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Ko Sai, Clone Master
https://www.swmgamers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8228		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  DarthChaos [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Ko Sai, Clone Master
Image

Ko Sai is the Kaminoan responsible for the cloning process that created the Grand Army of the Republic. She stands out in the Karen Traviss novels, and since we love Karen Traviss, we made Ko Sai.

We borrowed the idea from darthraven. Here's the original. We really liked the idea of removing the "Unique" restriction, but wanted a more accessible mini for the purposes of gameplay - ours is the Kaminoan Ascetic. So, thanks to darthraven, and if you don't like the Special Ability, send all complaints to him.

As a side note, this is our first card with the new red logo!

Anyway, let me know if it looks good or if it needs some tweaking.

You can find our custom cards here:

DARK SIDE's Custom Minis Thread

Some cards have been updated recently after play testing, so check it out.

DC
Author:  Sith_Asassyn [ Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
I've always wanted to run 2 Vaders or 2 Boba's.. so needless to say this card is pretty freakin awesome in my opinion... I don't know if 40 for a cost is good or not.. seems a little bit steep in my opinion.. maybe if you drop the cost to around 20.. Then add in something like. (If this character is defeated all Unique characters In your squad take 40 Damage. Save 11.) would significantly reduce the cost

Also if you would be kind enough to share your blank card templates for each faction that would be awesome.. I'd like to make some custom cards to go along with the minis I've created, and your cards are the best I've seen honestly.
Author:  DarthChaos [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
I'm thinking of changing the ability to read:

Advanced Cloning (One living character in your squad may ignore Unique for the purpose of squad building)

Then I may lower her cost to 30-35.
Author:  DarthChaos [ Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
What would you think of this:

Advanced Cloning (Whenever a Unique living ally within 6 squares of this character would be defeated, with a save of 16, it instead immediately returns to play with full Hit Points)
Author:  crazyjawarancorrider [ Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
little too much like Leia HC CE, maybe if you cost her around 30 and make the extra uniques cost more
Author:  LoboStele [ Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
Well, here's my thoughts.....if you were to switch it to the Save of 16 thing....Unless it was costed under 10 points, I'd never play it. I've only played Leia HC maybe 2 times. Statistically, you only get to use her CE to save 1/4 of your pieces (save 16 = 25% chance). So, you'd have to have at least 4 Uniques in your squad to statistically have any chance of Adv. Cloning to work. And then, you'd only be saving ONE piece out of those 4 Uniques. And there would be plenty of games where you'd make NO saves above 16. I just think that particular wording is too much dependent on chance to be all that playable.

I rather like the idea you posted earlier where she would allow you to choose 1 Unique Ally and remove the Unique restriction from that character. Would then allow you to run 2 of the same piece in a squad. Not sure how often people would actually use that, but could be fun, and I don't see it being too broken. Make her about 10 points or so to do that, and you'd be set.
Author:  DarthChaos [ Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
What if we did this for 40 points:

Special Ability:

Advanced Cloning (One living character in your squad may ignore Unique for the purpose of squad building)

Commander Effect:

Whenever a Unique living ally within 6 squares of this character would be defeated, with a save of 16, it instead immediately returns to play with full Hit Points
Author:  LoboStele [ Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
Personally, I'd never play it for 40 points. IMO, the Commander effect should never cost more than about 1/4 of your Unique piece. Now, of course, the problem is if you run a piece like this with GMLS, who has 2 Force Points to come back, or Flobi with FPs and Mettle. So, maybe for those figures it would be worth the 40 points.

Might take an approach for this one similar to what I suggested on a Sith Spirit somebody else was working on. Might word it similar to Han in Carbonite. Have Ko Sai's points be dependent on what Unique it is tied to. Have her be worth 1/4 the points of the most expensive Unique in your squad. To me, 1/4 of the points would be equal to the 1 in 4 chance of making that Save 16. Could even do something like 1/4 the most expensive piece's points + 10 extra or something.

But for most situations, soaking up 40 points of the squad would be a LOT of points, IMO.
Author:  DarthChaos [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
Image

The point cost is definitely the kicker. LoboStele suggested a fairly elegant solution, based on the Han Solo in Carbonite mini. Of course, now I have to figure out how to word it so someone can't pick a lower point version of a Unique for Ko Sai's cost. Suggestions?

