billiv15 wrote:
It isn't, and characterizing it as such just creates more dissension and fighting. You've already been informed of some of the bloomilk history, and we have many people working on the set in many fashions.
I think if you think that then you are being overly generous to dnemillers comments:
“Simply if you dont like the Virtual Set dont use it. If you have a problem with what the design team does then dont use the V-Set.”
“Now you are upset at the process of creating the set. Well sorry it is what it is. Dont like it then dont use it.”
How are these good comments? Shouldn’t it be “if you don’t like what we’re doing, go over to gamers and post ideas in the forum to help us do it better,” or something similar. Why is dean so against people trying to help when that help comes in the form of disagreement? (I’ve asked him myself, but he has never answered that question) . He basically just says “there you go with the leadership issue again,” but never actually addresses it.
billiv15 wrote:
We already have a lot of involvement. No more is needed at this specific time. To ignore what has been done already, is to say that something is wrong, when most people do not think there are problems with the system as is.
That might have something to do with suggestions for more input (such as the idea I have below) are treated as asking for everyone being involved on every aspect. Refer to this thread alone for several examples of that. There is no opportunity for even allowing to discuss opportunity for more input because those requests are blown up into calling for a total community effort on all 60 pieces.
billiv15 wrote:
Well, that too isn't what has been said. The design team of the project were chosen for various reasons. As it is, the funniest thing about your question is that as of yet, I've not seen a single idea mentioned on any of the three sites that was not already discussed by the designers. So, if a ton of serious ideas are being missed, I sure as hell am not seeing it.
You might have missed this in a post on Bloomilk: “You said "very disheartening that you equate the design team having discussed the issue with the issue having been fully and thoroughly discussed." Well I'm very sorry to hear that you have that little faith in the design team. Do you think you're THAT much more intelligent than ALL of the design team, that no one thought of the idea of using Ani FS instead of Exar?”
Regardless of whether anything has been found to be wanting for change yet (if you want to debate about that I might be up for it in another thread), your statement seems to indicate that you think that there is literally nothing important that the design team couldn’t think of. The next point is where we are discussing whether allowing for input actually harms anything.
billiv15 wrote:
Because asking for change sets a very dangerous precedent, one that no one who thinks it through would really want to occur. Imagine if the designers released the set, then started changing things willy nilly based on feedback. It would never work. You will have to accept like everyone else that you won't like certain things, but that they are not going to be changed after the fact. That's the nature of the response.
I was never talking about after the set was released. It is not released now. There is no after the fact because it is simply NOT after the fact. It’s pretty awful that those in charge seem to be wanting to hold back criticism until the set is released BECAUSE it’s too late to change anything then. I don’t expect that every whim be changed. Heck, I have no use for the Sith Acolyte, it’s just not my style, but I’m not calling for a re-do. The issue is that as soon as a preview is given, some of the people in charge over here, design team or not, say automatically that nothing will be changed save for typos. It’s an opportunity to get into discussion and justification and legitimization, but instead it’s take it or leave it.
billiv15 wrote:
Well it's not a terrible idea actually. It has it's faults, but things like this are in the general plans. Like for example, having the Gencon champ design a mini. But to do this in the way you've laid it out, it is a very bad idea. The problem is, that the community at large cannot know the entire set, the design goals, future plans, etc, and therefore cannot fit a mini into the larger context. I understand not everyone recognizes how important those things are in design, but they really are critical components, almost more so than any stat set put together.
That’s why it be done immediately after the characters are selected. That’s why it be just be a place to make suggestions. That’s why the suggestions can be adapted into any context that may have already existed, and if there are no adaptable ideas, they must all be refused.
billiv15 wrote:
In short, if the designers want to do something like this (I really doubt they want the headache), they could, but it's up to them, and them alone. Demanding that such happens just because you personally don't get why they wouldn't want to is insulting and irritating.
I don’t think something being a headache is reason enough not to do it. I’m sure they thought many of the threads in this forum were a headache as well. If the design team doesn’t answer, who is supposed to answer? If community involvement is worth doing, shouldn’t it be discussed as to how much should be done?
billiv15 wrote:
Um no, and that most certainly has not been the case. The designers have not even posted outside of Boris, and if I remember correctly, he hasn't responded to any criticism, just the idea that they are buying up minis to make money. This is a non-sequitur.
This has a lot to do with the #1. When telling dnemiller that I thought his posts of take it or leave it do nothing positive in terms of leading this effort, he says that he won’t try to be a leader because they won’t follow. Maybe if something worth following (like an attitude towards improvement rather than polarization), there will be more people latching on to this effort that has a chance to be much better than wizards or the SWCCGPC ever did. Whether dnemiller is a designer or not, what good does the polarization do? (How are his comments not polarization, BTW?)
I understand if you don’t want to keep posting on it, but it would be nice to actually talk about it rather then accuse me of describing incidents that never happened, when it’s pretty clear (EDIT: at least to me) they did. Maybe it wasn;t all from you (most of it wasn’t actually), but the postings of the many leaders here over on bloomilk give no one any reason to come over here from there and join in.