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 Post subject: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:40 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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The Dark Side crew decided to adjust WotC's Luke Skywalker cards so the stats and abilities more accurately reflected the character as he progressed chronologically through the movies and EU. Luke's Snowspeeder, Luke and Yoda, Grandmaster Luke, and Luke Force Spirit were not re-done because we felt they were already pretty good, and thus served as guideposts for our costing/stat modifications.

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This card has the following upgrades: +20 Hit Points, Flight, Force Renewal, Greater Jedi Mind Trick

The following were removed: 5 Cost Points

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This card has the following upgrades:+10 Hit Points, Pilot, Mobile Attack, Grappling Hook, Blast the Control Panel, Blaster Barrage, Lightsaber Deflect

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This card has the following upgrades:+2 Defense, Mobile Attack, Use the Force

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This card has the following upgrades: Lightsaber +10

The following were removed:Accurate Shot, Careful Shot +4, 9 Cost Points

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This card has the following upgrades:+8 Cost Points, 10 Hit Points*, +1 Defense*, +2 Attack*, Mobile Attack, Recon, Lightsaber +10

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This card has the following upgrades:+4 Cost Points, Double Attack, Mobile Attack, Loner

The following were removed: 1 Force Point

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This card has the following upgrades:+6 Cost Points, +30 Hit Points*, +2 Defense*, +3 Attack*, Mobile Attack, Impulsive Advance, Force Renewal, Force Leap, Lightsaber Defense, Use the Force

The following were removed: 2 Force Points, Blaster Barrage, Lightsaber Sweep

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This card has the following upgrades: +17 Cost Points, +20 Hit Points*, +1 Defense*, +3 Attack*, Mobile Attack, Djem So Style, Force Renewal, Force Disarm, Lightsaber Defense, Use the Force

The following were removed: 2 Force Points, Lightsaber Deflect, Force Alter

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This card has the following upgrades:+11 Cost Points, +10 Hit Points*, +1 Defense*, +2 Hit Points*, Mobile Attack, Daring Rescue, Force Alter, Force Leap, Lightsaber Defense, Use the Force

The following were removed: Knight Speed, Lightsaber Block, Lightsaber Deflect

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This card has the following upgrades: +17 Cost Points, +40 Hit Points*, +1 Defense*, +4 Attack*, Pilot, Endangering the Mission, Force Renewal, Force Alter, Use the Force

We removed the following: 2 Force Points

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This card has the following upgrades: +20 Cost Points, +20 Hit Points*, +2 Defense*, +3 Attack*, Greater Mobile Attack, Djem So Style, Redemption, Force Renewal, Surprise Move, Dark Temptation, Lightsaber Defense

The following were removed: 1 Force Point, Force Leap, Lightsaber Sweep

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This card has the following upgrades: +1 Cost Point, +10 Hit Points*, +1 Defense*, +1 Attack*, Affinity, Daring Rescue, Whirlwind Attack, Lightsaber Defense

The following were removed: Force Alter, Force Leap, Lightsaber Deflect

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This card has the following upgrades: Lightsaber Defense, Lightsaber Assault, Master of the Force 2, AND...we reversed the figure so his right hand is gloved

The following were removed: Lightsaber Block, Lightsaber Deflect, Lightsaber Sweep

*Stat increases reflect this particular version of Luke in our timeline.


Anyway, let me know if they look good or if they need some tweaking. We're considering adjusting some cards with a few powers from the last set. Maybe some "Impulsive" abilities, like Impulsive Twin Attack or Impulsive Sweep or Impulsive Force Renewal?

For a complete breakdown of our reasoning behind our changes, you can visit a dedicated board at The Star Wars Custom Miniature Database.


You can find our custom cards here:

DARK SIDE's Custom Minis Thread

Some cards have been updated recently after play testing, so check it out.

DC


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:04 am 
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I really like the idea of the grappling hook ability--it's a cool way to reference one of the most iconic images from the movies; it has some cool potential strategic uses; and unlike Tow Cable, it actually kinda makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:16 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I really like the progression. It does very well represent the character most times. Only thing I think could be changed was removing Force Renewal from LotLS and have it start with HPU. Other than that, some nice and innovate new abilities (Daring Rescue is very interesting, I almost feel it should be a "replaces attacks" type thing instead of just "on this character's turn" since it is pretty powerful).


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:59 am 
Third Jedi from the Left
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buttcabbge wrote:
I really like the idea of the grappling hook ability--it's a cool way to reference one of the most iconic images from the movies; it has some cool potential strategic uses; and unlike Tow Cable, it actually kinda makes sense.


