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Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
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Author:  dnemiller [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
Ok guys so I am going to change the restricted list. No the current list is not wrong.

May 31st Wizards is out and customs are in.

So give me your thoughts. I am adding in 4 custom maps to the restricted list to give a nice round number of 10 total.

If you list maps that are not balanced or list maps that are just from your favorite map designer then I am not going to pay much attention. If you want to have a chance to give me some of your thoughts on some well balanced maps and why I should consider them then by all means let me know because that is what I am looking for.

Input gentlemen give me your input!!!!
Author:  Darth_Jim [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
The Desert Sanctum by Chris West; Mustafar by Armored Gear 7; Offworld Shipping Center by Chris West; Theed by Matt Francella
Author:  thereisnotry [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
Swamp Caves is excellent and was really improved in response to some constructive criticism from some Tier 1 players and map critics (Fingers, Nickname, etc) right before publication. It has all the things we're looking for in competitive maps: good melee advancement, enclosed gambit, balanced starting areas, etc. It also adds a tactical element to squad-building and meta-analysis, since it has no doors and thus eliminates the value of override on this map...and when many squads are packing double/triple override right now, that can be a significant factor. Anything to help diversify the meta is a good thing, right?

Theed has long been one of my favorites. It's probably one of the most balanced maps we have, IMHO. It also has all the things we're looking for in a competitive map (see above).

Offworld Shipping Center is quite a bit more open than the others, but it has a number of good options for melee advancement. Controlling the doors into the gambit area is important, but not all-important, since the gambit area is open to characters moving through the open hallways. I'm a little bit concerned about stalemate situations on this map, where both players get their squads set up as they want them by round 2 or 3, and then it's a waiting game, where the first person to strike often pays a steep price. But we already have that dynamic with a couple of other maps on the Restricted list anyway, such as Ravaged Base or Rancor Pit.

These 3 were the first to come to my mind when you said that you'd be adding 4 fan-made maps to the Restricted list. [GREAT NEWS, by the way!]

As for the 4th suggestion, I agree with AG7's Mustafar. It's a melee fig's dream. Also, it's not terribly friendly to Huge figs, which is a welcome thing, since the K-Town tourney results show 3 Luke's Snowspeeder squads in the top 4. Please, please, no SS dominance again! Please!!!! "Help us Dean Miller, you're our only hope. Help us Dean Miller...."

Alternatively, I'd like to also suggest AG7's Smuggler's Base map. I see a lot of people playing it (so it's popular, which says something). It has a great layout, and it's quite balanced. The major problem is that it isn't widely available, (ie, not part of the JC mappacks or Mr. West's production and shipping), and for that reason I'd rather see Mustafar get the nod. I'd rather not have maps on the Restricted List that are not readily available..but if something can be done about that, then I think Smuggler's Base could be a solid contender.
Author:  jonnyb815 [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
if you need a map PM I shoud be able to lead you in the right direction.
I have not played on the custom maps enough with top level squads to say much. I do like smuggers base but like TINT said not many have it.

So Mustafar,Theed, and I have not played on the others enough. I dont really like Wests starship maps for top level play.
I dont ahve Desert Sanctum but from the few games I have played on it have been good.
Author:  dalsiandon [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
Darth_Jim wrote:
The Desert Sanctum by Chris West; Mustafar by Armored Gear 7; Offworld Shipping Center by Chris West; Theed by Matt Francella


I can't argue with this. THe desert sanctum is the only one I question, I'd perfer to have the ruined temple on Yavin from MEM instead. I'm talking about the one on the back of the map with the office building (it's almost like a port authority kind of office) and the security station. But if hte 4 jim has mentioned are the ones that make it, you'd hear no argument from me.
Author:  LoboStele [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
The Yavin IV Ruined Temple map is a BAD one for high-end competitive play, IMO. Too similar to Death Star in terms of the Gambit zone. Players will end up hiding behind walls on opposite sides of the gambit zone, with neither player engaging. Now, the older Yavin IV Sanctuary is a bit better, IMO. I wouldn't be terribly upset if one or both of those ended up on the Restricted List, but I think these two are more 'Standard' maps. And I LOVE both of them, so I'm speaking purely in terms of playing on them.

