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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:10 am 
Master of the Order
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I think the Loading Docks would be a FANTASTIC addition to the Restricted List, especially if we add in other maps like Peaceful City, Transport Facility, etc., that are slightly more shooter orientated. Cargo Docks is a melee heaven, and is very nice for Force Push squads as well. However, it does still have some long-ish shooting lanes, and drives people to build squads that are more balanced. I like how you could use the map itself to stop things like Yobuck squads as well, because a simple 30 HP piece, or something with a BG'd behind it, could be used to block some of the 1-square wide hallways.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:01 pm 
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Jedicartographer wrote:
I could've sworn we've all discussed how the docks isn't good for the restricted list. Maybe I'm nuts. And I've gone on record in the past saying that the docks is my all time favorite map from West.


No problem there Matt, so go ahead and remind us why you feel that way? Because I know I am not a map expert in terms of how the map relates to game play outside of the really obvious abusive maps.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:45 pm 
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Look I'm going to stay out of this topic as much as possible. And at the risk of sounding like a baby it would be nice if at least one if MY actual maps would be considered for the restricted list. No one even seems to want to bring up any of the maps I actually made. Peaceful City is great and we all know Chris West is a better artist than me, but no one has worked harder at getting custom maps out there. So please don't turn this into popularity contest or an art contest.

I am going to playlets like everyone else, but I really feel like Chris and I are too close to the issues to be part of the decision process. I will play test fairly and give my input, but I'm going to stay out of it.

So with that said I'm going to stay out of it ;)

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:26 pm 
Mandalore
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Don't discredit your maps like that Matt. Many of us have nothing but good things to say about them. Heck even guys like me who have made comments in the past can give credit where it's due. And I look forward to using your maps in tournies in the near future.

But I have to give you mad props for your willingness to step aside in the decision process. That is very selfless of you, especially because you have worked hard to get secondary maps to us and at a reasonable cost. No one forgets what your art has done for this game.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:21 am 
Master of the Order
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Matt, don't sweat it dude.....I'm quite sure that THEED has been one of the top contenders for the Restricted List all along. ;)

But you and Chris staying out of the discussion to some degree might not be a bad thing, so that there's no chance of bias playing into things at all.

Just like next year when that AWESOME Rishi Outpost map is up for addition to the Restricted List, I'll stay out of that discussion.... LOL

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:28 am 
Mandalore
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LoboStele wrote:
Just like next year when that AWESOME Rishi Outpost map is up for addition to the Restricted List, I'll stay out of that discussion.... LOL


I'll be happy to complain about it however, if you like ;)

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:43 am 
Mandalore
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Its ok, Aaron, everyone already knows its going to be the worst map ever. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:53 pm 
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I've been thinking about this a lot, but Matt has made it much easier with the pics to post about it.

First, the easy part. I think there's little point in early distinction between Standard and Open. Pretty much everything that doesn't have some obvious problem or exhibit close similarities to a known problematic map, or is clearly a scenario map should be on the Standard List. We can err on on the optimistic side here and avoid trying to "test" 30 maps for Standard/Open qualification.

So "default" is standard. From there a map must prove itself exceptionally good or bad to be moved to one of the other lists. As noted, Restricted is significantly more important to get right at the outset. If we err a bit on the Standard list it's easy enough to correct at 6 month intervals by dropping bad/unpopular maps to Open.

For Restricted my personal starting point would be the criteria previously used for the Restricted List and trying to accomodate, if possible, at least one map from each of the map packs, and at least one side of the West posters, though asking every poster to make restricted is a bit much considering there's only two to choose from. And unlike Standard/Open, for Restricted/Standard it's probably best to err on the side of caution and have a few maps that might be "elevated" to Restricted later.

1. Reasonable advancement possibilities (even without movement breakers) is one of the biggest. Can a characeter have a chance to quickly and safely move to gambit?

2. No across the board LOS. I beleive that you should be able to not be attacked on any map if you choose to set up defensively. (Example - on Hoth - no matter how you set up - you can be decimated in round one.)

3. Walls in Gambit. Walls - not just cover, and not even doors. Ask yourself one question - can I be attacked in every square in gambit from the apponents starting area? If it's a "yes", the map has to go. This way you can, and MUST advance to gambit where action takes place.

4. No major squad exploitation. This one is the most subjectively difficult to assess from just looking at the map. Does a particular type of squad have an unresonably huge advantage due to the particular layout of the maps? Some examples--flying shooters on Arena. Cloak/Superstealth on Korriban. Rebel Cannon squads on Teth Monastery. And recently, deep strike (Kybuck/Lancer) squads must be considered as potentially abusive on any random map due to their massive speed and crowd control. You only really need to consider this one if 1-3 pass so the tough work only needs to be done on a small number of maps.