Thanks, Buttcabbge! We worked pretty hard to make abilities that really reflected Luke's character throughout his story.

jedispyder wrote:
I really like the progression. It does very well represent the character most times. Only thing I think could be changed was removing Force Renewal from LotLS and have it start with HPU. Other than that, some nice and innovate new abilities (Daring Rescue is very interesting, I almost feel it should be a "replaces attacks" type thing instead of just "on this character's turn" since it is pretty powerful).


Jedi, thanks for the review! Since we took Accurate Shot and Careful Shot +4 away from LotLS, we were reticent to remove Force Renewal. We didn't want to make him unplayable compared to the WotC version. What's HPU?

DC


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:02 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Those are logical reasons, makes sense.

HPU=Hoth Pilot Unleashed


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:09 am 
Third Jedi from the Left
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jedispyder wrote:
Those are logical reasons, makes sense.

HPU=Hoth Pilot Unleashed


At one point we considered just re-creating all the characters, keeping nothing from the originals. But lately we've been more interested in modifying the originals to keep them playable. I agree that Force Renewal should've really started with HPU. :ATAT:


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:37 am 
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Nice choices all around! It does give a sense of growth and progression through the series. My only doubt, comes not from the progression, but from an actual play issue - and that's giving out UTF so liberally. Several of these pieces would end up broken at that cost with UTF added. In particular, Luke RC seems problematic (cunning, GMA, UTF could become a very unfortunate combo). I'd also question Luke HoY at that cost reduction gaining it, together with flurry and all the other stuff still present on him. My other issue, is I don't buy Young Jedi having Djem so. But that's not a game play issue, it's a should he or shouldn't he issue at that time in his career.

With that said, "Dark Temptation" is an excellent choice for Jedi, Impulsive Advance on Dagobah is cool, and I really like "Grappling Hook" and "Blast the Control Panel" although I would rename the latter to something a little less clunky.

Good job guys, really like the work overall.

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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:16 am 
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I agree with Bill about Unleash the Force being a bit too much on some of these.

Other than that Im not so sure about Rebel and Hero of Yavin needing Lightsaber Deflect. At that point in his career he had spent maybe a couple days (however long it takes to get from Tatooine to Alderaan ) training against a remote, and not using the saber otherwise.

Very nice work though. I really like alot of these, and you give them a nice sense of progression from one to the other that is really lacking at times in the stuff that wotc released.

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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:37 am 
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I posted a Luke, Rebel a couple of months back a used Grappling Hook similarly worded to Tow Cable except it didn't grant Flight. I'd looked at these this morning and thought yours had been worded exactly like Tow Cable and began coming up with suggestions so that it was slightly different but still contained Flight (as losing it on mine was a canonical error).

Yours is pretty much with I came up with except I had it replacing attacks. It's a tough call, but I think it provides a slightly more challenging variety to the movement breakers. As it is now, I think most players would still opt for Levitate at the extra 7 points, expecially if the already have ERC's or other door control.

With "replaces attacks" it would allow interactions such as activating figure A and moving 6 squares past Luke. Luke can then move adjacent and Grapple 6 more squares. 18 squares of movement at the cost of both figures being activated, is a nice option in the movement breaker category. Then on the next round, they can activate Luke, grapple both characters 6, then Luke can move to safety while you activate Figure A to put on some damage.

Just my two cents, it would need to be tested to see if it changes his cost any or is just too good.

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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:24 am 
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Cool stuff guys. I really like the new abilities, and Grappling Hook and Daring Rescue in particular are nice movement breakers. In the Rebel faction, you'd basically get one of those OR Levitation, so the trade off is nice, and not overpowered. The one that would worry me is Luke COTF in a NR squad, as they don't really need anymore movement breakers on top of Ganner's Levitation right now, IMO. A lot of this is great stuff though. If the V Set guys decide to make a Luke at some point, they would be wise to look at some of these for ideas. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:26 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
Nice choices all around! It does give a sense of growth and progression through the series. My only doubt, comes not from the progression, but from an actual play issue - and that's giving out UTF so liberally. Several of these pieces would end up broken at that cost with UTF added. In particular, Luke RC seems problematic (cunning, GMA, UTF could become a very unfortunate combo). I'd also question Luke HoY at that cost reduction gaining it, together with flurry and all the other stuff still present on him. My other issue, is I don't buy Young Jedi having Djem so. But that's not a game play issue, it's a should he or shouldn't he issue at that time in his career.

