Did he forget he was hungry? Did the judge not clarify to him, That's fine, but you MUST go and eat? How much time elapsed in your hypothetical?

Regardless, you're not comparing apples to apples. Tim didn't just want to concede. He wanted to lose to time, so that his opponent suffered a penalty and he could put a player he wasn't facing out of the final 4. Even if everything else you say is correct, it still comes down to the fact he stalled out the game to manipulate the entire tournament. He should have been DQ'd. Frankly, if his opponent realized what was happening and why and said nothing because he knew winning put him in the top 4, then he should have been DQ'd too. IMO

I'm opposed to this sort of behavior because its unsportsmanlike. Clearly I'm not the only one who feels this way. If it were simply a matter of saying to guys like Tim, "Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something," that would be great. But guys like Tim lack ethics when it comes to playing a GAME. And so this is our only recourse.

Wrong. Not sharing your ethics does not = lack ethics. The ethics of winning are a legitimate aspect of what should count as "ethics".

Winning a tournament always allows doing whatever is within the rules to win. You can like or dislike it, that's always part of the deal. You don't get to say someone is without ethics because you don't like it... With that, I'm seriously done discussing it because that was over the top personal attack and has nothing to do with tournaments.

I will finish reading the posts in a sec, just got home from work, but seeing that I finished 5th I am curious if Tim thought he would have a better matchup against Wes's squad and a harder time against my O/R squad that could cancel his CE's. Again, if it skirts the rules but stays in not sure how to address it except with future rules changes.

Then you have to give me a warning as well. In my last match against Mike, I had 2 brutes, a sparti, mas, and panaka. I ran my brutes right by his battlemaster so that he could kill me with an AoO. I purposely stopped playing to win and allow him a 3pnt win so that he might get into the top 4.

With the direction I see the game moving into, I might just stop playing competitively. We're headed for cut throat, no one is my friend type environment.

Also clearly stated by me in epic duo tourny, we skipped last round of play and me and the other guy tied for second decided to roll for 2nd place. I won that roll but that was also not legal so Les where do you want me to send the Luke Skywalker ornament I won for that cause I don't deserve it.

This does happan in sports all the time, I can name a few but that's not the point.

This does happan in SWM as well and has been the case for years, I've seen it numerous times by numerous players, and honestly I think that the only reason Boris is getting so worked up now is because it involves Tim. It's no secret that Boris thinks Tim is unsportsmanlike but what if this wasn't Tim? What if this was someoneone else? What if this was me? Would it still be getting this much attention and would Boris be so outspoken against it?

I thought this was a community that everyone was supposed to be involved in what takes place to make this game live forever. Well you can add me to the side of Tim, Audri, Bill, and whoever else. I don't know when this voting will take place but my Vote (if I even get one) is no.

Which is what we're trying to avoid from antics like this, so not sure where you're going with the rest of your post since it seems in contradiction.

Also, I demand to be declared the most outspoken on this as I brought it up, I've made the most posts!!!!!

Just because I'm not Dennis????

Intent is a really big part of it, though. If you intentionally play poorly to help your opponent, you're being magnanimous. If you're doing it to make your top 4 easier or help out a player in another game or something like that, you're somewhere on the spectrum of "cut throat" and "unsportsmanlike", depending on your point of view (as this thread has made obvious).

I'm not saying that the judge should make calls on intent, I'm just clarifying that there is a difference in these situations. It's also different if you're just letting your opponent get the last couple kills to win after a hard fought game as opposed to actually throwing the game. Tim threw the game, you did not. What Tim did was cut throat, what you did was not. That's the difference.

Nothing at all is wrong with that, if it had been the case. In that situation, wouldn't that mean that Wes would get a 3 point win and not a 2 point win? From what I read from Wes' report, Tim's whole intention was to lose but only grant a 2 point win. Thus, he was manipulating the end results.

Daniel sums up my thoughts very well. You surrendered to help another play that you didn't believe you could beat. You didn't try to manipulate the outcome for yourself. There's a gray area here.