To some degree, I'm concerned about the same thing for the Desert Sanctum as well. Sanctum also seems to be an EXTREMELY wide open map, which will lend to nasty Snowspeeder abuse. However, I'm mostly OK with Sanctum I think. I like the pit in the center of the map, which might make it a great map for Push squads to utilize. And I like TINT's point about there being no doors on it, which would be interesting against Rebel ERC/multiple Override builds and such. Plus, I don't have that map yet, and really haven't played on it or studied it all that much, so until I do, I can't really form a fully solid opinion of it.


I would vote 100% for Offworld Shipping Center. That map is fantastic. Even if there are some minor stalemate issues due to the corners around the gambit zone, there are REALLY easy ways to work around that and come at your opponent from multiple angles and force them to engage. IMO, there's enough going on with this map that it's pretty tough to turtle too much. I think this one is a good compromise for shooters/melee. We really need some maps that have open spaces that melee pieces need to cross. The 12 or so squares across the gambit area of this one is small enough to not give shooters a huge advantage, but I think it does give the shooters a slight edge over other maps, say like Ruined Base.

Anchorhead from MP2 would be another one that I'd vote for. I think it's got some great shooting lanes, but has relatively protected approaches from both sides as well.

There's one or two of the MEM desert maps that might make good ones. The map with the large building in the middle is particularly decent.

Other ones for consideration might be Felucia from MP1, or the Ugnaught Mines from MP2, and Chris West's Dagobah map (that one's a tad open, but has nice protected gambit, and good approach lanes).
Author:  Dark_Jedi_21 [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
I really like the Exodus Heavy Crusier map from Chris West. It has protected start areas for both sides and protected ways to approach either side. Gambit is a little open but I have not had a problem with it.
I feel like Desert Sanctum is a little to open for my tastes after playing on it. I do like the Offword Shipping Center and the AG7 Mustafar and Theed as well.
Author:  thereisnotry [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
Ooops! I just realized something after reading Lobo's post: when I was talking about Desert Sanctum, I was really meaning to refer to the Swamp Caves (aka Dagobah) map by Chris West instead. (New maps and their unfamiliar names, and all....) That was the one that had some good alterations made before publication, and that was the one with protected/enclosed gambit, and it was the one that had some solid melee approach paths. And there's also a lack of doors on this map, which as I said before, is a very good thing for the meta.

D'oh! :oops: I'm sorry for the confusion. I've edited my above post.

And for the record, I'd actually be very much against having the Desert Sanctum map added to the Restricted list. IMHO, it's far too open, and it's a Snowspeeder's paradise because of the wide-open spaces and long shooting lanes. For competitive play I love Swamp Caves and Offworld Shipping Center, but definitely not Desert Sanctum...I'd rather have the Exodus Class Courier ship over the Desert Sanctum...and IMHO the Exodus map is too open too.


EDIT: And while I'm at it, I agree with Lobo on his analysis of AG7's Yavin IV maps...I think they're visual masterpieces, but probably a bit too open and non-engagement-oriented for competitive play.
Author:  LoboStele [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
thereisnotry wrote:
Ooops! I just realized something after reading Lobo's post: when I was talking about Desert Sanctum, I was really meaning to refer to the Swamp Caves (aka Dagobah) map by Chris West instead. (New maps and their unfamiliar names, and all....) That was the one that had some good alterations made before publication, and that was the one with protected/enclosed gambit, and it was the one that had some solid melee approach paths. And there's also a lack of doors on this map, which as I said before, is a very good thing for the meta.

D'oh! :oops: I'm sorry for the confusion. I've edited my above post.

