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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:49 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Sithborg wrote:
Yes, the meta is going to change. It always changes. Probably the biggest change since Universe or COTF. I have yet to see anything that completely invalidates previous stuff that wasn't already crap (Komari, though even she gets a small boost).


The issue isn't that the meta is changing... the issue is that, in my opinion, the shift is the largest ever... and based on what I'm seeing, is enough to invalidate much of the old figures. This bothers the living crap out of me. It is what drove me (and many others) away from other games... Magic... Warhammer... etc. Am I the only one? No idea. Am I the minority? Based on the fervent WotC/Rob love expressed here... most likely. Am I "right" in that my opinion on design is "better"? No way to know, so moot.

Either way, I'm definitely disappointed in what I'm seeing. I *like* new stuff... I *like* shifts... but I do not like Start.Over mentality, and much of what we're seeing *feels* that way to me.

Lobo, and others, feel that the changes are all good and won't be too massive. I see no evidence to support that belief... except faith. But then, that's the beauty of faith... it requires no evidence, just belief. I tend instead to look at the math... gauge based on what players do and how they play... and look for the holes based on player skill. I'm far from always right, but I have enough experience as a game designer and game editor to spot holes... and were this set coming across my desk I'd be asking a LOT of hard questions... most of which have not been answered here. Given the significant number of pieces now revealed, and the percentage of those that are, compared with previous similar pieces, dramatically more powerful (or cheaper, or both)... I think it is now pretty safe for me to make broader assumptions.

Like the rest of you... I'll play this set... I'll thoroughly examine the new meta... and I'll see what the physical effects are on the meta game. Perhaps your faith is correct... maybe Rob has some grand plan. My feeling is, however, that he does not... that rather, these changes are a combination of marketing and sales pressure to make "cool stuff" and a TLAR (see previous post) design assessment. It still *could* work out... but right now, I look through most of my figures and wonder why I would use that figure now. That bothers the hell out of me. Frankly, I think it should bother everyone... but I'm egocentric that way ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:28 am 
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After seeing some of the previews from the spoiler thread, I agree with Grambo that there will indeed be a massive meta shift, but i dont see it as a bad thing. Every shift gets adapted to in time. Jedi Hunter was so uber when he came out, but people learned how to beat him. This will be no different.

As far as what it spells for older pieces, it still remains to be seen. We are still missing too much data. Although, i really dont like all these big changes coming along and not helping very many factions. I am afraid that the other factions will much less playable...At least until the next set.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:04 am 
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More bad news. I took the DPCI number down to the Bellevue Nebraska Target just now and it shows that they will be getting it on DECEMBER 2nd!

They did say that if it is an exclusive it could come in any time before then also.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:53 am 
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No offense meant Grambo, but I'm getting pretty tired of your constant posts about how this set is going to destroy the game and anyone who doesn't agree with you about that is some kind of rabid fanboy who refuses to see reason. Having a wait and see attitude and thinking that Rob and whoever else is behind the game will not completely destroy everything about the game with this new set when that hasn't happened with any of the other new sets is perfectly reasonable.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:18 am 
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homer_sapien wrote:
No offense meant Grambo, but I'm getting pretty tired of your constant posts about how this set is going to destroy the game and anyone who doesn't agree with you about that is some kind of rabid fanboy who refuses to see reason. Having a wait and see attitude and thinking that Rob and whoever else is behind the game will not completely destroy everything about the game with this new set when that hasn't happened with any of the other new sets is perfectly reasonable.


Never said you were a rabid fanboy... just that I haven't seen anyone attempt to refute any of the concerns I've outlined with anything concrete really. Lots of "Rob knows what he's doing"... lots of general hand waving dismissal of concerns and observations. Yes, the implication is there... but frankly, it feels somewhat deserved. If I've offended you, my apologies. I'm not trying to be a troll here... I've been just trying to point out what seems obvious to me... and respond when my observations are refuted. Nothing more.

