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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:12 pm 
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obsidian7788 wrote:
violence against violence is never the answer and often undermines the purpose of those who commit it. Well with that said its funny that sadam got a trial.


I hear ya with the violence on violence. That is something I struggle with as a Christian and former solider.

Well as far as Saddam Hussein is concerned, what he did was contained to a relatively small area. Which I saw first hand in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq during Desert Storm. It wasn't hard to figure out where the trial would take place and what the outcome would be.

Osama Bin Laden on the other hand, had his hands in attacks all over the world. Countries and Politicians would have argued endlessly over where, when, and how his trial would take place. In my opinion, it probably would have gone on for a decade at least. And wasted money that could have been better spent finding and bringing the rest of his kind to justice. That's just my opinion though.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:13 pm 
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GeneralGrievous wrote:
SquelchDog wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Its not a day to celebrate as the death of any person shouldn't be celebrated like a party, but a day to remember none the less.

I would have to agree with you there Bill. Honestly my first reaction was sadness. A man was killed yesterday. However, as former member of the US Army, and a New Yorker. I believe Osama Bin Laden got exactly what he deserved. And according to his religious beliefs his body was laid to rest. As a Christian, that last part was important to me. He now stands before God and will be judged for his actions on Earth. For me, this is a closed chapter of the book on the war against terrorism. Unfortunately, there are still many chapters to go. Hopefully they won't all end like this one did, with the death of a man.


Well said SquelchDog, I second your comment. Or in true mini fashion +1


Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 5:39 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Its not a day to celebrate as the death of any person shouldn't be celebrated like a party, but a day to remember none the less.


I do very much agree with his. I also was sort of sad when I heard it. He needed to die, deserved to die. And that is a sad situation. I do honestly find much of thecelebrations going on somwhat discomforting. Glad sombody else is thinking the same way.

obsidian7788 wrote:
violence against violence is never the answer and often undermines the purpose of those who commit it. Well with that said its funny that sadam got a trial.


I think violence against violence. Is a perfectly fine answer. Sombody once said somthing along the lines of "I think the only just war is a defensive war which therefore is worthy in the eyes of god."

I don't believe in god but I understand his meaning and fully agree. Evil doesn't just stop and appologize. It needs to be defeated, through violence more often than not. When good folks do nothing evil rules all (another quote from somwhere). Even if it requires something as regrettable as ending a life.

That is of course simply my opinion. Yours is of course every bit as valid. I just wanted to throw out an alternate view.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:43 am 
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."--Edmund Burke

And yes, I do agree that sometimes in this backward world the only way to combat evil is with violence. But it's the mindset which accompanies that violence, which determines whether or not that combatting of evil is itself another form of evil. Are we saying "Die, sucka!" or "Thankfully his string of terrorism has finally been brought to an end"?

Here's another quote, which I think serves as a helpful interpretive tool for Burke's quote:

“As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.”--Rev. Nathan Baxter, September 11, 2001

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:29 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."--Edmund Burke

And yes, I do agree that sometimes in this backward world the only way to combat evil is with violence. But it's the mindset which accompanies that violence, which determines whether or not that combatting of evil is itself another form of evil. Are we saying "Die, sucka!" or "Thankfully his string of terrorism has finally been brought to an end"?

Here's another quote, which I think serves as a helpful interpretive tool for Burke's quote:

“As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.”--Rev. Nathan Baxter, September 11, 2001


Well said thereisnotry. That last quote hit's the nail on the head.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:42 am 
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SquelchDog wrote:
And according to his religious beliefs his body was laid to rest. As a Christian, that last part was important to me.


Not quite true. "Burial at sea" is not something which is done in Islam, and there will be people unhappy with this.

Agree with what billiv15 said, this is not a time for celebration. Seeing drunk kids on TV partying because of this seemed exceptionally wrong, and that is the kind of imagery that is only going to fuel further resentment. The world is better off without him, but it's really just a symbolic effort at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:51 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."--Edmund Burke

And yes, I do agree that sometimes in this backward world the only way to combat evil is with violence. But it's the mindset which accompanies that violence, which determines whether or not that combatting of evil is itself another form of evil. Are we saying "Die, sucka!" or "Thankfully his string of terrorism has finally been brought to an end"?

Here's another quote, which I think serves as a helpful interpretive tool for Burke's quote:

“As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.”--Rev. Nathan Baxter, September 11, 2001


+1. Sums up my feelings on this very well.

Wedge772 wrote:
Not quite true. "Burial at sea" is not something which is done in Islam, and there will be people unhappy with this.

I don't recall where I heard it now, but someone postulated that this was done so there would not be a place that could become a "shrine" to him amongst his followers.


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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:51 am 
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Wedge772 wrote:
SquelchDog wrote:
And according to his religious beliefs his body was laid to rest. As a Christian, that last part was important to me.


Not quite true. "Burial at sea" is not something which is done in Islam, and there will be people unhappy with this.

Agree with what billiv15 said, this is not a time for celebration. Seeing drunk kids on TV partying because of this seemed exceptionally wrong, and that is the kind of imagery that is only going to fuel further resentment. The world is better off without him, but it's really just a symbolic effort at this point.


