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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:40 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Sithborg wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
I think at this point I'm going to agree to disagree with you all. This is not even my own personal fight seeing I'm really not all that involved in the actual incident of what happened. There is no point fighting and risking what I feel like is the good relationships that I think I have with many of the posters of this thread.


Oh c'mon. Everyone needs a good online fight with Boris at least once in their SWM gaming career.



I've had at least that many

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:41 pm 
Master of the Order
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audrisampson wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
I think at this point I'm going to agree to disagree with you all. This is not even my own personal fight seeing I'm really not all that involved in the actual incident of what happened. There is no point fighting and risking what I feel like is the good relationships that I think I have with many of the posters of this thread.


Oh c'mon. Everyone needs a good online fight with Boris at least once in their SWM gaming career.


LOL we have had our share over at the WOTC boards


I don't recall that. Were you using a different username then?

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The only reason I argued against what they were saying was because I didn't want to see Tim crucified here for doing something that I feel is legal according to the floor rules that were in place on Saturday.


This is how Tim has always managed to justify his actions in tournaments, regardless of the "spirit" of the game others among us felt was being violated. Anything is legal within the letter of the law, but that doesn't make it acceptable. And when something unacceptable is not illegal, often the laws and rules have to be changed to address that. We wouldn't need a rule for it if there wasn't someone looking to see how frequently he can bend without breaking it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:42 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
I think at this point I'm going to agree to disagree with you all. This is not even my own personal fight seeing I'm really not all that involved in the actual incident of what happened. There is no point fighting and risking what I feel like is the good relationships that I think I have with many of the posters of this thread.


Oh c'mon. Everyone needs a good online fight with Boris at least once in their SWM gaming career.



I've had at least that many


Once you realized that I am right more often than I am wrong, things were fine. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:

I don't recall that. Were you using a different username then?


Same one as here, think 2008ish. I think our biggest one was the GOWK/Seresu issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:45 pm 
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I actually agree with Audri. You can like it or not like it, that's fine. But declaring it unsportsmanlike conduct is abuse of judging.

Just like we can't ever make someone play out a match up they don't want to play (as in early concession), regardless of the circumstances or their ability to win, we also cannot ever force someone to win a game they could have. As long as there was no bribe, there is nothing wrong with it, nor can there ever be.

If you try to add this to the floor rules I will veto it. There is no line that can be fairly enforced on this. Bad taste aside, it's well within a players right to do what is best for themselves in a tournament.

And for those that claimed this never happens in sports..... Uh yes it does, all the friggen time.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:51 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
If you try to add this to the floor rules I will veto it. There is no line that can be fairly enforced on this. Bad taste aside, it's well within a players right to do what is best for themselves in a tournament.


Veto it? You mean, like when the president vetoes a bill Congress passed? Reality check time. We're a committee, and you have one vote just like the rest of us. Not sure what "vetoing" would accomplish. At least you are willing to admit the action was in "bad taste." I have to wonder if you would take this stance if we weren't talking about a situation involving Tim Ballard.

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And for those that claimed this never happens in sports..... Uh yes it does, all the friggen time.


Who claimed that? I must have missed that part. And what does sports have to do with this?

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:03 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:

Veto it? You mean, like when the president vetoes a bill Congress passed? Reality check time. We're a committee, and you have one vote just like the rest of us. Not sure what "vetoing" would accomplish. At least you are willing to admit the action was in "bad taste." I have to wonder if you would take this stance if we weren't talking about a situation involving Tim Ballard.[/quote]

No I mean veto as in voice my dissent and vote my vote against such a thing.

I've consistently been against any rule attempting to legislate when and where a player can choose to win/lose. It's impossible to enforce in any fair way at all, and honestly, it's against the "spirit" of the rules to even try. You can't dq someone for making what amounts to a game losing play. Whether you believe they did it on purpose or not. Nor should the judge ever have the power to even begin to try to decide. Remember the slow play vs stalling arguments? You never wanted slow play called because you assumed you had to prove intend. So we defined them differently, with only one using intent. Consequently, slow play is called often, I've never heard of anyone called for stalling.

