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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Well the sith were known for not working well together, i guess thats what they were going for when they disigned the faction. Synergy is what the sith need, and unique shooters but thats kind of tough.

Overall if this revan were real he would be T1.5 a worldwrecker but he's all alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:28 pm 
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I like him, and I understand a good but of his cost is going to come in from his fantastic CE, but have you considered how much he costs as opposed to how quickly hes gonna get his arse handed to him by Luke, GM?

Really, unless Luke misses a good number of attacks/ Defense saves/ Djem So rolls, he ought to bring down Revan every time, no matter who bases who first.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:25 pm 
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Disturbed1 wrote:
I like him, and I understand a good but of his cost is going to come in from his fantastic CE, but have you considered how much he costs as opposed to how quickly hes gonna get his arse handed to him by Luke, GM?

Really, unless Luke misses a good number of attacks/ Defense saves/ Djem So rolls, he ought to bring down Revan every time, no matter who bases who first.

That's true, but if you're talking about GMLS, then you're already not talking about Tier 1 competitive squads. :P lol

I wonder if this Revan would be a good candidate for one of the LS Styles (or Masteries?) that are floating around. Makashi Mastery could be good on him and would finally give the Sith faction a beatstick that actually has some solid survivability and defensive abilities. Oh, the dilemmas of custom card design! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:46 am 
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Makashi mastery would be really cool on him, you could drop LS defence for delfect at that point and he couldnt get djem so'd, it would also give him the free block, i really like that idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:07 am 
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I'm assuming that is after dropping the commander effect?


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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:21 am 
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lonescout wrote:
I'm assuming that is after dropping the commander effect?

Yes. The CE is very powerful, and it raises his cost significantly, to the point where the mini is nigh-unusable.

If you drop the CE and give him Makashi Mastery, I'd say he's worth around 90pts. 30 Def in cover and parry (makashi) makes for one very hard-to-kill beatstick. Not to mention, the ability to move away with Intuition if he finds himself in a bad spot. It's a lack of survivability that has hurt the Sith beatsticks so badly in the past, so this would be a refreshing change.

Or instead of dropping the CE altogether, change it. We don't want a mini like this being a follower, right? He needs a simple CE to ensure that he's not a follower. Maybe something like, "At the start of each round, 1 Sith ally may move 6 squares after initiative is determined."


It really depends on what kind of mini you want to build:
-a beatstick? If so, then maybe Makashi Mastery is the way to go, and change the CE to be minor.
-a commander? If so, then drop the JH and Intuition.
-a beatstick commander that's only competitive in 500+pt games? Then keep him as he is.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:23 pm 
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Hard to build a squad around because he's sith, then yes I agree. But I don't know how you came up with his cost by his faction because all the sith are overcosted and the fact that they have no synergy what so ever.

I don't buy into gmls not being playable. I've seen him quite a few times in regional tournaments and true he didn't win but he did well enough that you can't say he isn't playable at 200 pnts. Ganner and dodonna see to it that he is.
I would like to see Tim (timmerb123), deri (fingers and teeth), or bill play a gmls squad and see how they fare.

Now gmls vs this reven.
One on one gmls wins hands down. I'm not so sure if you actuslly built 150 and 200 pnt squads. Reven can take on all of lukes support, but Luke can't take on all of revens. His commandr effect sees to that. Luke might win the fight agains his support but he's going to be so damaged that reven can clean him up afterwards. I would still give gmls the edge but not because of him, because of ganner. Luke would have the edge because of the movement breaker he gets from ganner.

I would consider running this reven with holosid and Sion. Sion would have a hard time hitting but he would have tremendous surviveability and when he does hit nothing can be done about. ( no I would not run this if I was facing gmls). I would take shooters then and spread em out.

I'm not trying to get into an argument either I'm just trying to state my opinion.

Reven can take on lukes support but I don't think Luke could handle the firepower from revens support.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Of course GMLS is playable...even Dr. Evazan is playable. :)

What I meant was that GMLS is not Tier 1 playable. He has too many bad matchups, in which he basically has a 10% chance to win at best. Yes, he is nearly an auto-win vs the Lancer, but against almost any other well-made squad, he's in over his head. Believe me, I'd love for GMLS to be outstanding, and I really wanted to take him to a Regional...but he just can't handle the meta. He either falls too quickly to quad-shooters and Rebel cannons (esp when Lobot brings in Wicket and R5) or else his support is wiped out too easily (Yobuck especially) and then he's locked out. In either case, despite Luke being really fun to play and scary for some squads to fight against, he just can't cut it at the top. And therefore, if you're comparing a Revan squad to a GMLS squad, you're automatically not talking about Tier 1 competitive squads. That's where I was coming from.

And the reason he's not Tier 1 competitive is that he can't fit in enough support. That is exactly what I'm saying when I argue that this Revan is also too costly to be effective. GMLS is dynamite in 500pt matches (I've played a game of the Epic format with GMLS, and believe me, he's great there!), and this Revan as he stands would be dynamite at that point level too. But at 200, you just can't fit in enough support.