JC Map Pack 1

Theed
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Safe starts, easy approaches and a gambit design that lets you put a wall between wherever your opponemt might be trying to snipe from. Proven favorite over time by many competetive players. There is the annoyance of the "mistake" cover-line and JC's personal concern about the elevation mismatch but I think those things are easy enough to ignore to let a MP1 map into the restricted list.

(Omitted: Taris Lower City, Mandalorian Camp on Dxun, Jedi Enclave, Felucia, Echo Base)

JC Map Pack 2

Anchorhead
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Good starts and approaches. Like most of the maps in this set, how open gambit is presents the primary weakness. Looking over the packs options, this one seems to have the best layout. Some longish horizontal LOSes into gambit do exist particularly from the left side once the primary door is taken care of. It's borderline, but given only one side has the problem, and the opposing player gets to choose side it's probably managable.

(Omitted: Ughnaught Mines, Mustafar, Blackpit Slums, Old Casino, Korriban, Khoonda Settlement, Kashyyyk Treetop City)

JC Map Pack 3 (Desert City Invasion)

Residential Area
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The best choice from this set, though it pales in comparison to other sets. Starts and approaches are fine, but the gambit design is on the weak side for the Restricted list with the very long LOS available to left once doors are taken care of. Still, if you bring the map the odds of getting left are slim to none, so the map remains in the running.

(Omitted: Yavin Ruins, Yavin Sanctuary, Star Forge, Outer Rim Fueling Station, Tatooine 1-3)

JC Map Pack 4 (Strongholds)

Lots of options here. The most consistent of any pack. Keep in mind I haven't even played on each of them once yet, so this is based only on visual inspection. I've placed them loosely in order of preference.

JC4
Spynet HQ
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Safe starts and decent approaches. Really unique gambit design with short LOSes, but little cover. Strong design.

Asteroid Base
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Jabba's Throne Room
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Good starts and easy approaches. Left seems to have a significant advantage in the gambit protection, but not a major issue since left is reasonable safe from long-range sniping too.

Spice Mines of Kessel
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Good starts. Approaches can be a bit tough as you try to get doors while not being vulnerable to sniping. Gambit is good from three sides--only the bottom has a very long LOS once the doors are taken care of.

Peaceful City
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Safe starts. Approaches can be a bit tough as they're somewhat vulnerable to diagonal sniping. Fairly long LOS into gambit from the top/bottom ones the doors are taken care of.

Rhen Var Citadel
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Safe starts. Unique layout with the gambit approaches all from the side. Gambit's quite open once the entry doors are dealt with. The weakness lies there. Will a puddle jumping flier allow too much control of gambit making it suicide for a melee squad to try to force an approach? The chase factor is a concern...

(Omitted: Royal Palace, Grand Atrium)

MoM Poster 1 (Mass Transit)

Offworld Shipping Center
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OSC has protected starts, easy approaches, and mostly protected Gambit. The weakest point here is the longish LOS from left into gambit once the central door is blown. There's also the minor error of a "door that's not a door" in the southeast quadrant but that's nothing we haven't seen on WotC maps and not a dealbreaker. It's all about that one LOS.

(Omitted: Exodus Class Cruiser)

MoM Poster 2 (Forsaken Lands)

Swamp Caves
Image
Over time this one has proved to play much tighter than it looks. Movement can be tough, but not in a way detrimental to gameplay. Protected starts, great Gambit protection and moderately safe approaches from both sides meet the criteria. The weakness here is the recent phenomena of extreme range Lancer/Kybuck strikes on a map with no doors. Is going from Rancor Pen's one door to this map's zero doors too advantageous for deep strike squads? It's a legitimate question, and the answer determines its fate.

(Omitted: Desert Sanctum)

MoM Poster 3 (Mass Transit II)

The only MoM poster where there's a real competition between the two sides...

Loading Docks
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The tightest map we've ever seen. Easily meets the start and approach requirements. The line from the bottom center is pretty long into most of gambit--the weakest point of the typical criteria. There's a minor problem here that even with the new rigid rules, a huge on the right can't reach gambit. It's a unique map, and offering something different within the rigorous standards of the Restricted list would be nice, so I'm pulling for this one.

Offworld Transport Facility
Image
Safe Starts and protected approaches. Gambit is the weakest point here where it's quite open to fairly long LOS from both side once the center/low doors are controlled. Quite similar to Offworld Shipping Center--it's fate rests on the "how long is too long" to give melee a real chance at forcing engagement by controlling gambit. If Loading Docks is considered too potentially problematic, this one is a not unreasonable fallback, particularly if OSC is already making the cut.

