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 Post subject: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:47 pm 
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Here is what I have in mind for Jaina, SotJ:

Pay attention to the wipe mind and forgetfulness. Those two abilities do similar things but are very different, and will be used differently in the game. Niman Style mastery simply adds +10 damage to the already exhisting +2/+2. Stealth and speed 10 along with Niman Style Mastery is what make this mini cost so much. In fact, I'm worried she might not cost enough for what she does.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:51 pm 
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I also originally made her before Ganner Rhysode came out, so I gave her speed 10 to give the NR a movement breaker to bring them into a little more solid pairings with the Imperials, Rebels, and Republic. So considering Ganner Rysode, I can modify her speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Mind wipe might be too powerful and could be abused like crazy but I want to see what other's say as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:07 am 
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Yes, I think Mind Wipe is overpowered. Jaina is a tremendous threat, and so with 1 or 2 uses of this Power, she would be nearly invulnerable to the majority of damage output from the opposing squad for the rest of the skirmish...and all this with a replaces-attacks ability. If she saves up the FP (not that hard when your opponent's main threat has been neutralized), she can do it twice, which could be devastating, especially considering that you can (and probably would) run Kyle JBM with her, who would remove the CE boosts that could otherwise make those enemies able to at least do a little bit of damage to her.

Forgetfulness 2 looks really good, though I think you do need to include an indicator of time; ie, Replaces Attacks, Only on this Character's Turn, etc. Or maybe just this: "Only usable when this character is attacked:" :) It's like spending 2 FP for tremendous defensive ability vs melee figs (or adjacent shooters), which, from what I've heard, closely fits her character from the books. She was just deadly in close combat. It also works to limit the effectiveness (and possibly brokenness) of Riposte with Twin and Niman Mastery since she could either Riposte or Forget any attacks, but not do both.

Riposte and Twin Attack is pretty nuts, especially when you have Niman Mastery active. "Sure, I'll take a hit for 20, and then dish 60 back to you."

Niman Style Mastery looks really good; it's a good step up for the Mastery level.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:48 am 
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i agree, wipe mind looks way to OP honestly. if you want it that badly you may need to make it a "replaces turn" rather than a "replaces attacks".

but i like the idea of letting forgetfulness be used when she is attacked, it would be more like a force defense power and would match her cannon as well. btw, love speed 10 with her and Niman mastery, very good idea with her i like it.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:06 pm 
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Yeah, I've been thinking of this custom design again over the past few days, and I still really like it. I don't normally jump at custom figs, and I rarely even pay attention to them, but this version of Jaina is outstanding! I really like her; nicely done!

I would definitely play this rendition of Jaina, with the appropriate adjustments to force powers (Wipe Mind and Forgetfulness) and such. She's powerful, but not overpowered. She definitely adds her own play style (Niman Mastery is a masterpiece!) and with high speed and riposte/twin, she's a heck of an offensive threat. Her cost is pretty high, but I think she's worth it because, unlike many other 60+ cost figs, Jaina has some outstanding defensive abilities. And in order to lower her offensive threat, the opponent will want to drop her to 1/2 hp asap...and dropping her hp like that will either be dangerous (riposte/twin/NSS) or ineffectual (forgetfulness). Either way, she'll be worth her points. Whatever happens, she must not be allowed to easily gain LS Assault! That could lead to broken pretty quickly.

One idea which just came to mind is to maybe to drop her speed to 8 instead of 10, since there are no other Speed 10 melee threats (Jarael has Speed 8), and she could spend a FP to move 10 if she needs to. I dunno, maybe other people should comment on the matter of her speed as well. Increased speed for a melee piece that can make more than 1 attack on the run is always helpful (ie, General Skywalker)...but you don't want to overdo it to the point that it breaks the game. At this point I'm not sure if it would or not, but I think it bears discussing. If you do drop her Speed to 8, you could probably justify dropping her cost down to 59/60 or so (assuming my suggested force power adjustments). Thanks again for producing such an outstanding piece!

I really hope that the development team for the V-sets takes a look at this design.

EDIT: In fact, I've just sent a PM to the members of the Dev Team, suggesting that this might be a good way to go for a Jaina Sword mini.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:11 pm 
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I agree speed 8 would be better and allow for a cost drop and with the force power changes I think she would be set!

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Wow! Thanks for the input! Sorry I haven't gotten back to this for a while. I've been super busy with school. Anyway, I like a lot of the suggestions and I appreciate all of the compliments from tint! I'll update the mini and repost the stats in just a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:23 pm 
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Here's the updated version with some of the suggestions implemented.

Her Speed is reduced to 8.
I completely got rid of "Wipe Mind."
I adjusted the mechanics of "Forgetfulness 2"

I thought about changing wipe mind to "save of 11." which might be a force power to play around with, but I don't think it works correctly with this mini.

I also thought of adding knight speed to Jaina along with Speed 8, but I also think that might get her speed a little rediculous since the faction has access to levitation.

Anyway, let me know what you think of this version. :)

The cost can be adjusted if needed. From the way I can see this playing out, I can see the cost ranging from mid 50's to mid 60's, just depending on how competitive you want the mini to be within the realm of SWMs.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:06 pm 
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One other option which just came to mind: Would it fit to give this Jaina affinity for characters named Han Solo (like the original Jaina)? If so, I can see some really creative builds working out for the NR at 200:

45 Mara Jedi
55 Jaina, Sword
25 Han Solo in ST Armor...

It would be fun to get the old CRuBLS build going again. Anyway, just a thought; what are your thoughts? I think it could add a lot of flavor and personality to the mini, as well as some very creative squad builds (the various Hans have some great CEs, and Han Smuggler is always useful in a NR squad).