And as it comes to a GMLS vs Revan squad, I guess it would require building some specific squads and testing them. Would GMLS take Mara? Or Kyp? Or Zuckuss? Each of those builds would play quite differently, I'd expect. And I'm curious how a good Revan squad would be built. I expect it would include some good shooters (probably Dash, or maybe Boba Merc for double Intuition with MT), but I really don't know for sure.

Anyway, this is a good discussion...and all of it from an interesting set of custom stats; nice job, lonescout! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:04 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Of course GMLS is playable...even Dr. Evazan is playable. :)

What I meant was that GMLS is not Tier 1 playable. He has too many bad matchups, in which he basically has a 10% chance to win at best. Yes, he is nearly an auto-win vs the Lancer, but against almost any other well-made squad, he's in over his head. Believe me, I'd love for GMLS to be outstanding, and I really wanted to take him to a Regional...but he just can't handle the meta. He either falls too quickly to quad-shooters and Rebel cannons (esp when Lobot brings in Wicket and R5) or else his support is wiped out too easily (Yobuck especially) and then he's locked out. In either case, despite Luke being really fun to play and scary for some squads to fight against, he just can't cut it at the top. And therefore, if you're comparing a Revan squad to a GMLS squad, you're automatically not talking about Tier 1 competitive squads. That's where I was coming from.

And the reason he's not Tier 1 competitive is that he can't fit in enough support. That is exactly what I'm saying when I argue that this Revan is also too costly to be effective. GMLS is dynamite in 500pt matches (I've played a game of the Epic format with GMLS, and believe me, he's great there!), and this Revan as he stands would be dynamite at that point level too. But at 200, you just can't fit in enough support.


And as it comes to a GMLS vs Revan squad, I guess it would require building some specific squads and testing them. Would GMLS take Mara? Or Kyp? Or Zuckuss? Each of those builds would play quite differently, I'd expect. And I'm curious how a good Revan squad would be built. I expect it would include some good shooters (probably Dash, or maybe Boba Merc for double Intuition with MT), but I really don't know for sure.

Anyway, this is a good discussion...and all of it from an interesting set of custom stats; nice job, lonescout! :)


Seconded :)

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:31 am 
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Here's my dilemma. I really like the commander effect Revan has, and although I know it is extremely powerful, I would have to say that the sith are in desparate need of a commander that gives them a unique place in the game. Revan seems like the sith that would do that. Of course I wanted Revan to be solid beat in the process.

I almost prefer to keep this commander effect for the sith. It would take away the benefits of evade which will immediately give sith a major advantage over the Rebels to help with the rock/paper/scissors effect of the game, and secure a place for the sith in tier 1 meta. I know there are some solid builds with the sith, and I also know that Rebels are not auto-win squads, but I must say that the game could go in a very good direction with a CE like this for the sith.

The problem is how to do it without making one mini too powerful/undercosted and or too expensive to build effective squads. I have a thought, and I am just wondering what everyone else thinks of it. We could potentially give the sith a mini (maybe Bastilla Shan Sith Apprentice) with this commander effect and make the mini not so much of a solid fighter but still keep the mini's cost at an appropriate cost.

Then we could make the changes with this Revan that were mentioned above and provide the sith with an excellent beat that can actually survive pretty well, and only has a minor CE with a cost close to 85-90. This is just a thought, but some feedback would be great!


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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:33 am 
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thereisnotry and Cerous Mutor wrote:
Anyway, this is a good discussion...and all of it from an interesting set of custom stats; nice job, lonescout! :)


Thanks Thereisnotry and Cerous Mutor! I appreciate the compliment!!! :D :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:13 pm 
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He is an amazing piece as constituted but I would change hij to something that makes Sith competitive, no just create an ultra powerful character.

Sith dont have any really specific people who benefit from that CE, especially not when he is 114 points. He IS the squad. GMLS has Dodonna and Ganner to solve his playability issues. Master Tac/Intuit/Triple is good and all, one tempo controlled door controller ruins his party quickly.

I would personally drop Triple as it is a grossly overcosted power and give him Twin with Assault and Force Absorb. Revan was very powerful, but full powered Luke tore through what a dozen vong Jedi Hunters at once? Revan isnt the most powerful Jedi of all time but he was arguably the greatest tactician of all time.

I would change his CE to something more manageable, that CE will almost never almost never matter when Ugos and Lobot are the only minis he can competitively play with.

He needs to be someone who can help his FACTION because that is what he did canonically AND what he needs in SWMs.


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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:28 am 
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Nice take on it! And very true in every sense, more food for thought. We get easily confused/blinkered with different power types.
Malak was the hammer, he was the brains.

Vader was a juggernaught to Palps subtlety.

Ulic was a warrior to Exars sorcerey.

But they can all fight in some sense, its finding the flavour.

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