All good point, but I will clarify the burial issue a bit. It is "permissible" in Islam to bury at sea, typically when the person is traveling. They did it right in terms of the normal procedures for traveling. The sticky issue is whether or not he qualified. They made a pragmatic choice here, in that the difficulty of finding someone willing to accept the body would compound the highest priority of Islamic burial - a speedy burial. You are supposed to bury the dead before sundown. I don't see how they could have accomplished both things. I'm sure some will criticize, because they will do so regardless. But Islamic burials aren't something that has an extremely proscribed law, much like Christian burials. Heck, they could have landed on some random Island, and buried him in the ground with his head pointed towards Mecca and that would have satisfied all requirements as well. Islamic burials follow local custom as much as Christian burials in today's world. Traditionalists will complain, but this wasn't at all out of line with Islamic tradition either. I really doubt they worried about the shrine being created over his body as a real threat as I've seen people claiming. For one, anyone going to his shrine would be watched under surveillance. Second, shrines in Islam do not require bodies. The primary issue was trying to do the best they could in a timely fashion. I think the Navy did it right, and I'd be the first to criticize if they didn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:17 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Wedge772 wrote:
SquelchDog wrote:
And according to his religious beliefs his body was laid to rest. As a Christian, that last part was important to me.


Not quite true. "Burial at sea" is not something which is done in Islam, and there will be people unhappy with this.

Agree with what billiv15 said, this is not a time for celebration. Seeing drunk kids on TV partying because of this seemed exceptionally wrong, and that is the kind of imagery that is only going to fuel further resentment. The world is better off without him, but it's really just a symbolic effort at this point.


All good point, but I will clarify the burial issue a bit. It is "permissible" in Islam to bury at sea, typically when the person is traveling. They did it right in terms of the normal procedures for traveling. The sticky issue is whether or not he qualified. They made a pragmatic choice here, in that the difficulty of finding someone willing to accept the body would compound the highest priority of Islamic burial - a speedy burial. You are supposed to bury the dead before sundown. I don't see how they could have accomplished both things. I'm sure some will criticize, because they will do so regardless. But Islamic burials aren't something that has an extremely proscribed law, much like Christian burials. Heck, they could have landed on some random Island, and buried him in the ground with his head pointed towards Mecca and that would have satisfied all requirements as well. Islamic burials follow local custom as much as Christian burials in today's world. Traditionalists will complain, but this wasn't at all out of line with Islamic tradition either. I really doubt they worried about the shrine being created over his body as a real threat as I've seen people claiming. For one, anyone going to his shrine would be watched under surveillance. Second, shrines in Islam do not require bodies. The primary issue was trying to do the best they could in a timely fashion. I think the Navy did it right, and I'd be the first to criticize if they didn't.


Thanks for the clarification Bill, you are correct. Unfortunately we had to do this all too often when I was over there.

Wedge772 wrote:
Seeing drunk kids on TV partying because of this seemed exceptionally wrong, and that is the kind of imagery that is only going to fuel further resentment.


That was extremely disturbing seeing that on television.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:08 pm 
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I am happy he is dead, and I make no apologies for saying so. He needed to die. I make a distinction between 'needed' and 'deserved'. Deserved would be defined by the past, needed by the future. I believe God alone is able to judge who deserves death, so I will not presume to say he deserved death. I believe he needed to die to prevent future terroristic attacks and deaths of innocents. I know he had little affect on current terroristic activities...because our pursuit had pretty much isolated him. However, his eluding capture for years has provided inspiration to like minded individuals intent on wreaking havoc for whatever cause they think they're fighting for. He has never responded to negotiations or talk of peace or any sort of peaceful resolution to issues. He was going to continue to provide inspiration to followers around the world, so he needed to die.

This won't stop terrorism. As long as there are individuals willing to trade their lives for the lives of innocents, it will continue. But if one life was saved because a would-be terrorist not willing to die for his cause saw the way he died and lost his nerve, it was worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:27 am 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
But if one life was saved because a would-be terrorist not willing to die for his cause saw the way he died and lost his nerve, it was worth it.


Well said Jim.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Why did NBC interrupted the last fifteen minutes of celberty apprentice when the Obamba did not come on till eleven thirty?

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Perhaps I am a pessimist. A series of plane hijackings resulted in a policy of compliance and they will release you eventually. Bombing in the lower levels of the WTC. Taking advantage of a weakened WTC and compliant personnel in order to conduct the event of 9/11. Now this fanatic group has eluded the US for 9.5 years and wound up in a compound vice a more reclusive cave. This group has conducted a pattern of long term planning. I would caution this may be set up by Osama in order to trigger the countdown to a larger simultaneous attack which will come with such suddenness, the world will not be able to respond. The attacks will be vicious, horrific and visible.

