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Getting along with bloomilk
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Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Getting along with bloomilk

Yes, I realize this is pretty ironic me posting this, since most recently it was I who had a big hand in making bloomilk frustrating for many of those in charge over here. However, with what just went down, there were a lot of awful attitudes evidenced (for a time there, mine included for sure). It's very hard to beleive sometimes that there really is any interest in community input on the V-sets. That doesn't mean anyhting is wrong with the designers; allowing for input can quite possibly increase the work involved, and I'm sure it's more than enough to do already. However, here are some things that happened that I think should be avoided if we are to get as many people as possible to realize that the goal is to make the game better.

1. When stating that I thought that the design team wasn’t the only place where good ideas could be generated, I was accused of thinking that I alone could do better than the whole design team.

2. When stating my reasoning as to why I thought something could be changed, I was accused of demanding that every whim I had for the direction of the V-set be followed.

3. When suggesting that the community could be involved in the design of anywhere from 1 to 6 pieces of a set ( I would have been happy with one or two), I am accused of trying to grind the system to a halt by demanding that everyone be involved in the design of all 60 pieces. This happened not only right after I made the request back when WotC announced it was dropping the game, but twice recently.

4. When making that same argument for that change, I get accused of being against everything the design team is doing and am told that if I don’t like what is being done, then I should leave. The “with us or against us” attitude seems to be what is most in the way of anyone who weighed in to accept constructive criticism.

5. After stating what I thought should be changed because I thought it would be beneficial to the game, one of the people capable of giving previews threatened to withhold future previews because of my attempt at constructive criticism. I then am told to wait until the set is released (and it is too late to change the pieces), and then I’m free to “complain” all I want. I just don’t think that makes sense.

This one has been answered. Instead of a threat, it was meant more of as a suggestion that if people complain, somone other than the person making the statement might not want to give previews. The person making the "threat" was worried about the potential actions of someone else, not making a threat himself.

6. My question of submitting even ONE piece for ideas is NEVER answered with anything other than saying essentially that “there is no way we can involve everyone on the design of all 60 pieces.”

7. When I tried to bring up these concerns, the thread was either locked or I was told to like what was going on, or leave. Any criticism I had was equated with trying to destroy the v-set effort here. Perhaps worst of all, I was called out for having done absolutely nothing for the game and having invested no time in the effort, when what I was doing then, and what I am trying to do now (in addition to spending hours compiling that list), is to help.

A lot of these things are pretty clear evidence as to why a lot of people see the gamers effort as just a few guys who want to do everything their way only. While lately I have not agreed with Boris very often, I think by following his example with cwh008, where he stated why financially cwh008’s concerns just aren’t reasonable. Sure, cwh accepted none of it, but anyone else who had an issue could really argue with that, since Boris took the time to actually explain, instead of stating that the design team knows exactly what it’s doing so you don’t need to know and if you don’t like, it leave.

I truly hope my concerns will be attempted to be addressed. I think that actually trying to explain rationales will do a lot to help dispel complaints. Obviously there will always be complaints, but the ignoring of people’s concerns and responding with polarizations and sensationalizations could go a long way. I know mine have caused a lot of headaches and I am sorry, but we will get nowhere If we keep doing those things.

Author:  dnemiller [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Maybe someone will come along and give you some rational answers you are looking for.

For me, I could care less about bloomilk and its forums. It has something to do with its 2 year history of folks just being ugly. At this point I really have zero tolerance for it. For quite some time folks over there have dumped on this site, myself and others that choose to come here. So really there is just a long history there. If you are not aware of it then you missed out. I know some folks just refuse to go there or acknowledge the sites existence because of things that have been done there.

When your allies to your argument on bloomilk are Trapped Slider.... well I can pretty much tell you that you are going to meet resistance.

As I recall no one threatened to keep previews from bloomilk. In fact I was quite clear that I wanted the previews here because quite honestly I want the traffic. Sorry it is a comeptitive world and I want the traffic. So if you want verbalize that as a threat well that is your choosing. But to be quite frank with you I have been reluctant to do anything with bloomilk due to the nature of it posters and its absentee owner. The difference being I will be shortly sharing with Tanner at the Holocron. Mainly because it is safe and has a long track record. Tanner has always been easy to contact. Not so with Shinja. So again if you count that as a threat so be it.