We'd considered making Advanced Cloning a CE, like the Leia it's based on, but with mouse droids and MA's Booming Voice, I'm afraid it'd extend the ability too far, though that might be preferable. This version dovetails nicely with the Cloning SA we created for the Spaarti Cloning Cylinder.

Let me know what you think!
Author:  LoboStele [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
I think making it an SA is the perfect way to do it. Granted, somebody could throw Wicket in their squad, and then this guy would only cost 4 points, which is dirt cheap for the Commander Effect. So, could re-word the ability to something like "costs 1/2 the chosen character or 15 points, whichever is higher" or something like that.
Author:  DarthChaos [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
LoboStele wrote:
I think making it an SA is the perfect way to do it. Granted, somebody could throw Wicket in their squad, and then this guy would only cost 4 points, which is dirt cheap for the Commander Effect. So, could re-word the ability to something like "costs 1/2 the chosen character or 15 points, whichever is higher" or something like that.


Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. But then you'd only be able to have two Wickets...haha. I think the Leia is only 16 points or something.

My initial concern was someone might play a 47 point Vader, use that for Ko Sai's cost, then put a 75 point Vader on the squad. I'd like to specify that the higher value is the one to be used.
Author:  DarthChaos [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
Image

Here's the version we're currently play-testing. I like that you can't play Ko Sai for 1/2 the cost of a Wicket or something. I'm still trying to figure out how to prevent someone from playing a cheap Vader for Ko Sai's cost while "cloning" an expensive Vader, or something along those lines. It may not be worth the hassle of hammering it out, but it feels incomplete.

Let me know if you have any suggestions!
Author:  Ruhk [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
I wouldn't really worry about that too much, the 'use cheap vader to get expensive vader" issue.

I mean.. cheapest vader is Anakin SA, who costs 39 points. So clone master costs 20, and 2nd vader.. say LotF is 71.
so far that's 130 points.. quite a hefty cost to have 2 vaders.. and one is medicore at best.
Author:  DarthChaos [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
Ruhk wrote:
I wouldn't really worry about that too much, the 'use cheap vader to get expensive vader" issue.

I mean.. cheapest vader is Anakin SA, who costs 39 points. So clone master costs 20, and 2nd vader.. say LotF is 71.
so far that's 130 points.. quite a hefty cost to have 2 vaders.. and one is medicore at best.


Good point! I feel much better. :D
Author:  DarthChaos [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
How's this?

During setup, choose one living character to ignore Unique for the purpose of squad building; your squad may include a second character who counts as the chosen character; this character's point cost X is 1/2 of the printed cost of the chosen character or 15 points, whichever is higher
Author:  LoboStele [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
I'm not sure what difference that wording makes. Maybe I'm just not understanding what is different about it.

I did notice though, I don't think you need to use the words 'during setup'. That would technically occur after you build the squad. Is that how it is worded on Han in Carbonite? I don't have his card handy.
Author:  DarthChaos [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
LoboStele wrote:
I'm not sure what difference that wording makes. Maybe I'm just not understanding what is different about it.

I did notice though, I don't think you need to use the words 'during setup'. That would technically occur after you build the squad. Is that how it is worded on Han in Carbonite? I don't have his card handy.


Yeh. Han in Carbo reads:

During setup, choose another character whose name contains Han Solo. This character's point cost X is 1/2 the printed cost of the chosen character. An opponent sets up this character along with his or her squad. This character cannot be activated, cannot move, and does not count as a legal target. Its space cannot be entered, but it provides cover. If an ally ends its turn adjacent to this character, you may immediately remove this character from play and place the chosen character in its space. The newly placed character cannot activate this round.

What I'm trying to do is limit the number of "cloned" character to two. I'm also trying to provide a bottom limit to Ko Sai's cost, but make her expense go up with the price of the chosen character. I think I overwrote the previous verson of the hosted JPG, so now the earlier version of the SA is listing as the current one. :oops:
Author:  LoboStele [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
OK, sounds good then! I think you've really done a solid job with this one.
Author:  DarthChaos [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
LoboStele wrote:
OK, sounds good then! I think you've really done a solid job with this one.


Thanks, Lobo!
Author:  caledre [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ko Sai, Clone Master
I really don't like the ability to remove 'unique,' but it seems like I'll be the only one. For Ko Sai I'd like to see him have Immediate Reserves: Clone Troopers or something.
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