cgi. Things are a little dead right now, but some new blood could be what we need.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:22 am 
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gwek wrote:
Consider also that the Bomarr Monk and Sly Moore are both extremely old pieces, and the costing structure of the game has gotten more and more aggressive has time has gone on. They were expensive in their day, and their day is a bygone age...


Exactly. We can't make comparisons of new figures with old ones (just doesn't work). For example, look at Cad Bane and Jango Fett, BH. Jango is 2 points more than Cad and cannot come close to being as good.

To me the Sith Inquisitor is easily countered. He also is not as effective against Separitist squads and, as someone mentioned before, is all together useless against Vong. Also, his Master of Pain could be used against his own squad. If you gain control of a character, your opponent can kill it to gain the points for it instead of you. Point being is that the Sith Inquisitor isn't as good as it seems at first sight.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:38 am 
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I think one of the most important points was never said here. Not only is he faction specific he is faction specific to the single most over cost faction ever. If you can make multiple competitive squads with the sith now because of minis like him, I say give me ten more under cost minis so I can use my Darth Bane and not feel like I am going to have an heart attack when I see his cost. Bandon is also under cost and so is Revan Sith Lord. I think that they did what needed to be done with this faction so that it could be played.

Rant over. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Question on Sith Inquisitor
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Jester007 wrote:
Exactly. We can't make comparisons of new figures with old ones (just doesn't work). For example, look at Cad Bane and Jango Fett, BH. Jango is 2 points more than Cad and cannot come close to being as good.


The discussion is about the value of the abilities between the pieces not the figures themselves. The game development has a foundation which cannot simply be disregarded because some believe it was an 'old' concept. The concept remains the same. Cad and Jango is a good comparison when it comes to development of cost and evolution of the game. Base stats are similar with exception of HP. They share the abilities Flight, Double Att, and Bounty Hunter (Cad being a little better) along with being Fringe followers.

Jango has the Flame Thrower 20. Flame thrower is a powerful ability as you can look at the Zabrak fringer and see the value of this ability vs cost with direct damage and potential to affect multiple pieces including your own. Missiles is another good ability due to much of the same reasons as flame thrower with exception of the save ability to avoid all damage. Jedi Hunter and Sniper are Jango's best abilities as they improve att/dam and legal targets. Cad has Greater Mobile and Twin, the opportunity to avoid most ranged damage with evade and ability to diminish opponents targeting ability with stealth. You can see how powerful the abilities of Cad as compared to Jango. Jango is tank but he is much slower than Cad and the Missiles ability is fairly wasted on Jango due to why risk not doing damage vice doing a normal attack considering the likelihood if an opponent bunching his units together is slim knowing missiles are on the board. Additionally Cad's abilities are not limited or diminished by the opponents game play in the same manner as Jango.

Quote:
and their day is a bygone age...


but the ability stays the same even if the usefulness of the ability is not suitable in today's game. Granted I hang out with several system engineers. There is the base line and you adjust from the base line depending on which direction you desire the equation or variables to go.

I believe I understand now that Master of Pain is more limited than Dominate. 1) There are an increased number of pieces it doesn't affect & 2) the number of pieces affected on the game board are reduced by an approximate factor of .45

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