Oddly you say this is not about you but you are the one screaming the most about this. Maybe if you took the time to say listen to the Sith Holonews network you would understand a little clearer the process. Since I have explained it like 8 million times on there I really dont feel like explaining it every time someone else wants me to rehash the same old thing. I did that with Gowk and it solved absolutely nothing. no matter how many times you can type an explanation you cannot make someone read the post. Case in point I think I covered what suggested mini meant like 5 times. It becamse apparent you did not read those posts once. So why should I keep going on?

So again maybe someone more wise and patient will come along and post something. I obviously am a PR nightmare and will let someone else explain all to your satifaction.

Author:  LESHIPPY [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Just so you know we have let the community be involved. There are threads out there where folks are welcome to suggest, characters, special abilities, force powers, and Commander Effects.

I don't think the design team has or will come out and say "Hey we are going to use this ability or this force power." No need to spoil the surprises the V-set holds.

Another way the community is being involved is with play testing. Different play groups are testing the pieces as they are created and motified. This is taking place in various locations and on Vassal. Is everyone allowed to playtest? No, that would also spoil the surprise.

Right now there are three people on the "design team" other select members are giving input as needed or after play testing. But even doubling the number of people how are giving input has slowed the process down, IMO. The thing would never get done if the designers had to let teh community vote on every aspect.

Listen - The design team is trying to please the majority of people out there that currently play and hope to get new people to play as well. They know they aren't going to please everyone. Why? Because we are gamers. As I was once told by SithBorg, I think, "It's a gamer's mentality to complain. If WOTC packaged $100 bills in each booster, people would complian how the bils are folded."

Author:  DarthEwokFett [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Being just a guy that likes to play minis I see it like this. I go to both forums and listen to 3 different podcasts because I love this game. I like what I have seen from the V-set and think that with Gencon not even a week in the books things are as good as we can hope for. Instead of finger pointing just support the over all game and see what comes next! Strength in number!

Chris
just a guy with a few minis and a keyboard

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

dnemiller wrote:
For me, I could care less about bloomilk and its forums. It has something to do with its 2 year history of folks just being ugly. At this point I really have zero tolerance for it. For quite some time folks over there have dumped on this site, myself and others that choose to come here. So really there is just a long history there. If you are not aware of it then you missed out. I know some folks just refuse to go there or acknowledge the sites existence because of things that have been done there.


You're right, I do know a little bit about Mandaloresomethingbeast, but thre must have been a lot I missed.

dnemiller wrote:
As I recall no one threatened to keep previews from bloomilk. In fact I was quite clear that I wanted the previews here because quite honestly I want the traffic. Sorry it is a comeptitive world and I want the traffic. So if you want verbalize that as a threat well that is your choosing.


It wasn't just bloomilk, it was a statement (page 9 of the v-set discussion thread if anyone cares) saying that complaining will make previews less likely. It's overly generous not to call that a threat to withold previews.


dnemiller wrote:
Oddly you say this is not about you but you are the one screaming the most about this.

I don't see where I said it wasn't about me. I will say it isn't just about me. Also, How is this screaming?


dnemiller wrote:
So again maybe someone more wise and patient will come along and post something. I obviously am a PR nightmare and will let someone else explain all to your satifaction.

Yeah, I'm just gonna be honest, I'd wish you wouldn't accuse me of insulting you again, but I can't help your response.

The way you talk to people at bloomilk gives them absolutely no reason to respect what you do here, regardless of how cool it is, what is done here. Obviously you can post when and where you want, but to repeatedly post that people should accept it unquestionably or leave really only harms the effort of all the work you put in along with everyone else, and I think it would be best if you avoid posting there in such a way, it wins no one over. Sorry if that's out of line to request.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

LESHIPPY wrote:
Right now there are three people on the "design team" other select members are giving input as needed or after play testing. But even doubling the number of people how are giving input has slowed the process down, IMO. The thing would never get done if the designers had to let teh community vote on every aspect.


No offense to you personally, but this is an EXACT prime example of what I am talking about. I say that involving the community in the design of 1 mini is something worth considering, and then I am painted to be saying that the community should be involved in "every aspect". This has literally got to be the tenth time this has happened.

Author:  kenred2 [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Something tells me that getting the community involved may lead into a popularity contest, which is not necessarily a good thing IMO

Author:  jedispyder [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

It would be a cluster**** trying to get the community to agree on one piece. Someone would always go, "No, it should have X and not Y. Until you change that I won't take part in this." Or they'll try to make the most broken piece out there, and when the Design Team tests it and decides it's not accurately costed/etc then everyone will complain. So it's much easier to just not try in the first place. I feel the whole "suggestions" threads work perfectly to show the designers the types of things we want.