As for the rest, first of all let me address the question, "Would I have spoken up if it wasn't Tim?" Absolutely. This isn't the first time this sort of issue has come up, and Bill can attest to that (assuming he recalls the previous discussions, they were a long time ago). It's kind of funny to me that I am being accused of "leading the charge" when I was in fact the last one to speak up. I think it's just that people pay more attention to my username when I am involved in a controversial discussion (as Sithborg alluded to in jest). I'm confident that TCW is a lot more worked up about this than I am. I'm disappointed that we still have people looking to push the limitations on what is the spirit of the game - a big part of the reason for the 3/2 pt. wins was to compel people to play within the spirit of the game, and now it is being used to manipulate the system just as much. Regardless of who is doing it or how, or what the "official rules" are, the people involved in this discussion have been around long enough to know what the intent is.

@Bill: How is what I said a personal attack, exactly? Because I said there are players who lack ethics when playing a game? Because I believe Tim is an example of such people? If this were the only incident, I'd agree yeah that was over the top. But it's not. And he and I have had extensive conversations on the subject, and he made his opinion very clear. Ethics in games are irrelevant. What matters to him is maximizing advantages from the way the rules are set up. When those maximized advantages violate the spirit of the game - just as they did with slow play - then the rest of us who believe the spirit of the game is more important are forced to respond and readjust the rules, for the benefit of the entire community.

Seriously, who wants to go to an event where you know there will be a player keeping tabs on the outcome of every game so he/she can determine whether winning or losing in the next round is the right decision, and whether that game should go to time or not? While I agree that not sharing my ethics doesn't mean a lack of ethics, that's not the issue here. Tim's ethics - as he himself has told me - take a back seat to rules manipulation opportunities. The only thing that has ever changed over the years is what those opportunities are. It wasn't all that long ago he was on the "watch list" for slow play at major events. When slow play was dealt with, then it just became some other manipulative trick that he found a way to abuse.

I really hate that this is about Tim. I wish it had been someone else that did this so that we could address the issue fairly, and not get bogged down in accusations against specific people instead. But it is about Tim, and what his opponent said happened during their game. And so this is where we have to start. Not everyone will agree with whatever decision comes, but I think we all agree - as we have in the past - that protecting the spirit of the game is paramount to keeping the game alive. If people are going to threaten to stop playing simply because they object to a rule that is created with that purpose, then I have to ask: Do we really want people like that playing the game anyway? And what exactly is it that they are objecting to?

It's a pity this thread is being brought down. This was truly a fun regional. The idea of rewards for keeping track of what you do in you game was fantastic, even if it needed a little bit of work or clarification. (I was handing out saves for people to boost up their total, lol) It really does need to be tried out more, especially for smaller tournaments. I give big props for that idea. Too bad I lost my sheet during lunch.

Oh it's not just this thread or issue that I said I might stop playing competitively.

If intent is the issue, maybe I wanted mike to be in the top 4 more than anyone else besides me. If I would have just continued to play the game and try for a win Mike might have ended up with a 2pnt win and then not make the top 4 at all. Isn't it just as wrong to lose on purpose to allow a friend to move on instead of someone else. Either way you could say that I was also trying to manipulate the system to allow mike a spot in the final 4.

This thread is not the reason in the least that I think this is headed in a cut throat direction. Weather it be this thread and possible floor rules change, or people starting early or slow play (which for some reason I have a bad habit of not calling people on) or rules that contradict each other, or other rules that I and I know many others disagree with or just some peoples attitude and behavior at gen con (I was seriously ready to beat the "&+#^ out of an oppontent last year at gen con) I was furious and anyone who knows me well enough knows that is not normal for me. It's a combination of all these things. I was in no way saying that Boris was leading the charge, I was just curious as to if this had to do with Tim.

I have never been good with words or to explain myself clearly, I'm sorry if you thought I was being contradictory but I didn't see it that way.

I was just trying to vent some of my frustration and say that I was on Bills, Audris, and Tim's side.

I wanted to just stay out of it but some of the things I've read on here, I read as blatant personal atks on Tim and if it's wrong or not I felt I needed to defend a freiend against such atks that have nothing to do with a game.

I don't think anyone's intent was to make any personal attack's at Tim. Hell, we could go and edit this whole page with just "Person 1" "Person 2" and "Person 3" etc and none of the discussion would change.

This. While it's commendable to want to defend a friend, it's only fair to pose your own question back at you: would you have taken sides - let alone the side you choose - on the issue if it was NOT involving Tim? I think that's the key difference. You read your own emotions into the comments being made. No one said anything disparaging about Tim as a person that I can see in this thread. The comments were specifically related to the report of one of his games.

