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 Post subject: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:55 pm 
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Okay, so I've often given feedback and/or comments on other customs, but I've never actually tried my hand at a custom of my own. The other day, out of the blue, I had this idea for an OR CE pop into my head, and so I figured that maybe it would be worth sharing. Then I needed to find an OR piece to use it, and KOTOR 2's Vandar came to mind as the most likely candidate.

So, with a character name to work from, I did some research, and here is what I found on wookieepedia:
Quote:
Vandar Tokare was a master of the Ataru form of lightsaber combat, and owned two shotos.[13] Like most wielders of the Force, he could perform Mind tricks, but he also possessed many strong Force powers such as Sever Force and Force Suppression. He was also capable of advanced applications of Telekinesis, like levitation, and could wield weapons effectively without his hands.[13]


Therefore, based on the info from Wookieepedia and my CE idea, here is my initial attempt at Master Vandar:
Quote:
Master Vandar 40

HP 110
Def 20
Att +10
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Melee Attack (This character can only attack adjacent enemies.)
Ataru Style Mastery (+4 attack and Twin Attack [Whenever this character attacks, he makes 1 extra attack against the same target] if exactly 1 enemy is within 6 squares.)

Force Powers
Force 2
Force Renewal 2 (This character gains 2 Force points each time he activates)
Master of the Force 2 (This character may spend Force points up to 2 times in a single turn.)
Jedi Mind Trick (Force 1, usable only on this character’s turn: range 2; target living enemy is considered activated this round and cannot make attacks of opportunity this turn; save 11.)
Sever Force (Force 3: replaces turn: Target adjacent character cannot spend Force points for the rest of the skirmish.)
Force Defense (Force 3: Cancel a Force power used by a character within 6 squares.)
Levitation (Force 1, replaces attacks: Move 1 Small or Medium ally within 6 squares to any unoccupied square within 6 squares. This move does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)
Force Spirit 6 (If this character is defeated, immediately add 6 Force points to an allied character with a Force rating; that allied character can spend Force points 1 extra time per turn for the rest of the skirmish.)

Commander Effect
For the rest of the skirmish, Unique allies with a Force Rating gain Force Spirit 6.



So, there he is, Master Vander. He started out as a commander effect looking for a place to happen, and with the help of the holonet, he took on much more. The way I envision him being played is as an annoying tech piece similar to Yoda of Dagobah. He’s not a heavy-duty attacking piece, and that’s why I didn’t give him Double (with Ataru Mastery that would quickly become really powerful). His main role is to activate enemies, strip them of Force, cancel Force powers, and move his people around (I think it’s obvious that the OR, of all factions, should surely have access to Levitation!). I imagine that a regular turn for this character could consist of Mind Tricking an enemy, and then Levitating an ally into a useful position. Your opponent will have to go after either Vander, who is acting as a continual pain-in-the-neck, or the levitated piece which is suddenly in a threatening position. I expect he’ll be fun to play, for this reason. Oh, and to anticipate questions about Levitation and MotF2, Levitation cannot be used 2x in a round because it replaces attacks.

With regard to his CE, I wanted to find a way to boost the OR’s force-using capabilities to the level where they should be, since this was the most force-user-prevalent time in SW history. Making his CE last for the entire skirmish might be overpowered, or maybe it will be what makes him useful. The thing is, if his CE dies when he does (which could often be quickly, since he has no defensive abilities), then you’ve paid some significant points for nothing but 6 fp. But if his CE lasts the entire skirmish, then he’s still useful, even after he dies (in addition to giving 6 FP to another character). I think it’s important that the CE doesn’t boost non-uniques, since those 5pt Younglings would abuse it like crazy. Furthermore, it does give the player more incentive to use the various interesting force users that the OR has. This concept fits well with the flavor of the era, when heroic (unique) jedi fought bravely and made heroic sacrifices for the greater cause. When these Unique jedi die (-cough- Cay! -cough-), they can boost either JBMs or other uniques as the situation requires.