If we go back to the rule of adding the 30 minute requirement for a concession, you will recall that I was generally opposed to any such idea. I conceded the point to the community, and I think it's a fine enough rule. And this one is similarly related, although more atrocious. We cannot ever tell someone they have to win or even play to win. If they play to lose, that's their choice, and we cannot make a rule against it. I suppose you could try, and all you do is make a player simply not say a word about it. In the end you've accomplished nothing, but create an unnecessary arbitrary rule that could easily be abused by a judge. Now I trust our judges, but come on.

Sorry Trevor, you are dqed from the 2008 National Championship because you didn't move Boba away for evade. Clearly you were trying to hand Bill the match. No prizes for you and Matt Peterson is awarded second place.... My example may seem ridiculous, but it should be clear that there is no line.

And further, would you object if Tim had simply said, "you know what, I'm hungry, I'm in top 4 already, I concede my final match and am going to get something to eat". Unless you are prepared to legislate the validity of all concessions every tournament, and dictate to players which kind is legal and which is not, this cannot be done.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:06 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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billiv15 wrote:

If you try to add this to the floor rules I will veto it. There is no line that can be fairly enforced on this. Bad taste aside


Isn't bad taste kind of the defining characteristic of unsportsmanlike. You're probably right that it can't easily be enforced, but nothing ever is.

I find your "veto" absurdly laughable. I try to do what seems to be in the community's best interest, sorry if that's not yours in this case.

So far of the community members I know who have mentioned this I see 3 against it (assuming Tim by default) and 7 or 8 for it. Assuming that's a fair sampling of the community, I think you can see where my lines have to be drawn.

The word abuse can be thrown around anytime you have a player who also enforces the rules, but I'm not going to stop playing just so everything can appear "fair".

In the end, you might be right, but you approached it all wrong. Given the last few heavy posts on tournament guidelines and conduct, there seems to be a need/desire (depending on your viewpoint) of a set of guidelines more carefully outlining tournament conduct.

Unfortunately, that is going to be a tremendous undertaking and nightmare. One that, currently, I don't feel its benefit is worth the cost.

We've had similar discussions regarding definitions of stalling, slow play etc and decided there were too many avenues to effectively cover, but we found alternate ways to discourage the major problems of those things. The same is true for unsportsmanlike conduct, far too wide of an umbrella, but we have no way of indirectly addressing such issues.


I could go on, but I am just flat out tired of talking about this right now and I am sure that is affecting anything I say or think at this time.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Again, "veto" was a bad choice of word. I was typing quickly. I simply meant I would be heavily against it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:10 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:

And further, would you object if Tim had simply said, "you know what, I'm hungry, I'm in top 4 already, I concede my final match and am going to get something to eat". Unless you are prepared to legislate the validity of all concessions every tournament, and dictate to players which kind is legal and which is not, this cannot be done.



This I agree with, and has been in the back of my mind all day, but could not find the words. Either we give the judges options for abuse or we give the players optiosn for abuse. I'd vote judges, but it'll never be in such a way as to not grant it to the players as well.

In the given situation, this would have given Wes a 3 point win, which Tim was trying to avoid, but that's a very small window....

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:16 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
And further, would you object if Tim had simply said, "you know what, I'm hungry, I'm in top 4 already, I concede my final match and am going to get something to eat". Unless you are prepared to legislate the validity of all concessions every tournament, and dictate to players which kind is legal and which is not, this cannot be done.


You are correct that by creating this ruling it will just make people intent on manipulation stay quiet about what they are doing and why. It will be up to the other players and the judge to monitor what is happening to determine if something inappropriate is occurring.