As for wait and see attitude... I'll observe that we've now seen a pretty significant number of figures, hence my feeling that we're seeing enough to establish a pattern. Keep in mind most of the earlier "wait and see" was based on only seeing a half-dozen cards. Now we've seen a bunch... and the power curve keeps going up.

Simply put, homer, I'm shifting from the general concern I started at to genuine worry based on the stuff being shown. Some are awesome... some are insignificant... but some are just simply too much bang for the buck, and as noted will, in my opinion, largely invalidate many previous models.

Your faith is based on "well, they haven't broken before". Guess what... WotC has... FREQUENTLY. They've thrown out entire game systems because they screwed them up. Assuming they are immune to stupidity is... well... foolish. I'm NOT making assumptions, other than one... that now that we've seen a large percentage of the new models that the rest of the models are likely to be similar in power scope. This feels like a pretty reasonable assumption... but absolutely *could* be wrong. If it is... groovy... then perhaps it isn't going to be as large a shift as I fear. However, I think it will be... based on what we're seeing, I expect that I'll go through my list of prior models, and the list of models that are "revitalized" will be dramatically lower than the list of models that are "eliminated", for all intents.

Oh, and I will make one more observation, homer. I'm pretty much the only... THE ONLY... guy on either side of the argument admitting I may be mistaken in my assumptions and observations. Frankly... I'm begging to be. As I said before, I hope to hell Rob is a genius... because as it stands now, I feel he may well be about to make his biggest (and first apparently) significant blunder. It won't destroy the game... but it may well actually reduce the pool of playable models... which is precisely what a set should never, EVER do.

Anyway, I'll happily stop commenting, if I'm offending folks. Tried that before... but got re-engaged by a pile of folks seeming to want the conversation to remain alive. Perhaps I was wrong about that too.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:48 am 
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Grambo wrote:
It won't destroy the game... but it may well actually reduce the pool of playable models... which is precisely what a set should never, EVER do.

Although I agree with this in principle, my head knows this is never going to be true.

I don't think anyone is really denying that there isn't some powercreep, but they are denying that it is game-breaking.

I've posted on this subject several times before and each time I post the same thing... MARKETING. WOTC, like any company, needs to bring out a better product so you'll buy it. If the new SWM were not as good as older ones no one would need to buy the new ones, WOTC would make no money and the game would end.

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The issue isn't that the meta is changing... the issue is that, in my opinion, the shift is the largest ever... and based on what I'm seeing, is enough to invalidate much of the old figures. This bothers the living crap out of me. It is what drove me (and many others) away from other games... Magic... Warhammer... etc. Am I the only one? No idea. Am I the minority? Based on the fervent WotC/Rob love expressed here... most likely. Am I "right" in that my opinion on design is "better"? No way to know, so moot.

Then surely by now you can see that this is the norm for collectable games?

I don't think anyone likes it but I really can't see the industry changing this practice anytime soon.

All I do is sit back, buy what I like and stay cool about it. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:16 pm 
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Bail Ohmar wrote:
I don't think anyone is really denying that there isn't some powercreep, but they are denying that it is game-breaking.


I dunno, the game is really redefining itself with this set versus any other set previously. There is some complicated abilities teamed with really screwing with your opponent (tactics guy, diplomat, etc) combined with just some ultra powerful Force powers.

Everything about this just screams different. With differences comes uncertainty, and negativity. Some people revel in making changes, others don't. I know where I am on this issue, I dislike sweeping changes. I know I am not alone, I have seen people leave games for less, and I have preached this for a long time. Gamers are FICKLE.

Compare this to the introduction of the pogs in Heroclix, or introduction of indestructible in MtG. Some people like the changes, others just get frustrated and quit.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:22 pm 
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just that I haven't seen anyone attempt to refute any of the concerns I've outlined with anything concrete really.


I put my reasons why I think Blizz 1 is appropriately costed as less than Boba BH in clear detail. I've similarly noted why I think the other pieces you consider underpriced seem fairly accurrately priced to me in other threads. It's fine if you disagree, but I don't think it's fair to say no one has attempted to detail why they disagree with you--I have, in at least as much detail as you have put into saying why you think they are undercosted.