And for the record, I'd actually be very much against having the Desert Sanctum map added to the Restricted list. IMHO, it's far too open, and it's a Snowspeeder's paradise because of the wide-open spaces and long shooting lanes. For competitive play I love Swamp Caves and Offworld Shipping Center, but definitely not Desert Sanctum...I'd rather have the Exodus Class Courier ship over the Desert Sanctum...and IMHO the Exodus map is too open too.


EDIT: And while I'm at it, I agree with Lobo on his analysis of AG7's Yavin IV maps...I think they're visual masterpieces, but probably a bit too open and non-engagement-oriented for competitive play.


HAhaha, OK, that makes more sense. I agree 100% with this as well then. I've not ever played on Sanctum, but I have played on Dagobah once, so I'd agree with this overall. See, I was slightly confused by the "no doors on Sanctum" comment, becuase I had thought that the shield thing was actually a door. I thought "Well, maybe since I haven't played on it, I'm just not remembering it correctly" lol. This clears it up. :P

The Exodus ship is kind of cool, and for the most part, I'd probably be OK with it getting added. There's some awesome and fun LOS across the center of the map once you get the doors in the bedrooms/secret rooms opened up. However, I feel like it's a kind of linear map, so to speak. Like all the firing lanes are straight down from one side to the other. It can be difficult to advance sometimes, so the few times I've played on it, I found that the only real strategy for doing well was to advance your squad around the map on the opposite side from your opponent until you were situated at the top and bottom, instead of the left/right. Then start advancing through the rooms and such. I don't know, YMMV. I haven't played THAT many competitive games on that one. Again, I'd probably be OK with it, but I'd prefer some of the other suggestions above before this one.
Author:  thereisnotry [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
LoboStele wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Ooops! I just realized something after reading Lobo's post: when I was talking about Desert Sanctum, I was really meaning to refer to the Swamp Caves (aka Dagobah) map by Chris West instead. (New maps and their unfamiliar names, and all....) That was the one that had some good alterations made before publication, and that was the one with protected/enclosed gambit, and it was the one that had some solid melee approach paths. And there's also a lack of doors on this map, which as I said before, is a very good thing for the meta.

D'oh! :oops: I'm sorry for the confusion. I've edited my above post.

And for the record, I'd actually be very much against having the Desert Sanctum map added to the Restricted list. IMHO, it's far too open, and it's a Snowspeeder's paradise because of the wide-open spaces and long shooting lanes. For competitive play I love Swamp Caves and Offworld Shipping Center, but definitely not Desert Sanctum...I'd rather have the Exodus Class Courier ship over the Desert Sanctum...and IMHO the Exodus map is too open too.


EDIT: And while I'm at it, I agree with Lobo on his analysis of AG7's Yavin IV maps...I think they're visual masterpieces, but probably a bit too open and non-engagement-oriented for competitive play.


HAhaha, OK, that makes more sense. I agree 100% with this as well then. I've not ever played on Sanctum, but I have played on Dagobah once, so I'd agree with this overall. See, I was slightly confused by the "no doors on Sanctum" comment, becuase I had thought that the shield thing was actually a door. I thought "Well, maybe since I haven't played on it, I'm just not remembering it correctly" lol. This clears it up. :P

The Exodus ship is kind of cool, and for the most part, I'd probably be OK with it getting added. There's some awesome and fun LOS across the center of the map once you get the doors in the bedrooms/secret rooms opened up. However, I feel like it's a kind of linear map, so to speak. Like all the firing lanes are straight down from one side to the other. It can be difficult to advance sometimes, so the few times I've played on it, I found that the only real strategy for doing well was to advance your squad around the map on the opposite side from your opponent until you were situated at the top and bottom, instead of the left/right. Then start advancing through the rooms and such. I don't know, YMMV. I haven't played THAT many competitive games on that one. Again, I'd probably be OK with it, but I'd prefer some of the other suggestions above before this one.

:lol: The Shroud of the Dark Side has lifted!

Yeah, Sanctum is NOT a good competitive map, IMHO...and this was even commented when the map was first released, and Chris West himself said (if I recall correctly) that he could see why people were saying the Sanctum wasn't ideal for competitive skirmishes.