Hmm, now for the delicate art of costing....

Jaina is a follower, so she can benefit from some very useful CEs (mobile twin and riposte twin on the aoo is nice), and who knows what CEs the NR will gain in the future? She has excellent survivability (stealth, forgetfulness, and 22 def with NSM), as well as great offense (twin, speed 8, riposte, NSM), so you don't want to cost her too low.

In many ways she's similar to Mara Jade, Jedi, who costs 45 (and is likely undercosted by 5 pts or so). Stealth, Twin, 20 def, 110 hp. Mara does more damage but really relies on Cunning to do so, while Jaina has much more survivability (Forgetfulness is huge if played right) and can do consistent damage at any time throughout the round. Mara can still do max damage when she's about to die, but Jaina loses lots of effectiveness when NSM is gone. So I'd say the two of them are pretty similar, and in many ways probably pretty equal. The thing is, Mara Jedi is well-attested as an undercosted mini (she probably should've cost 50), and we don't want to add another broken mini into a squad with Mara. lol So, given the similarities between these two pieces, I'd suggest costing Jaina at around 50-51. If you include Affinity with Han (personally I think it would be a great thing) then maybe as high as 53-55. Again, it depends on how competitive you want her to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:34 pm 
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I like the old Jaina much for the reason she can bring some great Han Solos into the NR (especially since they can always use more options for shooters), so I added that. I added unique (I don't know how I missed that originally). And I recosted her at 54. This can potentially make for an interesting Dinamic Duo Squad with Kyle, CI, and I think she is now very competively costed.

Originally, I thought lower 50's was too low, because I considered her speed, forgetfulness, riposte, and Niman Style Mastery to put her far above Mara, Jedi. However, Lightsaber assault, block, and cunning really make mara comparable since Mara has more of an initial damage output, so I think lower/mid 50's is an excellent range for Jaina, SotJ.

To know for sure, testing will be needed, but it looks like a great place to start. There are going to be some minis close to her price range she very solidly outcompetes in most situations, but there will be other situations where she becomes very vulnerable. Her problems will come when she faces squads with Zuckuss, force sense, or is low on HPs (due to NSM) or low on force which will take away her offensive and defensive threat to others who attack her when she's based due to her lack of being able to use forgetfulness or riposte.

I am actually really starting to like this mini more and more as we are coming up with some solid options for the smaller detials that is making it an interesting mini and thinking up different situations where she will be very strong or very vulnerable.

Feel welcome to keep the input coming. :D


EDIT: I changed the force power from reading Forgetfulness to reading Wipe Mind. It is still the same force power as forgetfulness, just named different. I hope that doesn't confuse too many people since so much of the conversation is about the force powers wipe mind and forgetfulness. ;)


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Last edited by lonescout on Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:31 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:29 pm 
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very nice, good cost, and well thought out. Its a piece that adds to the NR without taking away from something that is already in the faction. I'd love to see it made. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:00 pm 
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Just something I have been thinking about: I think it work better to call Forgetfulness "Wipemind." I like the force power forgetfulness, and I think that should stay the same, but rather than calling it "forgetfulness" calling it "Wipemind" will better suit the mini. When I first made Jaina, SotJ, I read up about some of her abilities which included the Wipemind force power she learned from Kyp Durron, so I initially made the wipemind force power, and made forgetfulness a sublevel of wipemind, but sinse we are not using the wipe mind force power, I prefer to simply call forgetfulness, wipemind instead. I'll change that in the card above.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:12 pm 
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Ruhk wrote:
very nice, good cost, and well thought out. Its a piece that adds to the NR without taking away from something that is already in the faction. I'd love to see it made. :)


Thanks Ruhk. Thanks to all the help from everyone (particularly TINT), I think the mini is turning out excellent.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:32 am 
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How does this look?

I changed her affinity to Mandos sinse that is where she really became a true Jedi combatant, and the Mandos could use a solid Jedi Beat! :D


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Last edited by lonescout on Sun May 02, 2010 7:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:29 am 
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Looks great!

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:16 am 
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That is amazing!!!!
Do you take orders for them?

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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:59 am 
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Cerous Mutor wrote:
That is amazing!!!!
Do you take orders for them?


I could potentially start. I have finals this week and next week for pharmacy school, so I won't be able to start on doing much until the 8th. Let me know what you have in mind, and I will see what I can do.

Send me a pm if your interested.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:23 pm 
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If she is attacked by an adjacent enemy and you use mind wipe, it would be useless anyways seeing as how every character may only attack once per round. Or were you thinking to reduce damage output by characters who have double or twin attack? Other than that I think it is an amazing mini!


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 Post subject: Re: Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:30 am 
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Think of the many multi-attack options: Double/Triple/Quad, Twin, LS Assault, plus characters that want to be adjacent, such as those benefitting from General Skywalker's Momentum CE, or from the new Darth Bandon CE. Taking away 20dmg per hit from adjacent enemies is a HUGE deal, especially for a melee piece who wants to get in others' faces. If Jaina bases Rex or Cad or Dash, then they're either taking 40/60 on the aoo, or they're getting mind-wiped when they attack her.

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