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Oh, and I will make one more observation, homer. I'm pretty much the only... THE ONLY... guy on either side of the argument admitting I may be mistaken in my assumptions and observations.


Since they are opinions based on incomplete info, does it really need to be stated explicitly? None of us will know for sure until the FU metagame takes shape over the next 3-4 months. The full stats will help. The first couple weeks will help. But it's still speculation for quite a while and we don't really need to append each post with "...but I could be wrong!" :)

The instant they reveal a character with Boba BH stats for 20 points few will be disagreeing with you. (Except me, as it still won't meet my definition of "powercreep"--it'll just be a piece that's horribly mispriced and a unprecidented detriment to the game.)

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Anyway, I'll happily stop commenting, if I'm offending folks.


Not offended in the least. The point of discussion boards is to discuss. If everyone agrees it's not much of a discussion.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:52 pm 
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I for one think Rob showed some of his genius in what he did with the tactics broker. New and inventive ways to screw with top squads.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:32 pm 
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I'm not offended by your posts. My thing with them is I'm just tired of seeing what is essentially the same post over and over. Some new piece is put up as the end all be all example that the game is going to be completely broken once this piece is released. People point out that the pieces put up as the game breakers in previous sets did not in fact break the game. They may have had a good strong start right after the set's release, but once people figured out how to play against them things settled down.

Taking a wait and see attitude is exactly that. Its not a rabid show of support for WOTC or Rob, its just wanting to wait and see if the previous history of break the game pieces not actually breaking the game continues with the ones in the set. After all the pieces are already made and set to go. No amount of handwringing over them is going to stop them from coming out. Since nothing any of us can do will change that what else is there to do except wait and see?

Final thing I'll add is when you're making it a choice between your view and the wait and see side you seem to be equating the wait and see option as there's absolutely nothing to worry about. I don't even go that far. I think its entirely possible a new piece (whether one we've seen already or not) could completely break the game, I'm just willing to go on past history and not get too upset over a new piece until one of them actually does break the game.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:43 pm 
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DarthMoose74 wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More bad news. I took the DPCI number down to the Bellevue Nebraska Target just now and it shows that they will be getting it on DECEMBER 2nd!

They did say that if it is an exclusive it could come in any time before then also.


Has anyone stateside been able to walk into this store and buy the HBP?
My 2 locals didn't have it and this quote here seems to indicate that the original Nov date (whatever that was) is not going to be met.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:54 pm 
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I checked the website and there isn't anything under the search criteria of Star Wars Hoth on Target.com. I want one bad but I only need Veers and BS1.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:10 pm 
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bump *sort of*

I still want this freakin thing my local store was stocked on Wed. Anybody else?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:02 am 
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I managed to pick one of these up yesterday at a shop here in London. £35, same price as if I had ordered online, so I just went ahead and got it. Of course, I only bought it for 2 new minis and some round bases... but I'm happy enough :)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:36 am 
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Picked up the Hoth set today from my LGS for the same £35.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:38 am 
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I found a few on E-bay
Check the link below
http://search.stores.ebay.com/battle-of-hoth_W0QQ_trksidZm37QQcatrefZC5QQfclZ3QQflocZ1QQfromZR6QQfrppZ50QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ2QQfssZ0QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsaaffZafdefaultQQsabfmtsZ0QQsacatZQ2d1QQsacurZ0QQsaobfmtsZexsifQQsaslcZ2QQsaslopZ1QQsbrexpZWD1SQQsbrhrlinkZstrQQsbrsrtZdQQsifZ1QQsofpZ4

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:56 am 
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Hay Bail did you pick up mine? :D

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:15 am 
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Still no sign of it here in southwestern OH. I've checked a couple local targets a couple of times each. They don't even have a space set aside for it yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:52 am 
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New guy on the Wizards board said it was due out here on the 26th.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:57 pm 
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What new guy? New Wizo? Or just a new forum member? A brand new forum member doesn't impress me much unless he has some proof to back that up. The 26th was one of the original dates that was tossed around a while back, so he could've pulled that idea from anywhere.

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