I have nothing against Tim as a person. He's one of the nicest guys in our community and I know he cares about the game. Before we became so divided over rules interpretations, he and I used to correspond regularly about different ideas. I even tried to help him get Tile Wars into the floor rules at one point, when WotC was still calling the shots.

And I still value his opinion on playtesting V-set figures.

Apologies on that. I will attest, breaks can be helpful.

Please reserve this thread for the Kokomo regional, and take discussions about the controversial game here:

viewtopic.php?f=221&t=15509

This sounds like a cool idea, reminds me of achievements and other kinds of rewards that have become more popular in video games recently.

Getting back on TOPIC...

A few weeks ago, Daniel threw out the idea of attending the Kokomo regional. The drive time fell just within our range (which is about 10 hours), and the competition looked pretty good, with the locals joined by groups traveling from Chicago, upstate New York, Danville, and Michigan. That was enough for me, and as it happened Bronson (of Jamesville, TN) got a day off of work and managed to put together some complicated logistics so we could meet him on the way there without having to detour too much. Well, that was the idea, at least – instead we ended up driving for something like two hours on Tennessee and Kentucky goat trail backroads, which offered picturesque views but lacked in the velocity department. We also hit a ridiculous traffic snarl trying to switch from I-65 to 465 because there is a huge construction project going on. But despite all that we managed to arrive just in time for the pre-regional Tile Wars tournament!

I brought Rebel Pilots:

--Tile Wars Pilots--
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
21 Jon "Dutch" Vander
95 Red Squadron Ace x5
18 Klatooinian Captain
16 Elite Rebel Commando
16 General Crix Madine
6 Green Squadron Pilot

In the first round I played eventual champion Bryan and his KAAN KILL YOU ALL squad. He forgot that Madine had disruptive, so he ran Revan in to swap for Kaan and promptly got him killed for nothing. Unfortunately that didn’t really matter, because he just ran Kaan past Dash to the middle of my tile, where Exar Kun’s angry ghost was already waiting. I didn’t even have anyone with Force points to get rid of the ghost, so all I could do was run two of my pilots away and start attacking Zannah. The next round he won initiative and promptly blew up Kaan; I managed to fail all 7 saves and lost Dash, my commanders, and three pilots, along with the rookie and a wounded ERC and Madine. That pretty much decided it, since the remaining aces couldn’t get enough damage through Zannah’s shenanigans to kill her. She eventually corrupted them both to death, along with herself, so that Sideogram and a mouse droid were left to survey the battlefield alone.

Second round, I played Gerry’s Naboo deathshot squad with like 15 Naboo soldiers in it. I basically used Madine to disrupt a few at a time and threw lots of grenades 30. The highlight of this game was getting to talk with Gerry between methodically killing one soldier at a time. It was a timed (30 minute win).

Third round, the true highlight of the whole weekend, I got to play Mike’s Mando squad with Cassius Fett. I read Fett’s card and didn’t think much of it. Whatever, Fire Support Mission sucks and is a sad joke. He’ll never even use that! Why waste a good attacker on that nonsense? Except then he did it, and it was ugly. Three Red Squadron Aces died and Dash Rendar took 60. Out of six total pieces affected. Needing a save of 6. I may have reacted with profane incredulity. That pretty much sealed the game right there. I managed to make it sort of respectable by killing Cassius and a few other pieces, but he had a lot of scouts and they finished me off pretty easily. I guess the lesson is to respect fire support mission.

Fourth round I played Bronson’s Zannah squad. No Lord Kaan this time, but it didn’t matter. I missed a kill shot on the Huntress and Zannah took 30 total damage from, let’s see… about 20 total attacks. And that was only because Bronson forgot that he had Force Bubble. He just clownstomped me behind Zannah’s brick wall of unkillability.