And I do enjoy playing on the Exodus; we use it a lot in our home/local games. But as you said, there are just a bunch of super-long shooting lanes that really nerf any attempt to advance safely. And if the point of having a Restricted maplist is to help foster the most balanced and wide-open meta possible, then I think the Exodus should not be on the list. As you say, there are a number of better options for competitive play. There just aren't a lot of maps that look quite as good.
Author:  NickName [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
thereisnotry wrote:
Ooops! I just realized something after reading Lobo's post: when I was talking about Desert Sanctum, I was really meaning to refer to the Swamp Caves (aka Dagobah) map by Chris West instead.


That's pretty funny, because when I read it I was going to respond that I completely disagreed but would have completely agreed if you were talking about the other side of the poster. :P I couldn't figure out how you thought sanctum had no doors unless you'd never playted on it... Anyway, I still need to go through the JC ones to see which best meet the restricted list criteria before I post my favorites.

Sorta PS: I'm all for the basic idea, but think the timing is poo. I don't like the idea of changing the map list mid-regionals at all. In fact, I'd prefer not even changing it until after the champs. Let the WotC version of the game play itself out the August when WotC has announced the end of support. Then make a clean start for the fan-run version. What's the rush?

June 1: Terrible
July 1 or Aug 1: Undesirable but at least not terrible
Sep 1: Perfect.
Author:  thereisnotry [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
NickName wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Ooops! I just realized something after reading Lobo's post: when I was talking about Desert Sanctum, I was really meaning to refer to the Swamp Caves (aka Dagobah) map by Chris West instead.


That's pretty funny, because when I read it I was going to respond that I completely disagreed but would have completely agreed if you were talking about the other side of the poster. :P I couldn't figure out how you thought sanctum had no doors unless you'd never playted on it... Anyway, I still need to go through the JC ones to see which best meet the restricted list criteria before I post my favorites.


lol! That proves exactly what I was saying: Sanctum is wrong for competitive play, but Swamp Caves is oh so right. :lol:

Oh well, all's well that ends well.
Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
NickName wrote:

Sorta PS: I'm all for the basic idea, but think the timing is poo. I don't like the idea of changing the map list mid-regionals at all. In fact, I'd prefer not even changing it until after the champs. Let the WotC version of the game play itself out the August when WotC has announced the end of support. Then make a clean start for the fan-run version. What's the rush?

June 1: Terrible
July 1 or Aug 1: Undesirable but at least not terrible
Sep 1: Perfect.



I completely agree with Jason on this one.
Author:  TimmerB123 [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
NickName wrote:
I'm all for the basic idea, but think the timing is poo. I don't like the idea of changing the map list mid-regionals at all. In fact, I'd prefer not even changing it until after the champs. Let the WotC version of the game play itself out the August when WotC has announced the end of support. Then make a clean start for the fan-run version. What's the rush?

June 1: Terrible
July 1 or Aug 1: Undesirable but at least not terrible
Sep 1: Perfect.


I whole-heartedly and adimately agree with Jason here as well. Let's change it after GenCon.

Also (and this is my 'sorta PS') - having 10 as "a nice round number" is silly IMO. Put maps on the list because they are good for the game. If it ends up being 9, fine. If it's eleven - wonderful. Picking an arbitrary number beforehand could cause abusable maps to be included OR it could even cause great maps to be left off. Either way - don't pick an arbitrary number, even if we are a base 10 society. Include maps on their merits alone. :)
Author:  LoboStele [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
NickName wrote:

Sorta PS: I'm all for the basic idea, but think the timing is poo. I don't like the idea of changing the map list mid-regionals at all. In fact, I'd prefer not even changing it until after the champs. Let the WotC version of the game play itself out the August when WotC has announced the end of support. Then make a clean start for the fan-run version. What's the rush?

June 1: Terrible
July 1 or Aug 1: Undesirable but at least not terrible
Sep 1: Perfect.



