dnemiller wrote:
The reason being Brad took ridicule from members of the community IE Sparks for looking for help.
I think it's safe to say that the members that Brad is getting response from now are NOT the ones that ridiculed him earlier in the project. Please, let's separate the two issues here.
At no time have I EVER tried to diminish Brad's work. Personally though (and I didn't say it then because I didn't want to ruffle feathers), but I think the whole 'behind closed doors' aspect of it was really crappy. To shut out people like myself or TINT because we don't have time to play as many games, or because we can't get on Vassal is really biased in my opinion, and is a waste of people who ARE willing to help. Too many times lately in this community, it comes across as 'help us the way WE want help, or we don't care about you'. That might not be what you intend, but that's how it comes across. Part of being a community is taking everyone's strengths AND their weaknesses, and trying to make it all work together.
For what it's worth, I did give quite a bit of input to this whole thing, as much as I was able to, seeing as how I don't get many chances to play games. I assessed the maps, played through scenarios in my head, worked through issues, counted squares, looked at setup zones, double-checked LOS, counted out deep strike possibilities, etc. To say that work of that nature is less valuable than Brad's is partly true, but that doesn't mean it should be just brushed aside completely. Frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of that approach with the members of this community.
I DID try to help with this whole thing. I offered my thoughts. I've probably played more games on Offworld Shipping Center than any of the other new maps added to the list. It 100% should've been added to the list in favor of several of the others on there....If for no other reason than to at least make an effort to show Chris that we do care about his involvement in the community! I'm not saying to just put one of his maps on there just to please him, but the fact is, Offworld Shipping Center is AT LEAST as good as Spynet and Anchorhead (if not better, IMO). So if that's the case, then wouldn't it have been good to include at least one of Chris' maps? Perhaps you don't feel like his work is up to par, but if even ONE of them is....reward the good behavior. Positive reinforcement always works better than negative reinforcement.
dnemiller wrote:
For over four years going back to the days of being on WOTC we have implored Chris to listen to some advice on how to make a highly competitive map. In four years I have felt like that he has chosen not to listen. That is fine and his right to do so.
To hear you say this.....nearly shatters my faith in you to handle the Floor Rules. How can you possibly say that Chris chose not to listen to the community? He has over and over and over again, with every new map he has created, posted up threads to discuss the maps, and garner input from the community. The fact that he HAS listened to us is VERY evident in his map design. Look at the last three maps of the Mass Transit series, and compare that to any of the ones he was doing shortly before that (Teth, Ossus, Train Station, etc.). The improvement is IMMENSE. Talk about slap in the face, indeed!
dnemiller wrote:
I mean if you cant look at swamp caves minus any doors and not figure out that it is certain death against a lancer squad than I really dont know what else to say. Talk to Urbanjedi about how that would work out if it was legal. He will be more than willing to show you how that would turn out.
Yep, I totally understand Swamp Caves for the Lancer/Yobuck deep strike issue. But on the other hand...I thought that was why we were introducing stuff like the Jedi Seer and the Mando Gunsmith. Yeah, not every squad will do well on those maps. But just like all along with the maps, you have to count on losing map roll 50% of the time. If you build a squad that depends on Swamp Caves, like Jason's double Lancer squad, you have to know that if you lose map and get stuck on more closed in, door heavy maps, you're screwed. Jason's squad ONLY worked well at Gencon this year because he played the absolute crap out it. And even he admits that. So we all know that it's not quite as competitive as the other top builds. So why should a map be excluded simply because of that? I feel that there are enough other things in the game now (Seer, Gunsmith, Jaster Mereel's CE, plus all the other pre-existing counters), that the open map is not so much of an issue.
dnemiller wrote:
No it is just the typical community response I have come to expect. We dont want help you come to your conclusions but certainly reserve the right to rip you apart later for them. Again I am not saying you are doing this.
Of interesting thing to keep in mind here though. You're hearing complaints from one of the ONLY THREE map makers for the community, and then some of the top-end players. Not the typical complainers. And we DID offer to help come to the conclusions. You all chose to ignore the help we had to offer.
Look, in the end, I did think through the post I put up earlier. The only reason why I'm responding with such shock and energy in my posts, is because I am quite simply...SHOCKED!
Seriously though...through all the discussions we've had over the last couple years, all I've heard over and over and over again, was general praise for Chris' latest work. Sure, some of them are still more artistic and not as much competitive, but I can't think of any time where I've seen someone accuse Offworld Shipping Center of being abusive. So yeah, I'm being outspoken because I too feel like the rug was pulled out from under me.
I really don't want to point any fingers or claim favoritism in any way here.....but I know for a fact that when Jabba's Palace was being designed, even Bill said he wasn't sure it would be suitable for the Restricted List. So I ask the same question that TINT did.....how did that get on the list when Offworld Shipping Center didn't?
Also, I thought the whole point of having the Floor Rules be updated twice a year was so that we could utilize the Regionals in order to identify any problems in the tournament setting. So if some maps like Offworld Shipping Center or Swamp Caves were marginal, then why not put them on the list for now, and if they do indeed prove to be abusive, take them back off in July. We have that system in place. Why not use it?
Overall, I'm quite happy with the list. Just looking for a little explanation. And yeah, I'm getting heated about it, because as usual, I ask a question, and instead of people being civil and giving an explanation or their thoughts about it, they just get all huffy and say that the rest of us should just take what we're given and be happy with it. Well, I'm letting you know, just like Chris and TINT, that I'm not happy about none of Chris' maps making the cut, and I think it's a mistake (not just because we could potentially lose Chris' support, but simply because I think some of his maps truly are great for Restricted).
Anyways...rant over...