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 Post subject: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:34 am 
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Here is a new version of Revan.


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Last edited by lonescout on Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:41 am 
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I'm thinking his defensive abilities (22 Def/Advantageous Cover/Lightsaber Defense/MotF2/Mettle) makes him a little too hard to kill, and his CE is likely going to be unbelievably powerful so I'm trying to figure a decent price range so he's not broken, but so he's also useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Yes, he's gonna need a very high cost. In fact, 88 might be about right. :P Then again, it could be a little low; maybe 95 is closer to the mark; it's so hard to do accurate costing for characters with this many SAs and FPs. With Triple, JH, Intuition and MT, you can do 90 dmg every round, and there's really nothing your opponent can do about it. Or you can intuition out, zap 3 figs, and then walk away. That is some serious offensive potential. His defensive abilities are rock-solid (30 def in cover, LS Defense, MotF2 and Mettle, Confusion), but having only 120 hp means he still has to be careful. If his cost goes much higher than 95, I'd think he needs 140 hp, rather than 120. That being said, I like it! This is a Revan that would be lots of fun to play. And, depending on his cost, he looks like he'll be a very effective piece for the sith faction.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Yeah, with that set of abilities, plus the nasty commander effect, I think you're definitely looking at a 100+ cost figure. Imagine Darth Bane with no one being able to stop the damage he dishes out?? Ouch. Same thing with shooters like Dash Rendar (Overwhelming Attack would completely nullify your opponent's Evade). To some degree, I agree with TINT, that if you push his cost over 100, you might give him some more HP, but overall, he compares to GMLS pretty well, I think. LS Defense + MOTF2 is the same, but Revan has Mettle built in (instead of GMLS needing the 20 point Yoda FS to get it). Confusion is quite beastly (Might need to re-word it so that it goes away after somebody makes the Save 11. Might reduce the cost to 2 FPs though in that case). And Advantageous Cover could be brutal. Cad Bane would still need 14's to hit him in cover.

I like it overall though. This would be a commander that would sit towards the back and command the rest of the squad toward victory, and then if the enemy finally got to him, he'd wish they hadn't. Looks like it would be a ton of fun to play.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:41 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:08 am 
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115pt but needs a bit more HP.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:38 pm 
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I think Force Confusion needs a bit more elaboration. When it says 'is confused' what does it mean?

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:13 am 
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I like all of the feedback thusfar. I costed him at 114 mostly just to keep him differently costed than GMLS. I also added 20 Hit Points and reworded Force Confusion to make it more clear. I worded it very similar to the way force corruption is because they work very much the same way. Tell me what you think.


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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Force Confusion actually seems like it should cost only 2 force...

Especially since most force powers that cost an odd number of force points (and have that number in the name) are area affecting (Lightning, for example, is area affect in 3 and 5, and single target in 2 and 4)

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:16 am 
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I don't see a point in making a new ability like force confusion when it's the same thing as coruption, espicially when the reven we do have has a version of coruption. There's no reason to name it force confusion except to confuse people as to why it's the same as coruption except worded different. Just give him coruption and be done with it. That said I think he should cost more than gmls not less because of his commander effect alone. So what if gmls can kill him one on one. Dash or whoever else is in his squad is going to kill gmls because gmls won't be able to stop any damage from anyone else.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:07 am 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
I don't see a point in making a new ability like force confusion when it's the same thing as coruption, espicially when the reven we do have has a version of coruption. There's no reason to name it force confusion except to confuse people as to why it's the same as coruption except worded different. Just give him coruption and be done with it. That said I think he should cost more than gmls not less because of his commander effect alone. So what if gmls can kill him one on one. Dash or whoever else is in his squad is going to kill gmls because gmls won't be able to stop any damage from anyone else.


Totaly agree on this. I couldnt get my head around the CE, its wat too powerful!

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:46 am 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
I don't see a point in making a new ability like force confusion when it's the same thing as coruption, espicially when the reven we do have has a version of coruption. There's no reason to name it force confusion except to confuse people as to why it's the same as coruption except worded different. Just give him coruption and be done with it. That said I think he should cost more than gmls not less because of his commander effect alone. So what if gmls can kill him one on one. Dash or whoever else is in his squad is going to kill gmls because gmls won't be able to stop any damage from anyone else.