I hope I am mistaken but I recall Sun Tzu's “Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.” Remember Viet Nam and the TET offensive. The VC started to reduce their attacks as they geared up for the TET holiday. The simultaneous attacks were sudden and the acts carried out by the VC on the populace were horrific. The counteroffensive quickly disrupted communication lines and most of the VC forces were quickly captured or killed. The goal wasn't to hold ground but to be visible and destroy the morale of the citizens.

I am not sad he is gone. Reports I have heard was his body was disposed of from CVN-70, which I served aboard for 5.5 years. My duty for the past 3 years has been to push the west coast SSGNs through 4 maintenance periods so they can be forward deployed with Navy SEALs. The military is in a heightened state of readiness and intel specialists & analysts remain hard at work. Great work to all involved but now its time to continue with our resolve.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:52 pm 
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nuksaa wrote:
Perhaps I am a pessimist. A series of plane hijackings resulted in a policy of compliance and they will release you eventually. Bombing in the lower levels of the WTC. Taking advantage of a weakened WTC and compliant personnel in order to conduct the event of 9/11. Now this fanatic group has eluded the US for 9.5 years and wound up in a compound vice a more reclusive cave. This group has conducted a pattern of long term planning. I would caution this may be set up by Osama in order to trigger the countdown to a larger simultaneous attack which will come with such suddenness, the world will not be able to respond. The attacks will be vicious, horrific and visible.


The scary part is, you are probably right...


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:46 pm 
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keith wrote:
nuksaa wrote:
Perhaps I am a pessimist. A series of plane hijackings resulted in a policy of compliance and they will release you eventually. Bombing in the lower levels of the WTC. Taking advantage of a weakened WTC and compliant personnel in order to conduct the event of 9/11. Now this fanatic group has eluded the US for 9.5 years and wound up in a compound vice a more reclusive cave. This group has conducted a pattern of long term planning. I would caution this may be set up by Osama in order to trigger the countdown to a larger simultaneous attack which will come with such suddenness, the world will not be able to respond. The attacks will be vicious, horrific and visible.


The scary part is, you are probably right...


1. The real world is not an episode of '24'.

2. By being afraid, you give more power to terrorists. Despite what it may mean down the road, we cant sit on our hands now, and hope they stop, cause they wont. We have to be like the passengers on the flight on 9/11 that took out the hijackers and crashed the plane in the field before it hit its target. Take them down before they can cause more chaos, destruction, and death.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:36 pm 
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Disturbed1 wrote:
keith wrote:
nuksaa wrote:
Perhaps I am a pessimist. A series of plane hijackings resulted in a policy of compliance and they will release you eventually. Bombing in the lower levels of the WTC. Taking advantage of a weakened WTC and compliant personnel in order to conduct the event of 9/11. Now this fanatic group has eluded the US for 9.5 years and wound up in a compound vice a more reclusive cave. This group has conducted a pattern of long term planning. I would caution this may be set up by Osama in order to trigger the countdown to a larger simultaneous attack which will come with such suddenness, the world will not be able to respond. The attacks will be vicious, horrific and visible.


The scary part is, you are probably right...


1. The real world is not an episode of '24'.

2. By being afraid, you give more power to terrorists. Despite what it may mean down the road, we cant sit on our hands now, and hope they stop, cause they wont. We have to be like the passengers on the flight on 9/11 that took out the hijackers and crashed the plane in the field before it hit its target. Take them down before they can cause more chaos, destruction, and death.


1) I don't watch much TV. I think most of it is garbage aside from a few diamonds in the rough.

2) You are preaching to the choir buddy! :D I would be a fool to underestimate the enemies of my country and freedom, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:47 pm 
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Disturbed1 wrote:

1. The real world is not an episode of '24'.

2. By being afraid, you give more power to terrorists. Despite what it may mean down the road, we cant sit on our hands now, and hope they stop, cause they wont. We have to be like the passengers on the flight on 9/11 that took out the hijackers and crashed the plane in the field before it hit its target. Take them down before they can cause more chaos, destruction, and death.


Agree the real world is not an episode of 24 but to ignore the past and not learning from it is to be obtuse. Before 9/11, hijacking 2 planes and running them into a building seemed fairly improbable. The facts I presented are to caution not intended to inspire fear; but to inspire continued vigilance and resolve represented in the pursuit of one Bin Laden.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:41 am 
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this has nothing to do with SWM. I've moved it to off topic land.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:57 am 
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I wasnt meaning we shouldnt learn anything from the past. I was meaning we shouldnt wind up with a "Now that weve killed Osama, theyre gonna attack us again. Better cancel that trip to the city. In fact, lets just stay inside ALL THE TIME, cause its safer in here." and that kind of mentality, which I think is what they (al quaida) is trying to get across.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama Bin Laden has been killed
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 7:54 pm 
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I was meaning we shouldnt wind up with a "Now that weve killed Osama, theyre gonna attack us again. Better cancel that trip to the city


Absolutely agree. At the same time we must temper any exburance. The truth is they will likely attack us again regardless of Osama's pulse.

Frankly, I am of the mindset: "Osama is dead, good. Now I am off to pinch a loaf." Just because he is gone doesn't necessarily equal a change to our vigilance towards future threats.

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