With that said, "Dark Temptation" is an excellent choice for Jedi, Impulsive Advance on Dagobah is cool, and I really like "Grappling Hook" and "Blast the Control Panel" although I would rename the latter to something a little less clunky.

Good job guys, really like the work overall.


Thanks, Bill!

We worried about having too much UTF on the Lukes, but the argument that won the day was "He's Luke, that's what he does." What would you suggest in exchange for UTF on Luke RC and HoY? Something impulsive?

We didn't know when would be a good point to add Djem So, and basically decided that he must've learned it from Yoda. We actually are considering adding it to Luke CotF, which would make sense. When do you suppose he should gain it, from a timeline perspective?

What do you suggest for the "Blast the Control Panel" name?

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I posted a Luke, Rebel a couple of months back a used Grappling Hook similarly worded to Tow Cable except it didn't grant Flight. I'd looked at these this morning and thought yours had been worded exactly like Tow Cable and began coming up with suggestions so that it was slightly different but still contained Flight (as losing it on mine was a canonical error).

Yours is pretty much with I came up with except I had it replacing attacks. It's a tough call, but I think it provides a slightly more challenging variety to the movement breakers. As it is now, I think most players would still opt for Levitate at the extra 7 points, expecially if the already have ERC's or other door control.

With "replaces attacks" it would allow interactions such as activating figure A and moving 6 squares past Luke. Luke can then move adjacent and Grapple 6 more squares. 18 squares of movement at the cost of both figures being activated, is a nice option in the movement breaker category. Then on the next round, they can activate Luke, grapple both characters 6, then Luke can move to safety while you activate Figure A to put on some damage.

Just my two cents, it would need to be tested to see if it changes his cost any or is just too good.


We appreciate the feedback! We haven't playtested any of these stats yet. When we do, "replaces attacks" will definitely be an option.

LoboStele wrote:
Cool stuff guys. I really like the new abilities, and Grappling Hook and Daring Rescue in particular are nice movement breakers. In the Rebel faction, you'd basically get one of those OR Levitation, so the trade off is nice, and not overpowered. The one that would worry me is Luke COTF in a NR squad, as they don't really need anymore movement breakers on top of Ganner's Levitation right now, IMO. A lot of this is great stuff though. If the V Set guys decide to make a Luke at some point, they would be wise to look at some of these for ideas. :)


Thanks, Lobo!!! The reason for the Affinity is obvious: that version of Luke happened after the Rebellion had won, so...

Are you sure the NR doesn't need all the help it can get? That faction is pretty light on the development side. I'd like to see more squads than just those with Ganner.

Disturbed1 wrote:
I agree with Bill about Unleash the Force being a bit too much on some of these.

Other than that Im not so sure about Rebel and Hero of Yavin needing Lightsaber Deflect. At that point in his career he had spent maybe a couple days (however long it takes to get from Tatooine to Alderaan ) training against a remote, and not using the saber otherwise.

Very nice work though. I really like alot of these, and you give them a nice sense of progression from one to the other that is really lacking at times in the stuff that wotc released.


Thanks, Disturbed! Yeah, we weren't sure about LS Deflect, but he HAD trained with the remote, and given his quick progress through the Jedi training, we figured he was a fast learner. I mean, he IS Luke Skywalker, right? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:58 am 
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Yeah, I kinda guessed exactly those reasons :)

Ok, let's see.
Luke HoY - UTF makes sense on the character, but his cost needs to go up to pay for his internal synergy. Think about it, with a Force Spirit, this guy can make a UTF attack/twin, flurry atk/twin, double UTF atk/twin, flurry/twin. If he manages a 19/20 on any of those 6 extra attacks, he can gain more. (51% chance of critting on 19/20 with 6 rolls, 27% if you remove deadly). Add in a Chagrin and that's a base potencial of 240 dmg from a 20ish piece. Too much.

I don't Luke should have djem so until after the first fight with Vader. I think that's the time frame he is supposed to have studied his Father's style and copied it.

As for Blast the Control Panel - Call it, "Blast the Controls". I think that would work.

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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:40 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Yeah, I kinda guessed exactly those reasons :)

Ok, let's see.
Luke HoY - UTF makes sense on the character, but his cost needs to go up to pay for his internal synergy. Think about it, with a Force Spirit, this guy can make a UTF attack/twin, flurry atk/twin, double UTF atk/twin, flurry/twin. If he manages a 19/20 on any of those 6 extra attacks, he can gain more. (51% chance of critting on 19/20 with 6 rolls, 27% if you remove deadly). Add in a Chagrin and that's a base potencial of 240 dmg from a 20ish piece. Too much.