And so I began our triumphant roadtrip by finishing dead last in Tile Wars, with two total points. Nowhere to go but up, I guess. Les was incredibly generous and put up not only our own Team Check Engine Light but also the New York crew, who somehow drove down all packed in a single Impala. We found out two things – that Les’s house was most of an hour away across tiny farm roads, and that Les likes to drive across said tiny farm roads at 90 mph. But it was well worth it, because Les’s place was amazing. He even had half a dozen cots laid out with sleeping bags for us. We pretty much passed out immediately, and the next morning Les made us coffee and took us to an awesome bakery with 50-cent doughnuts. I am eating one of their cookies right now and it is delicious. In case it wasn’t clear enough, Les is a wonderful person. He even offered to let us stay another night so we wouldn’t drive home on no sleep. Les was the all-star of our entire trip. He’s such a great guy that we didn’t even get jealous of his dedicated Star Wars room and massive mini conversion bench. Can’t say enough good things about him.

Coming back to minis, Daniel and I have been trying to dissect the meta for some time now and thought that we had come up with some novel and strong squads. He was playing Rebels again, but with bodyguard Chewbacca to provide enough staying power to keep Mace and OR from just stomping his weakass attackers into the ground. And I was playing:

--HK Firing Line--
39 HK-47, Assassin Droid
27 Lobot
20 General Whorm Loathsom
16 Geonosian Overseer
64 IG-86 Assassin Droid x4
12 Gha Nachkt
10 San Hill
8 Battle Droid Officer
4 Mouse Droid x2

It’s a small riff on the established Iggy swarm squad, since disruptive is such an incredibly strong ability to have right now and I figured that the +4 defense would help a lot against Storm Commandos. Cannon mirror matches wouldn’t be that easy, but the squad’s enormous firepower would give anything else as much trouble as it could handle. I chose Peaceful City as my map because Daniel took our only copy of Chancellor’s Starship; I just wanted something with big lines of sight and not very many doors.

First round was a rematch against Bryan, who went with Sith again by playing Revan, Zannah, Jaq, Lobot, and Exar FS. He brought in a Klatooinian Captain with Lobot to boost Jaq, while I just brought in a pile of mouse droids. We played on his map – Chancellor’s Starship. Unfortunately he didn’t really have an answer to my squad. Revan could win init, run in, and kill an IG-86, but then he couldn’t swap out and would just die. Instead he tried running Revan around and swapping with Jaq to take long shots on mouse droids, but their high defense made that not very effective. I shot down the Klat captain and Lobot from inside the gambit room, and when he eventually launched a combined attack with his big pieces, I just shot them to death. Zannah made plenty of saves, but 16 attacks for 30 damage was just too much to bear, especially when combined with a mouse wall that kept the Iggy-smalls safe. Full win.

Second round I played Randy, who had a new and very unpleasant-looking OR Echani squad. It was just Bastila, Atris, a Juggernaut War Droid, two R7s, and four Echani handmaidens. We ended up on my map and he spread the Echanis all over while keeping Atris and Bastila in a cubbyhole with an R7 for company. I brought in 10 mouse droids with the vague idea that there was no way he could kill them before I got to him. That turned out to be a remarkably poor assumption. I approached the central rooms and then tried to hide from his enfilading fire by tucking my squad underneath them, where gambit is, but he drew crazy lines of sight (you know, the ones that I CHOSE THAT MAP FOR) from all over and picked off my mouse droids ruthlessly with his +15 attack and twin. He blew up doors with the Juggernaut so there was no way to hide from him. For the first few turns, the only thing that went well for me was hitting one of his Echanis a few times and Randy failing some evade saves to cut the damage down a little. I kept my phalanx moving across the map with some notion of getting to his stupid room and killing Atris and Bastila, except I had kept on forgetting to move Lobot so he was a million miles away and had to get across the Echani death moonscape over three rounds. So I did what any sane person would do, ran him out anyway with the most important character in my squad, Whorm Loathsome, to block LOS. Meanwhile HK and his friends managed to run down a second Echani (though not before it took down an Iggy) and avenge their metal brothers. Unfortunately that meant there were still two more really far away with plenty of lines of sight to my guys. They gunned down San Hill, blocking mice, and the BDO (who took up blocking duty since I was running out of mice) while Lobot and Whorm scrambled to safety. For some godforsaken reason I decided to stop trying to kill his commanders (I think they were finally running out of Force points) and sent my army back to the middle chasing after the Echanis. The freaking Juggernaut War Droid managed to kill one of my Iggys, but the game shifted on a run of very one-sided luck. I moved last and based both of his Echanis with IG-86s, then won initiative. I had double from the Geonosian overseer and just needed to roll two sevens to kill another Echani, with the other one pinned down (she had taken a 10 damage shot from Whorm and could not run away from the Iggy basing her without probably dying). I got the sevens, and then Randy rolled three 1’s in his four shots to not even take out another IG-86 with his last Echani, who was promptly dispatched. So thanks to some good luck all I had to deal with were the commanders, who fell before the still-formidable firepower of HK and two Iggys with double. Randy played his squad brilliantly and thwarted pretty much everything I tried to do until the end. With a little more luck he might have had me. Bastila and Atris versus HK and one IG-86 would have been very doable; two Iggys was just a little too much.

