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 Post subject: Stealth(please post what you think)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:08 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Stealth is not done very well in the books. So I want to try and talk it out with others.
stealth vs Perception check to see if your noticed(have to have cover to make a stealth check). -2/+2 for circumstances,-5 if you move more than your speed and -10 if you move twice your speed in a round. Can use snipe to try and re hide as a move action after making a ranged attack if your at least two squares from the target(-10 or your location is revealed).

Perception
Perception vs Stealth
Size and for every 10 squares its -5 on perception checks and -5 for concealment then -10 for total cover.
Detecting a target that enters line of sight is a reaction.

The book says nothing about having their dexterity bonus being denied vs hidden attackers outside of the Scout talent Uncanny Dodge 1 and Surprise rounds.
I think thats just an oversight from reading the scout talent Uncanny Dodge 1 and if your a hidden attacker your opp should be lose their dexterity bonus. Is this how other GM;s play it? I think this is the reason Scouts and SC take a big hit to there attack but I could be wrong.

So you stealth out then opps roll a perception vs your stealth to see if your around as a reaction when you come into line of sight. You shoot someone the only way to try and re hide vs people that were around that can see you is to use snipe or Create a Diversion to hide. I understand stealth to here(I think) and this is where I get lost.
Is your stealth check still good vs people that dont know your around in that room but hear your shot?
vs people that didnt hear the shot or dont know your around?
How do comlinks work into all of this?

This is what I get from reading the book and some of the talents.


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 Post subject: Re: Stealth(please post what you think)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:45 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Real world situation, says no to being undetected. They may not "See" him but perception is more than sight. When we got sniped in Iraq we knew damn well where the fire was coming from even if we couldn't see the shooter. We then proceeded to blow the $#!! out of that area until no more gunfire was returned :)

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 Post subject: Re: Stealth(please post what you think)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:53 pm 
Death Star Designers
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It's been a while since I've played the Star Wars RPG, but if I recall correctly (and I'm fairly sure this is how it works in DnD, too, which is nearly the same rule set for these kinds of things) if the target is not aware of the attacker they do not get a Dex bonus against the attacks, no matter the reason that they aren't aware of them. If it's because of a Stealth check, if it's because of some spell (or equipment in Star Wars), if it's because the target is sleeping, whatever; if you're not at all aware of the incoming attack, it doesn't matter how dexterous you are. Basically you're treated as flat footed for that attack.

The difference between that and actually being flat footed, of course, is that flat footed can interact with other feats/abilities differently, and being flat footed effects ALL incoming attacks.

Take that with a grain of salt, because like I said it's been quite a while since I've played Saga Edition, but I've played a whole lot of other RPGs and that's the general way I've seen it handled, pretty much regardless of system.

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 Post subject: Re: Stealth(please post what you think)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:56 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Real world situation, says no to being undetected. They may not "See" him but perception is more than sight. When we got sniped in Iraq we knew damn well where the fire was coming from even if we couldn't see the shooter. We then proceeded to blow the $#!! out of that area until no more gunfire was returned :)


Of course that assumes they both saw the shot and where it came from, and that the shooter didn't move while still in hiding. Either of those could easily prevent the death. Sure, you could figure a general area where it might have come from, but you must know that a trained sniper could get off several shots before he/she is spotted. And if that person was able to remain hidden from the defense, they could easily move before a rocket or other area effect weapon could hit that area (assuming even that the responding character was holding such a weapon). I think that's what the -10 penalty is supposed to demonstrate. You can try to rehide, but it's much harder once you've been noticed. It's a -2 when you haven't been noticed, but moving is required, etc.

As I told Jonny, unlike in the past, where a character was built specifically and illogically to exploit only the stealth rules in the game to the point of broken was this an issue. With my character, it's simply her way of defending herself and her pistol. I'm not exploiting stealth with my build at all. It's simple defense. Obviously in real life, a character like mine would hope to one shot kill their target - but that doesn't work in the RPG. I don't care about taking a -10 or whatever penalty is required, I simply want to be able to use the regular stealth rules - particularly Snipe and the theft portions.

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 Post subject: Re: Stealth(please post what you think)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:05 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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billiv15 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Real world situation, says no to being undetected. They may not "See" him but perception is more than sight. When we got sniped in Iraq we knew damn well where the fire was coming from even if we couldn't see the shooter. We then proceeded to blow the $#!! out of that area until no more gunfire was returned :)


Of course that assumes they both saw the shot and where it came from, and that the shooter didn't move while still in hiding. Either of those could easily prevent the death. Sure, you could figure a general area where it might have come from, but you must know that a trained sniper could get off several shots before he/she is spotted. And if that person was able to remain hidden from the defense, they could easily move before a rocket or other area effect weapon could hit that area (assuming even that the responding character was holding such a weapon). I think that's what the -10 penalty is supposed to demonstrate. You can try to rehide, but it's much harder once you've been noticed. It's a -2 when you haven't been noticed, but moving is required, etc.

As I told Jonny, unlike in the past, where a character was built specifically and illogically to exploit only the stealth rules in the game to the point of broken was this an issue. With my character, it's simply her way of defending herself and her pistol. I'm not exploiting stealth with my build at all. It's simple defense. Obviously in real life, a character like mine would hope to one shot kill their target - but that doesn't work in the RPG. I don't care about taking a -10 or whatever penalty is required, I simply want to be able to use the regular stealth rules - particularly Snipe and the theft portions.


Yes, you are absolutely right you should get a stealth check, but at a penalty. Sorry maybe my RL example was less clear than I thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Stealth(please post what you think)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:01 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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no I think you real life example quite clear. But again how many people understand the dynamics of being shot at for real? Other than you and I I dont know anyone else that plays RPG that does.

When i GM'd I applied real world tactics to my decisions as a GM. If the stealth at that point did not make tactical sense then you just did not get it.

It tactical terms:

Stealth undetected.....

Concealment hidden....

People shooting generally are not stealthy..... even if someone can not pinpoint a location they are aware of danger in a general direction. They can hear.... they can see where a shot came from even if they miss the muzzle flash they can see by the bullet hole or blaster mark in which direction the shot came from.

I think the RPG could have done folks a favor and used tactically sound terms instead of SW minis or other RPG terms. A sniper is concealed after he fires. Before firing he should be stealthed if he has done his job correctly.

But again we are talking rpg terms and we are using vassal the distance generally doesnt warrant someone being able to just stealth out in the middle of a firefight. I almost wish we could create our own rule for the game and give a character like Bill's a bonus for concealment. He isnt stealthed out but experience has taught him how to conceal himself to the point it is very hard to hit him.

I dont know I am just rambling but just thought I would.

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 Post subject: Re: Stealth(please post what you think)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:09 pm 
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Just so you know, page 145 of the core, under defenses, it states that if you are flat footed or unaware of your target you lose your dex bonus to reflex. So, yeah.

Under stealth, you can make a deception check to create a diversion, then a stealth check to hide and not be seen. Page 73 of the core

Last up, after you make an attack when hidden, you have to roll another stealth check to remain hidden. You have to be more than
2 squares from the target, and you take a -10 to your check vs their perception. Page 73 of the core rulebook again.

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