MoM Poster 4 (Forsaken Lands II)

Badlands
Image
Quite similar to Swamp Caves. Safe starts and moderately safe approaches. Great, protected gambit. Movement is much easier/faster here with the wide corridors and very limited yellow/green squares. The question here, just like Swamp Caves is whether it gives too much advantage to a very limited set of deep strike builds.

(Omitted: Deep Caverns)

Wildcard (never widely distributed)

Smuggler's Base
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One of my longtime favorite custom maps and one of the few I've printed out myself. Safe starts, good approaches, and a great gambit area that forces engagement but still leaves some room for different avenues of attack. Stellar competetive map. If JC decides to reprint Theed, I hope there's the possibility of this being on the back.

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Last edited by NickName on Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:17 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:29 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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I agree with Nickname's post, above. As long as we don't take it too far, I think that trying hard to find at least 1 map from each mappack is good for the artists, which in turn is good for the game.

And yes, Theed has always been an auto-include, IMHO. It's still one of my favorite maps to play on.


EDIT: Adjusted to list my preferred maps from each of the available releases:
MP1: Theed, of course.
MP2: Anchorhead, but I'm not sure it should make the cut.
MP3: [none really seem suitable, IMHO. Sorry!]
MP4: Spice Mines of Kessel...Good setup options for both sides, and I like the small hallways into gambit. Creative design with plenty of gameplay possibilities.
MoM1: Offworld Shipping Center
MoM2: Swamp Caves
MoM3: Loading Docks for sure. It offers a good counter to Yobuck/Lancer without giving any advantage at all to shooters.
MoM4: Badlands

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Matt, you appear to be missing the pic for the MP4 map with "Grand Atrium" in the center on the back of Spynet HQ poster. (Not a candidate for restricted IMHO anyway.)

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:58 pm 
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@ Jason- Yeah I didn't bother putting it up after i realized I hadn't done it in the frost place, its not a good candidate.

1 quick point to make- I'm hoping that the Theed Re-Issue is one that we can take a look at as opposed to the original, after the corrections have been made I don't see any issues really that would effect gameplay.

I'm worried a lot of people don't have the MP1 Theed, and I have no qualms getting a new one out and selling it for really cheap, like 6 or 7 dollars.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:18 pm 
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Jedicartographer wrote:
I'm worried a lot of people don't have the MP1 Theed, and I have no qualms getting a new one out and selling it for really cheap, like 6 or 7 dollars.


I dont have it, so +1 from me.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:21 pm 
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Okay. Done filling in the details in my list above. Looks like it's ended up with 15 possibilities for the Restricted list and a few options from all 3 of our major map makers as well as one from every available product. A decent starting point.

If anyone has a strong argument for why one of the omitted maps should be added above, or wants a quick explanation as to which of the critieria I think an omitted map violates just say the word.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:16 pm 
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I'd be one of the first ones with my wallet out if we could get a Theed / Smuggler's Base map. That would be great!


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:37 pm 
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Demosthenes wrote:
I'd be one of the first ones with my wallet out if we could get a Theed / Smuggler's Base map. That would be great!

Me too! And if, for some reason, Smuggler's base becomes available in that way, then I'd give a strong vote for that map to be considered for the Restricted list too. It's one of my favorites, right along with Theed.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:07 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
I'd be one of the first ones with my wallet out if we could get a Theed / Smuggler's Base map. That would be great!

Me too! And if, for some reason, Smuggler's base becomes available in that way, then I'd give a strong vote for that map to be considered for the Restricted list too. It's one of my favorites, right along with Theed.


I'd be pulling my wallet out as well. I missed the boat on MP1, and if one/both made the R-list then even better!


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:51 pm 
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I agree with Nickname's analysis. Spynet HQ I think is my favorite map from MP4.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:40 pm 
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Demosthenes wrote:
I'd be one of the first ones with my wallet out if we could get a Theed / Smuggler's Base map. That would be great!



You can pretty much count on it. Josh and I discussed it today and If You decide to put the smugglers base on the restricted list, it will go on the flip side of the Theed re-do.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:59 pm 
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HEre's one we plan on putting in the league kit. I am hoping that something from the league kit can make the restricted list, but it really isn't a pressing issue. Just thought we should at least post the layout

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Add my vote against Exodus for the Restricted list. Great looking map, but advancement is pretty difficult even though it looks like there should be plenty of places to hide.


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