Author:  thereisnotry [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Motti, from the start of this whole V-set discussion, you have been trying to find a way to make sure that your hand is visible and/or active in the design of the V-sets. That's fine; thanks for your offers to help, and thanks for the good work you've done collecting responses into a usable resource.

But after reading these recent posts and threads, where you create drama and spread dissent and distrust about the design team, and where you try to pressure the design team to allow for more "community input," I have come to a simple conclusion: When you are calling for "community input," you're really calling for "Motti input."

There's an important difference between 1) offering to help, and 2) demanding that you be allowed to help and then squealing about it when the answer is no. Please drop it. The design team is not at the point right now where they're asking for community input. When they get to that point again, they'll ask for it; until then, just let them do their work in peace.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Just a few comments, as I have no interest in getting drawn into the middle of this:

1. This is not Gamers vs. Bloomilk. Please stop trying to turn your personal angst into a boards war. I have nothing against the majority of people who post on that site (though like Dean, I have little respect for its owner based on his operational involvement of that board). I don't think of SWM players as "bloomilkers" or "gamers," and I'm disappointed that you are trying to create turfs by labeling in this way.

2. It's very, very important for you and everyone else here to understand that there are exactly THREE people on the design team. We have people advising us and giving us playtest feedback. Some of those are privy to everything the three of us are doing. Most are not. So your entire rant here is aimed at people who - at best - operate at an advisory level. Aside from me, I don't believe there has been any posting by anyone from the design team. We just don't have time for that, between our jobs and doing this volunteer project and personal life stuff.

3. I can't find where anyone told you to leave if you didn't like how the v-set was being handled. Maybe I missed something, or something was said to you privately that I am not privy to. All I have seen that was said is that your ideas were already considered, and this is the way the few of us who developed this project decided to go with it. We don't want this project simmering on a burner for an extra year while we hammer out even one piece that requires 250 people to compromise on a single decision.

4. Finally, you didn't expect WotC to share their work with you before it came out, and you bought it anyway. We are offering this FOR FREE, and with a lot more thought, effort, and interest than WotC had in it. And you can't trust us? Well that is your decision. Nothing anyone says will change it, and further arguing with you about it only detracts from what we're doing.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

thereisnotry wrote:

But after reading these recent posts and threads, where you create drama and spread dissent and distrust about the design team, and where you try to pressure the design team to allow for more "community input," I have come to a simple conclusion: When you are calling for "community input," you're really calling for "Motti input."


And no offense, but you're flat wrong. As corny as it sounds, my main focus was being a facilitator for input (while occasionally throwing my own ideas in there, like that "Net trap" thing.). The list I made of figures had literally 0 of my requests on it, it was only those that others said. Those who have been saying the design team can literally think of every good idea for pieces might be right relative to my involvement, but I don't see how everyone can think that there is nothing anyone outside of the people in charge here can add.

thereisnotry wrote:
There's an important difference between 1) offering to help, and 2) demanding that you be allowed to help and then squealing about it when the answer is no. Please drop it. The design team is not at the point right now where they're asking for community input. When they get to that point again, they'll ask for it; until then, just let them do their work in peace.


I understand that that one piece thing isn't reasonable for this set. The fact that my constructive criticism, when I thought that some might be useful, met with senstationalism and hostility, becasue I thought that criticiszing a rough draft might help (How is that unreasonable?). You cal it squealing and attack me for things that you assume without any justification (and actually in the face of the evidence that has been seen so far), and then still, literally like everyone else, ignore the actual issues that I have wanted to address.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

jedispyder wrote:
It would be a cluster**** trying to get the community to agree on one piece. Someone would always go, "No, it should have X and not Y. Until you change that I won't take part in this." Or they'll try to make the most broken piece out there, and when the Design Team tests it and decides it's not accurately costed/etc then everyone will complain. So it's much easier to just not try in the first place. I feel the whole "suggestions" threads work perfectly to show the designers the types of things we want.


This is really the same old problem I have been talking about of taking a reasonable idea and blowing it out of proportion because you can assume any circumstances you want. Part of that is that I haven't been specific in this thread. OS here it is:

Almost immediately after the set list is finalized (making it for this set probably unreasonable), ONE (1) figure name is released and in an official thread here on Gamers, people weigh in on what they would like to see this figure do, and one week (or whatever) is allowed for input. The designers peruse through (or look at a simplified form that someone volunteers to type up for them), and see if there's anything they want to use, perhaps there's something that many people want and wouldn't be too broken, or perhaps there's literally nothing of use. Regardless, the community had a chance to get input on the actual design. It's up to them to provide a good engough idea to be accepted, nad regardess of what is accepted, they would have been involved. It's really not that different from the character or special ability request threads here, except it's more specific, in a later design stage, and for a much more limited amount of time.

