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 Post subject: Mace Windu, Lightsaber Champion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:17 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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Okay, here is my latest update of a powerhouse Mace Windu. I am tempted to say the cost is a little low, but what do you guys think?

What do you think of my version of Vaapad Style Mastery? I was trying to go for something along the lines that made Mace truly give into his pleasure of fighting (sinse Vaapad is that style). Jedi Hunter seemed like a fit for a pleasureful fighter. Use the Force is a strong connection with this Vaapad Mastery. Essentially, you spend 3 force points to gain Jedi Hunter, but also get a critical hit out of the situation.

Dispassionate Killer I think is the perfect force power for Mace because a person to use Vaapad truly toys with the idea of turning to the dark side. Originally I thought Dark Temptation, but a high cost mini like Mace is just not a good mini to utilize the way you can with Ferrus Olin (ie: waiting until Mace is nearly dead to use DT, let him turn to your opponent's squad, then kill him getting an easy 74 points and a likely win of the game). For that reason, Dispassionate Killer works better. It puts the person using Mace in a difficult situation by usually waiting till Mace is low on HPs, then using it and using mettle to reroll if needed to help him stay alive longer, but if not.....your opponent gains 74 points, and you may be out of one of your only few damage doers.

I still don't know if having mettle makes him too strong since he has lightsaber defense, and master of the force 2 and an increased chance of making his Dispassionate Killer save.

I truly think for today's game to support a high cost Mace Windu, he needs at minimum the ability to do significant damage on the go (GMA/Triple/Use the force: Vaapad Mastery)

Like I said, he may be costed too low, and I am sure I need to change some things, but I think this is an excellent version of a true Mace Windu.

The 3 basic powerful combo force powers/special abilities that you need to really consider are:

Triple Attack, and Greater Mobile Attack

Vaapad Mastery, and the combo of Use the Force.

Dispassionate killer, mettle, and master of the force 2

High def/HP with Lightsaber Defense, MotF 2, and mettle

I also added anti-affinity that restricts him from being in a squad with any Anakins since momentum is going to make him probably too strong, and it makes sense when you look back at the way Mace Windu was killed in Revenge of the Sith.

Let me know what your thoughts are on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Lightsaber Champion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:50 pm 
Master of the Order
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You can just use the regular 'Affinity' word, not 'Anti-Affinity' I think. Either way works though. He is definitely under costed though. He's a follower, which means he can benefit from General Skywalker's CE and get Momentum. So, that would be a Greater Mobile/Triple attack, from up to 10 squares away thanks to MOTF2, with Momentum. Or, it could be a GMA/Triple from 6 squares away, with two uses of UTF? That'd be 130 damage. Granted, I guess it costs 6 Force Points to do it, compared to 1 Force Point from Mara Jedi for Cunning/Assault. Hmmm... Granting Jedi Hunter might be a bit much though. I would say that granting Jedi Hunter for the remainder of that turn would be appropriate, but not for the entire skirmish.

Of course, somebody could go the route of Momentum and then use Dispassionate Killer as well. Against a Jedi, if you did Use The Force and Dispassionate Killer on the first attack, then the first swing would do 70 damage, (20x2 + Momentum + Dispassionate), and then the 2nd and 3rd swings would each do 60 damage (20 + Momentum + Dispassionate + Jedi Hunter) for a total of 190 damage against a Force User for only 4 Force Points. Granted, Mace might die after all that, but if he's low on HP anyways, what difference would that make? Even without Momentum that's still 160 damage.

So you have a piece that can do 160 all by himself, with very good base stats, and a heavy defensive ability as well. I would definitely put his cost up more in the 100+ range I think, just simply because of all the CEs he can benefit from.

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 Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Lightsaber Champion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:08 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Yeah, I think he's undercosted. Correcton @ Lobostele: Mace can't gain Momentum from Anakin, because he can't be in the same squad as Anakin.

GMA-Triple with Vaapad is a really nice combo, though. Even that with the base stats you've given him is pretty close to 74pts, IMHO. As for Vaapad Mastery, I think there are other things you could do:
-When this character scores a Critical Hit, the damage cannot be avoided or redirected.
-When this character scores a Critical Hit, it scores triple damage instead of double.
-When this character scores a Critical Hit, it may make an immediate attack.
-When this character scores a Critical Hit, the target counts as activated, save 16.
...and so on. Giving Mace Jedi Hunter seems a bit much, imho.

As for Dispassionate Killer, I really can't see that being needed or justified on this character. MotF2 and Renewal is good already, with LS Defense and Mettle. Giving him UTF might be broken, depending on how VSM works.

In either case, solid stats, triple, vaapad, gma, LS Defense, Mettle, and MotF2 are a solid combo. 74pts right there.

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 Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Lightsaber Champion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:19 pm 
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@ Lobo, i'd put most of your concerns to rest.

Affinity (doesn't need to be called anti-affinity) prevents him from being with General Skywalker, so no triple momentum attacks. Other commanders that boost him, like Flobi, GOWK, and GMY, would mean that your main squad is now 2 characters, I would hope that a 1/3 of your squad is capable of doing 120 + damage a round.