After that game I was happy to see Wes’s squad, which was New Corran, Cad Bane, Artoopio, a Klatooinian Captain, Lobot, and Dodonna. He brought in a TBSV for extra firepower and I brought 7 mice and two ugnaughts to thwart the application of said firepower. We played on his Chancellor’s Starship and I basically set up the phalanx in gambit and waited. Wes had to choose between charging in and hoping for the best or letting me take a lot of shots against his guys and then build mouse walls. He elected for the former and made his three attacks on an IG-86, unfortunately missing one and failing to kill it. I ran HK over to disrupt him, killed Artoopio, and shot Corran lots to try and kill him. Corran made two absorb energy saves, though, negating a total of 120(!) damage and staying alive. I won gambit and took four more shots on him with the Iggy that he had failed to kill, rolling quite high and finishing poor Corran off. After that it was mop-up until I herded Cad Bane into a corner with like 15 pieces. Wes was a lot of fun to play with and laughed all the way through a really unfortunate matchup.

Next up was Tim, perhaps the biggest name there. He was playing a squad that I liked quite a bit and had seriously considered playing in Atlanta; Can Bane, Arica, Thrawn, and Pellaeon. His version included Gha Nachkt, so he could bring in 10 mouse droids and match my activation count (which was the same as outactivating me by one, since he could always make me go first). Unfortunately my choice of maps was awful for this matchup – either his Chancellor’s Starship or my Peaceful City. I chose Peaceful City and we had at it. Second turn he used Arica to make some pretty ineffective blaster barrages (last and first) and ran her away. Aha, says I, I’ll trap her with HK so he can’t swap out and then I’ll kill her! Unfortunately that plan was insanely poorly thought out, as instead he moved Cad Bane over and nuked, you know, pretty much the only unique piece I had. After that I shook his hand because there was no way I was coming back. It’s a really awful matchup, especially with nothing but very Arica-friendly maps to pick from, and I was just too impatient to even begin to make up for that.

But on the plus side our 15-minute game let me walk over to Daniel’s game with Mike, where I proceeded to trash-talk Daniel and offer a bounty on his head. Daniel responded by rolling misses with Han every single time he attacked, and Mike smacked him down righteously. Now I have been a part of Daniel’s two most depressing losses! Mike was kind and gave me $10 back, but it would have been worth every penny just to watch and listen to Daniel describe the game afterwards. Ask him about it at Gencon!

Anyway, for the fifth round I was in a win-and-in position and got to play for the playoffs against Eric Larson and his Mace in Yer (sic) Face. On his Cantina map, where Daniel had gotten stomped earlier because Mace somehow got to whatever corner Daniel had his commanders stashed in and massacred them. I brought in 7 mice and two ugnaughts again and smiled at Eric’s advice that another IG-86 would have been the better choice. I used the mice to build a ridiculous fortress around HK and his Iggys so that Eric had to use an inconvenient lift-swap-run maneuver to get Mace in base contact with something he wanted to kill. Then we had a dialogue that went something like this:

Eric: “Attacking with momentum…”
Me: “Nah, HK has disruptive.”
Eric, after looking at the card again: “I suppose I just lost the game, then.”
Me: “Probably.”

Mace did him no favors, rolling a crit but otherwise flaming out, coming up with a spectacular four misses on six total rolls needing only sixes. Big Bad Mace didn’t even kill a single IG-86. I shot him a bunch with the only Iggy he could get to with Anakin, just in case. Next Anakin charged in and also rolled a miss, joining Mace in the Failed to Kill an Iggy Club. HK chuckled darkly and ordered his metallic brethren to slaughter the interlopers, which they did, and Eric conceded. Sometimes it’s worth it to play an unfamiliar piece just because of the unfamiliarity! It was also fun to talk with a fellow engineer about a different class of nerdy things. I forgot who Daniel was playing against, but I probably trash-talked him some more. It didn’t work the second time. In my past two games I had played four total rounds.