Author:  dnemiller [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Dennis I think the leave comment comes from my saying:

If you dont like the V-Set then dont use it

Author:  Azavander [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

@motti

I am not pat of the design team but I seem to find your continual comments immature. A community piece is the worse idea I have ever heard, and I have a feeling, based on the pieces we have seen, that the set will give the community what they want and have a feel for the idea everyone suggested in the threads you managed.

What I don't understand is why you are making all the time and effort to causing a ruckus? Would i like to do more the design a database? Sure and I have offered to help playtest and have not been taken up on it, but do you see me creating huge debates on it. NO, and why not? Because I care about my reputation and think the game is in good hands currently and until the provide a set that blows I will continue to have trust in them.

One last point, the fact that Dean has chosen to not remove the Death Star Designers from you name means they are still trying to work with you. Frankly if you were on my forum that I am an admin of you would have been stripped of any extra privileges you may have. I would recommend that on this site too.

Author:  urbanjedi [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Motti, after reading the posts here and some of the other threads, I am not really sure what you are asking for. What do you mean when you say community involvement? There are probably 10 or 12 threads here that ask for community help in what force powers do we want, what characters do we want, etc. Basically asking us as a community to design powers, special abilities, what areas of the game we see needing to be addressed, etc. As a community member I certainly feel that I can be as involved as I want to be.

Personally I think of the V-set just like a WOTC set. I am not privy to any info until the previews start coming out and once they start coming out there isn't anything I can do to change it. Once I see the previews that come out, it may not be exactly what I would have done or liked to have seen but I certainly can't change it. I could never call up WOTC and go hey just saw your preview for a duros. There are already too many Duros IMO so can you change it to a Barabel because we don't have any? Since I couldn't do that with WOTC I don't see why I could expect to do that with this V-set or in the future with whoever has picked up our game.

So I am really not sure what issues aren't being addressed. If it is about designing a piece I cannot really see how the community would ever be able to design 1 piece because most of us aren't good at designing. 2nd we aren't privy to the other 59 pieces in the set so have no idea where our piece should wind up. 3rd it would take more time and lead to more arguments and name-calling because people cannot agree on anything and would want different abilities, etc. With that said I think it could be an interesting idea to visit for a future V-set that maybe the GenCon winner could help design a piece (sort of like MAgic had their invitational winners help design a card over the years). That of course really depends on how many V-sets we make and what whoever picked us up has in mind for the game.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
1. This is not Gamers vs. Bloomilk. Please stop trying to turn your personal angst into a boards war. I have nothing against the majority of people who post on that site (though like Dean, I have little respect for its owner based on his operational involvement of that board). I don't think of SWM players as "bloomilkers" or "gamers," and I'm disappointed that you are trying to create turfs by labeling in this way.


It was not me doing that, regardless of how you see it. That is what I am trying to AVOID, I am trying to get people to see that this can be a good venture, but the polarization has already been made and does NOTHING to try to get those who don’t know what we are doing to realize that it can be pretty cool. By attempting to answer people’s questions instead of taking criticism to mean that those who have criticized are trying to destroy the gamers effort, I think we can actually get a few people to see that this is pretty cool I will post a couple paragraphs form a pm from a gamers leader here, author anonymous, I'm not sure if that's unacceptable or not:

“I have endured BS on this forum for 2 years and really could care less what someone on this forum thinks of me or my leadership skills. One thing every real leader knows is you cannot lead someone who refuses to follow. That is bloomilk. I am not try to solve anything here at this site and never will try to do so again.”

“At this point I am looking into my own squad building program and then I will be done with this site. You guys can be as critical as you wish. Like I said when you have an idea on how to improve the process that doesnt mean grinding it to a halt let me know. Otherwise we will continue plugging along. If people dont like my attitude then maybe they should look in the mirror. After taking 2 years of nothing but rudeness, meaness from the bloomilk community why should I give a s***. One day someone on this sight will realize that if you want to be involved in a process try not insulting the son of a bitch making the decisions all the time.”

I think it’s pretty obvious that any discontent is viewed by this leader as being against the whole effort.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
2. It's very, very important for you and everyone else here to understand that there are exactly THREE people on the design team. We have people advising us and giving us playtest feedback. Some of those are privy to everything the three of us are doing. Most are not. So your entire rant here is aimed at people who - at best - operate at an advisory level. Aside from me, I don't believe there has been any posting by anyone from the design team. We just don't have time for that, between our jobs and doing this volunteer project and personal life stuff.