The CE is very strong. But I don't think you're understanding Force Confusion correctly. It affects the base damage that the target does. Sort of like Cortosis Gauntlets.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:08 am 
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Ahh. I didn't catch that. Well then with that and his ultra poweful commander effect I do think he has to cost a little more than gmls. My opinion but I think that taking base damage away combined with enemys not being able to avoid damage is really powerful and constitutes a high cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:00 am 
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The cost must also consider the faction the mini is in. I'm not saying that 114 is the right cost, but basing it entirely off of GLMS is not how to determine his cost. The sith faction does not have near the tech support that NR has, and therefore, you cannot compare one on one with GMLS. With Ganner, Leia, lots of powerful disruptive minis, tempo control, etc.... GMLS has far more support minis than Revan. I do agree with his CE being extremely powerful, but honestly at 114 points you begin really dropping effectiveness of a piece when so much of the squad is tied up in one mini. Revan does not have access to tempo control which is really going to make it a difficult piece to build around and give sufficient support to, so in actuality he may be costed right where he needs to be.

I'm still up for listening to more comments on his cost, and continue to give reasoning because I very well may adjust his cost if it really seems needed, and if enough people think he should be recosted.


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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Well then, by your own statement you should make him a more effective cost!
Drop Intuition
Give him
Allied characters within 6 squares gain +6 on all dice rolls on their turn and may spend Darth Revans Force Points once per turn.
That allows you to make him a better character, lower his cost a gives him a larger option for supporting characters.

Sorry didnt mean to PM you!

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:41 pm 
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My only question is why doesnt he have Dark Armor, when he appears to be wearing roughly the same clothing as he is in the first mini?

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:14 am 
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Cerous Mutor wrote:
Well then, by your own statement you should make him a more effective cost!
Drop Intuition
Give him
Allied characters within 6 squares gain +6 on all dice rolls on their turn and may spend Darth Revans Force Points once per turn.
That allows you to make him a better character, lower his cost a gives him a larger option for supporting characters.

Sorry didnt mean to PM you!


My point wasn't to say he needs to have his SAs, CE, etc changed to fit 114. I was simply stating that considering the faction he is in makes 114 points reasonable for this piece. If he was in Rebel, Imperial, or NR he would probably need to be more just as you are saying. I realize you disagree on his cost, and you may be right, but I'm going to hold off recosting him unless more people agree on his cost being too low.

I'm not trying to get into a heated arguement, and I assume you aren't either. I just want to humbly state my opinion, that this Revan in the Sith faction is costed pretty close to what he needs to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:56 am 
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I think the reason why the costing is so difficult to determine for this custom is because it's hard to balance a fig that is BOTH a tremendous beatstick (automatic JH triple attack every round?) as well as a powerful commander (his Overwhelming Attack CE is superb). And whenever you have this much power in a mini, you can either 1) make it undercosted (ie, GOWK before the errata) or 2) cost it appropriately and therefore make it virtually unplayable, because it takes up so much of your squad (ie, GMLS). It's very difficult to make a mini like this and also make it playable without undercosting it.

I wonder if you would have an easier time if you made this Revan into either 1) a deadly beatstick (Intuition, MT, triple, JH) OR 2) a powerful mid-cost commander. Trying to do both is causing headaches, as we're seeing.

But if you want to keep hiim as is (no doubt he will be fun to play!), then I'd personally say that 114 sounds about right. He'll be dynamite in 500pt games, but very difficult to use in 200 pts and less. Just like GMLS.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Heck id play him he would be really fun to use, autowin init intuition into place ad triple something every round while dash or another shooter is picking everything apart (and the damage not getting evaded :)). 114 points is just too high cost of a character to use in 200 point games competitively. I would add this revan to the kazdan box i.e. minis that are super fun to play but not competitively.

That being said if you drop the AMAZINGLY AWESOME! Commander effect and lower him to the 80ish range i would play him competitively.

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 Post subject: Re: Revan, Sith Leader
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Yes, that's pretty much what I'm getting at. However, even at 80-ish points he's still gonna be hard for the Sith to build around (as are Bane and Exar, etc). But it is still moving in the right direction, IMHO.

That's really the problem with the Sith: their heroes (or villains?) are so devastating and powerful that in order to do them any justice you have to make a 70+ pt character, which is pretty much self-defeating when it comes to competitive play.

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