4-1 with 12 points was enough to finish 2nd, which was a relief because it meant someone else might knock out Tim so I wouldn’t have to play him again! Instead Wes and I got a rematch. You could pretty much read the account of our other game again. Actually, I probably got the games confused in my head and that account is from the second game anyway. Regardless, he played a much tighter match the second time, but HK’s disruptive just wrecked Corran’s efficacy too badly for his squad to succeed. He was great to play with again and was happy to play for 3rd place and the TIE fighter helmet prize.

Unfortunately for me, Tim won his game as well and we had to go at it. I decided to try something different and brought in a Treadwell droid so I could better threaten his stealthy attackers. We played on his map and I used Daniel’s sound advice to build an anti-blaster barrage phalanx around the throne room. Tim counted squares about fifteen times to make sure that there really were 13 between his deployment zone and the first door in the middle before pushing Arica and Cad forward. Second round I shot at his scrubs some and, seeing an huge blaster barrage in my imminent future (that I would not be able to stop), tried to position him into a losing move. I threw San Hill way up front with a mouse or two, then moved Whorm Loathsome into gambit. Tim didn’t even take that bait, so I moved the Treadwell droid up to take away his stealth. Tim didn’t want to get shot at, so he acted.

Now in hindsight, I had the right general idea but did not execute well. My positioning was such that Tim could base Whorm, kill him, and then fly away out of LOS. If I had put Whorm further back, maybe my plan would have worked – with Cad having already gone, it would be safe to move HK within six, pin Cad in place, and open fire with the rest of my Iggys. Of course, maybe Tim would have made 8 evade saves, or just ran away from the trap! In any event, he rolled a crit to blow Whorm away and then took San Hill as a bonus (he was basing both of them). If I had had unlimited time to think about it maybe things would have gone better, but in all honesty Tim is probably too experienced and patient to fall for something like that anyway. I had to try! The rest of the game was me eating that huge blaster barrage I mentioned, killing Arica afterwards (surprisingly difficult, with my double and twin gone), and then getting picked apart by Cad swapping to wherever, gunning down an Iggy, and then fading away. I had put forth a better effort than in our first game, but Tim still prevailed by a very large margin to earn his 7th regional win. Well done, Tim! I only wish our games had been closer and more interesting! On the plus side, the second place prize was an AT-AT, a piece that I didn’t have and was actually watching on eBay to buy. Plus I did better than Daniel, which is always enjoyable.

We would have loved to stay and hang out with Les and the New York crew for another night, but Bronson had work the next day and so we needed to split. Daniel handled most of the night driving, we dropped Bronson off at the Centerville Wal-Mart, and I took us the rest of the way home as the sun rose. We spent about $100 on gas, drove almost 1400 miles, and only ate two real meals (and a handful of delicious baked goods) in two days. And it was totally worth it. It was great to get to meet several groups of players that we hadn’t before, especially the New York crew, who are a hilarious bunch of guys. Most of all, a big thanks to Les for being so generous with his house and his time, leading our vehicle convoy everywhere, providing fantastic accommodations, and judging to boot. It was a great time, a great tournament, and we are totally down to do it again next year.

The only difference is in our game Jake you were going to lose and in Tim's he was going to win. You made it easy on me to finish so I didn't have to chase you down but I had Carth with speed 8 who could track down your pieces quickly with the Battlemaster and Klatoonian Cpt. with speed 8 and a Jedi Diplomat. Whatever the case, nothing can be done as it is/was not against the rules.

It was fun. Sadly, I lost my sheet, so I stopped keeping track. All I know, is the save one was a bit unfair to me. With Triple Sith Sorcery and Illusion, I was giving out a ton of save opportunities.

Reminds me of what I did in the last Regional we had in Cincy (which was pre-DotF), I played a huge swarm squad with Leia HC and Dodonna plus Ewoks/Ugs/Brutes. I kept track of the amount of saves for Evade and for Leia's CE. It was pretty hilarious, I'm sure it's still in the 2010 Regionals thread here.

Keep it. The end of Epic Dous was a mess I told you all to sort it out yourselves and that is what I stand by.