I quoted this section specifically because I have answers for you. Would I object if Tim had simply conceded to go get something to eat? Nope, provided he did in fact go and get something to eat. His opponent would have collected the three point win and that would have been that. But that's not what happened. Tim, according to his opponent's report, drug the game out, avoided Gambit as much as possible and forced a 2 pt. win.

We're not talking about a single game play where a mistake like forgetting to move Boba back might have been made. Over the course of a full hour, Tim apparently - again, until he speaks up and says what he did and why, this is all (believable) conjecture - made intentionally bad play decisions so that his opponent would win the game, because he believed it would be to his benefit in the long run.

Would I rather we didn't have to validate concession/game results? Sure. But as long as we have players like Tim around, we are not allowed that luxury. As Brad said, 1 bad apple... etc.

I don't think it is as hard as you make it out to be to know when a player is trying to manipulate the scoring system. A player who wins round after round suddenly stops engaging and makes multiple apparent bad plays that cost him key figures, all the while circling away from Gambit when he's been aggressively camping in the center up to that point? A game involving said player drags out to time when all of his other games are done well before the half-hour mark? It's not rocket science to figure out what's happening and why.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:18 pm 
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The Star Wars CCG has a rule specifically about collusion. It falls into the category of things that are very hard to prove and could definitely be abused by a judge (who's to say that the players are colluding as opposed to one of the players just playing really, really poorly?). Does anyone play that regularly in tournament play still? I know that Bill and others played it in the past, but I don't know if they still do or how long it's been since they have. I know of the rule because two of the regular minis players here (Graham and Phillip) still play in CCG tournaments at least once per month. I'd like to know how that rule was dealt with in that community. Do they have issues with judges abusing it? What was the thought process into making it? What exactly were the kinds of issues that caused it to be made?

I dunno if anyone has experience with that, but it certainly seems like what we're talking about here. It would be nice if someone involved in that community could shed a little insight into their dealings with it, since they've been in the same boat as us (a self-regulating players committee) for many years now.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Here's the thing that worries me most though:

Had I been at that event (granted I would have been playing, but let's say I was judging--which is not uncommon) my gut reaction would have been to DQ Tim, since I never play and judge the likelihood of catching this would have been greater. This thread would then have a very different tone.

So....where's my protection for doing what I think is best as a judge? Tim is clearly protected so far for doing what he thought was best as a player competitor...

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:24 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
So....where's my protection for doing what I think is best as a judge? Tim is clearly protected so far for doing what he thought was best as a player competitor...


If the rule addition you had posted on the last page was a part of the current floor rules on Saturday, I don't think anyone here would criticize you if you were to DQ based on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:26 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
So....where's my protection for doing what I think is best as a judge? Tim is clearly protected so far for doing what he thought was best as a player competitor...


If the rule addition you had posted on the last page was a part of the current floor rules on Saturday, I don't think anyone here would criticize you if you were to DQ based on it.



Ah, but I am referring to the absence or vagueness of rulings. If Tim is protected by vagueness as a competitor, would I be equally protected as a judge?

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:30 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
So....where's my protection for doing what I think is best as a judge? Tim is clearly protected so far for doing what he thought was best as a player competitor...


If the rule addition you had posted on the last page was a part of the current floor rules on Saturday, I don't think anyone here would criticize you if you were to DQ based on it.



Ah, but I am referring to the absence or vagueness of rulings. If Tim is protected by vagueness as a competitor, would I be equally protected as a judge?


I believe the answer to this question is yes. I guess it depends on what you are looking for protection to cover. If we are talking about your right to DQ a player for unsportsmanlike conduct, then yep you would have that. If we are talking about being protected from criticism on the internet for that decision, well probably not. But even if there was a specific ruling you still wouldn't have that protection. Because it's the internet.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:30 pm 
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Again, we only know it was intentional because you were told so. I could easily pull this off if I desired without ever letting you know I'm doing it. I really really, don't see why we think we can legislate this. It's impossible to cover it fairly. We discussed it in the concession issue. In the end, we simply decided that a judge can determine from the 30+ minutes of play on what is a realistic 3pt concession. I'm not 100% sold on that, but I accept it. But in this case, you are expected, nay requiring that the judge make such a call with little to no evidence.