I don't Luke should have djem so until after the first fight with Vader. I think that's the time frame he is supposed to have studied his Father's style and copied it.

As for Blast the Control Panel - Call it, "Blast the Controls". I think that would work.


i have to agree with BIll on Luke HOY. That can be way to powerful of a synergy, especially with twin attack also. althoughi do think evade would fit the character also. i know he can get it from rieekan, but its still nice to give a character its own abillities.

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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:46 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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UTF on Luke HoY definitely deserves a cost increase. Last year at GenCon I had someone attack my full health GMY and crit 4 times on me. Seriously, it was horrible. Yoda hadn't even had a chance to attack yet and Luke killed him in one activation (I of course failed my Lightsaber Defense roll).

One thing I was thinking on, Luke JM should probably have Djem-So (maybe even Djem-So Style Mastery). He can't be a Jedi Master without a Lightsaber Style ;)


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:55 am 
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jedispyder wrote:
UTF on Luke HoY definitely deserves a cost increase. Last year at GenCon I had someone attack my full health GMY and crit 4 times on me. Seriously, it was horrible. Yoda hadn't even had a chance to attack yet and Luke killed him in one activation (I of course failed my Lightsaber Defense roll).

One thing I was thinking on, Luke JM should probably have Djem-So (maybe even Djem-So Style Mastery). He can't be a Jedi Master without a Lightsaber Style ;)


What would you replace UtF with on the Luke HoY?

I agree that Luke JM should have Djem So Mastery.

Thanks, Spider!!!


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:04 am 
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billiv15 wrote:

Luke HoY - UTF makes sense on the character, but his cost needs to go up to pay for his internal synergy. Think about it, with a Force Spirit, this guy can make a UTF attack/twin, flurry atk/twin, double UTF atk/twin, flurry/twin. If he manages a 19/20 on any of those 6 extra attacks, he can gain more. (51% chance of critting on 19/20 with 6 rolls, 27% if you remove deadly). Add in a Chagrin and that's a base potencial of 240 dmg from a 20ish piece. Too much.

I don't Luke should have djem so until after the first fight with Vader. I think that's the time frame he is supposed to have studied his Father's style and copied it.

As for Blast the Control Panel - Call it, "Blast the Controls". I think that would work.


So maybe remove Deadly Attack instead of UtF? And then increase the cost in addition to that?

We figured that the Luke Young Jedi was the Luke entering Jabba's palace. That's why he has Djem So. Luke Jedi is him fighting on Jabba's barge. And Luke Jedi Knight is Luke confronting Vader at the end of ROTJ. Does that make sense?

Blast the Controls! works!!!


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:07 am 
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Well, I don't think the issue is that he doesn't deserve to have UTF, I think the issue is that he should have his cost increased a bit instead of lowering it. Cause in a single round, with the typical GMA from Rieeken/TBSV, he could make a minimum of 6 attacks after using UtF so he should be costed at the regular 35 or more. Granted he is only at a +8 attack, but the potential is still huge.


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:11 am 
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DarthJawa wrote:
i have to agree with BIll on Luke HOY. That can be way to powerful of a synergy, especially with twin attack also. althoughi do think evade would fit the character also. i know he can get it from rieekan, but its still nice to give a character its own abillities.


I agree about giving the characters their own abilities. One of the reasons we gave all the Lukes some form of mobile attack was to up the cost of Rieekan from the back-end by paying for the ability twice.


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:13 am 
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jedispyder wrote:
Well, I don't think the issue is that he doesn't deserve to have UTF, I think the issue is that he should have his cost increased a bit instead of lowering it. Cause in a single round, with the typical GMA from Rieeken/TBSV, he could make a minimum of 6 attacks after using UtF so he should be costed at the regular 35 or more. Granted he is only at a +8 attack, but the potential is still huge.


I'm thinking remove Deadly attack, change twin to impulsive twin attack, and increasing the cost by +6. What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: The Luke Project
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:25 pm 
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DarthChaos wrote:
jedispyder wrote:
Well, I don't think the issue is that he doesn't deserve to have UTF, I think the issue is that he should have his cost increased a bit instead of lowering it. Cause in a single round, with the typical GMA from Rieeken/TBSV, he could make a minimum of 6 attacks after using UtF so he should be costed at the regular 35 or more. Granted he is only at a +8 attack, but the potential is still huge.


I'm thinking remove Deadly attack, change twin to impulsive twin attack, and increasing the cost by +6. What do you think?


I don't think he should be less than the original in this case. I'd say try 35 to start with.

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