Mace can output a ton of damage. which a 70 + cost piece should be. Look at the disappointments from characters like Revan, Darth Krayt.. or compare to other high cost characters; vader JH can do 90 + CEs.., Lord Vader can do 120 +CEs, Exar can do 90.

commenting on Mace:
Not sold on this version of Vaapad Mastery, I like the 'this damage cannot be prevent or redirected on a crit' or 'does triple damage on crit'. Maybe you can have him take some kind of Defense penalty, or maybe 'cannot use the force after a rolled crit for rest of round'...

HP, def, att all on par with a good mace.
Mettle and GMA are good. in terms of mettle, with only FR1, he won't have a lot of FPs to burn through with mettle rerolls, so long as a Republic force battery doesn't come along, he shouldn't be crazy with that.

Assume he'll always be paired with R2, so at round 2, he'll be twelve squares in and have at most, 12+6+2 = 20 square range, which is very good, but you'll probably lose R2 after.

I guess my final judgement rests on if VSM is going to redone. Right now, with gaining JH after using UtF he can do some powerful damage to an opposing melee fig, and can pull it off by round 1 (only needs 3fps).. I'd put his cost just about where it is actually.

so VSM is a little off, but otherwise a good fig. Not sure if he'd replace 2/3 attackers in any current squads.. but he's an interesting option.

Some people may not like that he has dispassionate Killer, which is okay.. could replace it with one of the other one (like the gain save on fail) or even give him precision instead in case he needs that extra damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Lightsaber Champion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:39 pm 
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I think it was pretty over-costed as well, mostly due to Dispassionate Killer. Here are some changes I made:

I dropped the old Vaapad Mastery and made it a combo of two suggestions TINT made.

I dropped Dispassionate Killer:

At this point, I could see myself using General Skywalker + JWM over using Mace in most situations, so I have a hard time thinking he is overcosted now with the new adjustments.

With that, do you still think it is overcosted? Any other suggestions?


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Last edited by lonescout on Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Lightsaber Champion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Thanks for the input so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Lightsaber Champion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:51 pm 
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This newer version already looks much better, though I'm not so sure about combining two extra effects into VSM. What you're doing with the 3 things I mentioned is basically giving him one of the following SAs:
-Vicious Attack (triple dmg on a crit)
-Overwhelming Force (ala Lord Vader) for that attack
-Flurry (ala CS Yoda, Luke Champion, etc)...which is very scary on a Vaapad piece!

Giving Mace Vicious and Overwhelming Force seems a bit excessive, especially when he has UTF. And since this Mace is a follower (a good thing, IMHO), you'll also always be using the Chag Merc Commander (+20dmg on crits) in squads with this Mace, which means that you can move in and do 80dmg of unblockable, unbodyguardable, un-riposte/djemso-able damage, and then still get to make another 2 attacks. And if one of those is a crit (15% per attack), then you're doing another 80...yikes! If you leave VSM to just include Overwhelming Force, then Mace can run in and do 100dmg max without extra crits (UTF for 60, then 2 more attacks), and that's on par with Darth Bane, who costs 82 pts. Granted, Bane was costed at 82 back in CotF...but if he was made now I wouldn't cost him below 78 at minimum. Furthermore Bane has no real way to prevent damage, and his faction support is miserable (lacking pieces like R2, Panaka, GOWK, etc).

Furthermore, this Mace can run in for 3 attacks, and then mobile back out of LOS, which is very tactically effective.

If his name is "Lightsaber Champion," then I do think that LS Defense (rather than just Deflect) is necessary. To have a LS Champion who cannot block is like having a professional hockey player who can't skate. Just sayin'. :) Maybe give him Block and Riposte but no Deflect? That would go along with his Lightsaber Champion title.

So I start to wonder if you're trying to do too much with this character, for the cost.

Like you, I really want to see a Mace that rocks the gameboard. For game balance, he can't be broken or insane, but for playability concerns he can't cost too much (or else you can't build around him...cf GMLS). Therefore, here is my humble suggestion:

Mace Windu, Lightsaber Champion
Cost: 75
Stats
HP: 150
Def: 22
Att: 16
Dmg: 20

SAs
Unique, Melee, Triple, GMA, Anakin-hater (or whatever you wanna call it)
Vaapad Style Mastery (crit on 18-20, Overwhelming Force on the crit)

FPs
Force 2, Renewal 1, MotF2, Block, Riposte...Force Absorb?

This version does what you want him to do and it's still possible to build around him, but he isn't broken or overpowered. I really dunno...it's hard to make a high-powered beatstick that is playable but not broken.

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 Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Lightsaber Champion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:30 pm 
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Yes, I agree, either triple damage, or unpreventable on the crit, but not both. I think either works well with Vaapad.

I think however, apposed to Tint that he should continue to have LS Defense. He has a limited force pool, and even if he tries to defend against every incoming attack, he'll run out of fp awefully fast.

I do think that Force Absorb is a nice one to add though.

So I would drop one of those parts of the VSM.. and add Absorb. Keep the cost the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Lightsaber Champion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:54 pm 
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Updated above card. I changed Vaapad Style Mastery. For now, I'm holding off on the other suggestions, but I might change those eventually.


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