Regardless of the status of being on the design team, I am fairly sure that all of the statements in my first post came from people whose name colors over here show that they are community leaders. I think it’s unfair to accuse me of starting a forum war when the leaders here often act without leadership to people over there.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
3. I can't find where anyone told you to leave if you didn't like how the v-set was being handled. Maybe I missed something, or something was said to you privately that I am not privy to. All I have seen that was said is that your ideas were already considered, and this is the way the few of us who developed this project decided to go with it. We don't want this project simmering on a burner for an extra year while we hammer out even one piece that requires 250 people to compromise on a single decision.


Why do the 250 have to agree? Whoever said that? How does involving the community in the design of a piece mean putting them in charge of it? Are you beginning to see how this repeated attitude and exaggeration might be frustrating to anyone trying to get more community input involve?

As for the “With us or against us” here’s a few times it came up:
“Simply if you dont like the Virtual Set dont use it. If you have a problem with what the design team does then dont use the V-Set.”

“Now you are upset at the process of creating the set. Well sorry it is what it is. Dont like it then dont use it.”


This attitude is definitely the most frustrating. Any criticism results in a response like that, at least from at least one of the main leaders here. No one has answered me the half dozen or so times I’ve asked this question, but might as well ask it again. How is the “with us or against us” attitude good for this effort?

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
4. Finally, you didn't expect WotC to share their work with you before it came out, and you bought it anyway. We are offering this FOR FREE, and with a lot more thought, effort, and interest than WotC had in it. And you can't trust us? Well that is your decision. Nothing anyone says will change it, and further arguing with you about it only detracts from what we're doing.


It shouldn’t have to detract from anything (see first post as to why the leadership response got that one off on the wrong foot (admittedly I kept it on that foot for a while)). Actually providing rationales and justifications for action would only lend legitimacy to what you’re doing, but instead all we get are the responses to which I reffered in the first post. It would probably take much less time to explain than to say those things above anyway.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Well frankly at this point, its clear you just want to argue and flame, so I'm done discussing it. It makes me laugh when you say you're not the one doing it, but then your post is full of turf labels and criticisms. To quote one of my favorite tv lines:

That which is inconvenient, you ignore. That which you do not know, you invent.

I will no longer encourage your behavior with more replies, so there's really no need. If you are serious about settling disputes, well I can tell you that honestly you have gone about it in completely the wrong way, pretty much from the very beginning.

You give as good as you get.

Author:  jonnyb815 [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Just drop It.

Your points are going no where and to be frank I really dont care. The way you have tried to make your points was not needed and just was not the right way to go about whatever you had planed.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

Azavander wrote:
@motti
What I don't understand is why you are making all the time and effort to causing a ruckus?


This is just another example of how ANY discontent is seen as at best just stirring the pot, at worst trying to destroy everything involved with the effort.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting along with bloomilk

I have cut this down as far as I can. I do not want to argue for the heck of it. I do not want to destroy this effort. I do not want to take over the design. I do not want to flame (I don;t see where I did here anywhere, the closest was when I said dean's posts at bloomilk are bad for this effort) I tried asking many of these questions in the first post but people just come after me. Please stick to the issues, perhaps one of the issues is that the issues are ignored and responses to my posts are exaggerated and have nothing to do with the issues.

1. Why is “with us or against us” what is continually being preached? How is that good?
2. Why is the idea of minor involvement continually blown up into “everyone on every aspect’?
3. Why is this such a bad idea?:
Almost immediately after the set list is finalized (making it for this set probably unreasonable), ONE (1) figure name is released and in an official thread here on Gamers, people weigh in on what they would like to see this figure do, and one week (or whatever) is allowed for input. The designers peruse through (or look at a simplified form that someone volunteers to type up for them), and see if there's anything they want to use, perhaps there's something that many people want and wouldn't be too broken, or perhaps there's literally nothing of use. Regardless, the community had a chance to get input on the actual design. It's up to them to provide a good engough idea to be accepted, nad regardess of what is accepted, they would have been involved. It's really not that different from the character or special ability request threads here, except it's more specific, in a later design stage, and for a much more limited amount of time.
EDIT:
4. Why is my request to try to: work more with bloomilk rather than tell them that the design team knows exactly what it's doing and if you don't like it, don't join in, turned into me calling for a forum war?

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