I completely agree with Jason on this one.


I would also tend to agree with Jason and Brad here. I 100% agree that changing on June 1st is wrong. The regionals need to be standardized. And I can certainly respect the idea of letting the WOTC game run it's course. I think the 6 Restricted maps we have right now are fine as they are, and will make for an exciting event at GenCon this year that is focused around squads, and not maps. I don't think adding 4 maps to that will necessarily hurt or help it all that much in terms of the fun factor. So, if pressed for a specific answer, I would definitely vote for Sep 1st, then July 1st, with an absolute 'no' against Jun 1st or Aug 1st.
Author:  dnemiller [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
well that is fine but if I were I would check that August support date before throwing out there.

Maybe that is what you are being told on your end Jason but that is not what I have been told ont he DCI end. May 31st support for Star Wars comes crashing down.
Author:  thereisnotry [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
Okay, so support for SWM comes crashing down on May 31, which means we can add fan-made maps into the list as of June 1. But can does not equal should, and I think that's what a bunch of the people are saying. Personally, I'd love to have the new maps added at any time, but I can certainly see why people would prefer to hold off on adding new maps until after Gencon is over. Basically, after May 31 we can do whatever we want, whenever we want...it looks like a number of people are saying that we do our doings on September 1.

Is there something else with regard to timing that we need to consider as part of this discussion?

[Personally, I'm just excited that we finally get to add these awesome fan-made maps!]
Author:  NickName [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
dnemiller wrote:
well that is fine but if I were I would check that August support date before throwing out there.

Maybe that is what you are being told on your end Jason but that is not what I have been told ont he DCI end. May 31st support for Star Wars comes crashing down.


Certainly possible. My date comes from the public announcement from marketing only. DCI 'going rogue' isn't something I'd bet against.

I can't imagine the DCI software itself will stop working for local tourneys as it doesn't require net connection. So it should be usable (without reporting and updating ratings) forever as far as I know. Until we have something fan made (if fans still care about ratings?) it should do the job.

And then maps and the rules themselves are an entirely different argument as noted by others above. My desire as a player is for rule and map stability through the tourney season regardless of WotC's level of support. I like being able to compare apples to apples across regionals in particular and barring some problem exposed that threatens the championship that the playing field remains stable for the championship itself.
Author:  dnemiller [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
NickName wrote:
dnemiller wrote:
well that is fine but if I were I would check that August support date before throwing out there.

Maybe that is what you are being told on your end Jason but that is not what I have been told ont he DCI end. May 31st support for Star Wars comes crashing down.


Certainly possible. My date comes from the public announcement from marketing only. DCI 'going rogue' isn't something I'd bet against.

I can't imagine the DCI software itself will stop working for local tourneys as it doesn't require net connection. So it should be usable (without reporting and updating ratings) forever as far as I know. Until we have something fan made (if fans still care about ratings?) it should do the job.

And then maps and the rules themselves are an entirely different argument as noted by others above. My desire as a player is for rule and map stability through the tourney season regardless of WotC's level of support.



DCI is going under as of may 31.

I have known this for a while and gamers has been taking steps to prepare for this. As far as using the DCI Reporter to pair yes currently that will continue to work. We are currently working on a reporting system and ratings system that will transfer DCI over to Gamers. For the guy playing he will not notice much of a change except where he goes to look at the ratings..
Author:  NickName [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
TimmerB123 wrote:
Also (and this is my 'sorta PS') - having 10 as "a nice round number" is silly IMO. Put maps on the list because they are good for the game. If it ends up being 9, fine. If it's eleven - wonderful. Picking an arbitrary number beforehand could cause abusable maps to be included OR it could even cause great maps to be left off. Either way - don't pick an arbitrary number, even if we are a base 10 society. Include maps on their merits alone. :)


I plan to use your analysis from the original restricted list thread as my basis for which maps make good additions. You broke down my thought process into simple but concrete terms. :)
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