Let's go back to my example of Tim saying he was hungry. Judge says ok, that's legit. Tim gets talking, forgets to leave, judge says your dqed for lying.... You can't see how this is impossible?

And further, I'm really not sure why we are so opposed to it. The goal of a tournament is to win. If messing with the standings helps you win, I'm really not comfortable with saying it's overtly wrong. It happens all the time in sports. Last game of the year, a team in first is playing the team in 8th, can knock them out with a win, or ensure them as their 1st round match with a loss. They bench all their starters for the game. They use "resting our stars" as the PR move, rather than admit what really happened.

No one would ever advocated dqing the 1st place team for this, even if they flat out admitted what they were doing. If someone has already earned their spot in the finals, they are well within their rights to win, lose, draw, etc their final game. Just like they are free to do so for any other reason throughout the event. We cannot legislate which version is valid and which is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:32 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Here's the thing that worries me most though:

Had I been at that event (granted I would have been playing, but let's say I was judging--which is not uncommon) my gut reaction would have been to DQ Tim, since I never play and judge the likelihood of catching this would have been greater. This thread would then have a very different tone.

So....where's my protection for doing what I think is best as a judge? Tim is clearly protected so far for doing what he thought was best as a player competitor...


I'd simply have told you I disagree with the decision (in private) but support your right as the judge to make the best decision for the event. As I have typically done in the past with such things.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:33 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
So....where's my protection for doing what I think is best as a judge? Tim is clearly protected so far for doing what he thought was best as a player competitor...


If the rule addition you had posted on the last page was a part of the current floor rules on Saturday, I don't think anyone here would criticize you if you were to DQ based on it.



Ah, but I am referring to the absence or vagueness of rulings. If Tim is protected by vagueness as a competitor, would I be equally protected as a judge?


For a judge a DQ is by far the strongest penalty you can give. If we could compare it to anything in actual legal system it would have to be the Death Sentence. Now please don't think that I'm saying anything that goes on in our tournaments even compares to life or death but you are effectively ending that persons day at the event. The money that player spent on expenses getting to the event is gone including any time off of work or other such things. For a penalty that harsh I don't think we can use vagueness as a guideline for a reason for such a penalty.

Also for a judge you are the absolute authority of the event. Like they say with much power comes great responsibilty and you as a judge are entrusted to fufill that duty as best as possible. Now because of all this a judge will always be graded harsher then a player.

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 Post subject: Re: Kokomo / Lafayette, IN Regional June 1st and 2nd
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Echo wrote:
The Star Wars CCG has a rule specifically about collusion. It falls into the category of things that are very hard to prove and could definitely be abused by a judge (who's to say that the players are colluding as opposed to one of the players just playing really, really poorly?). Does anyone play that regularly in tournament play still? I know that Bill and others played it in the past, but I don't know if they still do or how long it's been since they have. I know of the rule because two of the regular minis players here (Graham and Phillip) still play in CCG tournaments at least once per month. I'd like to know how that rule was dealt with in that community. Do they have issues with judges abusing it? What was the thought process into making it? What exactly were the kinds of issues that caused it to be made?

I dunno if anyone has experience with that, but it certainly seems like what we're talking about here. It would be nice if someone involved in that community could shed a little insight into their dealings with it, since they've been in the same boat as us (a self-regulating players committee) for many years now.


There seems to be quite a few stories. I remember that there were a lot of accusations about cheating or collusion (ie splitting prizes if someone gave up). We are talking about a game where actively "forgetting" a card that was constantly active, in the hopes the opponent also "forgot", was used a lot by one deck type.

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