As for cost, I want to avoid the undercosting-trap. But at the same time, this piece doesn’t have a lot of offensive capability (kinda like Yoda of D), so I’m hesitant to cost him over 40. Levitation and Force Sever make him more useful than Yoda of D in some situations, but he’s not a force battery the way Yoda of D is. Therefore, I settled on 40pts. Is that too high? Too low? Does he need Deflect? (Perhaps I just need to remove some of his Force powers, since it is not required that 1 version of a character represents every aspect of that character.) What do you think? Please critique and offer suggestions!

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Hmmm, I like it. Levitation, Mind Trick, and Sever Force make too much sense for him NOT to have. I think the CE should work for the entire skirmish, even after he dies; that makes him a much more valuable piece, since even if he gets taken down early you're still getting some heavy benefit out of him.

I think he is very comparable to Yoda of Dagobah. Yoda's got the Force Battery CE along with Light Tutor, but I think Vandar has a better set of force powers, and that CE is pretty awesome. Vandar being able to do some (although not much) damage is another big bonus; you're not paying purely for tech. Especially if you have the Exile, you'll be getting Double normally with the chance at Double + Twin (although Ataru Mastery is pretty hard to get off, it prevents your opponent from running a single big beast deep to fight Vandar alone without any threat). He is very aggressively costed, but that's totally fair in the OR (they need some aggressively costed pieces).

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:13 pm 
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He looks solid to me, the main thing is he doesnt have built in double. He'd be great for gettingyour pieces around and activating things. Exile would be more usefull in the main fight with her repulse, atton has another way to get around besides hoth's underwhelming CE.

Force Spirit eh i dont know how that would work, id have to playtest it, its effects seem pretty fun and im not sure if they are unbalencing but i dont think they are.

Overall id play the heck out of him, maybe we should test him out one night on vassal.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:19 pm 
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Yeah, I was seriously considering Double Attack, or even LS Throw 2 (to reflect his ability to use weapons without using his hands), but with Ataru Mastery, that's just too deadly.

I also realized that, depending on the sculpt used, he doesn't necessarily have a Lightsaber yet (no "Lightsaber" abilities or FPs). Maybe use the Yoda from CS or RotS.

I wonder if it would be better to maybe drop some of his extra force powers (sever force, or maybe force defense) in order to drop his cost further. The thing with tech is that it needs to be cheap, or else it really hinders the squad which tries to build around it. But yeah, I'd love to playtest him sometime. Thanks for the comments so far!

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:38 pm 
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I would consider dropping force defense to drop his cost. Besides, part of his usefulness comes from him dying. I would also maybe consider dropping Jedi Mind Trick tofurther drop his cost. However, if you keep it I think it would work well with this mini.

Great job on this mini! I like it!


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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:43 am 
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I hope you don't mind that I post a pic of what this mini might look like on a card.


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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:16 am 
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I don't mind at all! It looks great!

I do think it's a good idea to drop Force Defense (to cost him around 36-37 probably), but I think it's important to keep Mind Trick around, because it allows him to do more than levitate on his turn, and IMHO that's important for a mini over 35pts. It also allows him to be a significant annoyance factor for your opponent, which is part of his purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:14 pm 
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i know this might be a little late, but you might want to give him double also so that when he cant get attaru he has something then.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:52 am 
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Think he looks great!
Let me try something...

Master Vandar
Felucian X 22

Cost 194

In the end you have 1 felucian who could put the death star to shame...as long as you can keep Spiriting him.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:14 am 
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Cerous Mutor wrote:
Think he looks great!
Let me try something...

Master Vandar
Felucian X 22

Cost 194

In the end you have 1 felucian who could put the death star to shame...as long as you can keep Spiriting him.


Only unique allies... but hey, Logray is a shoe-in :)


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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:04 am 
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Cerous Mutor wrote:
Think he looks great!
Let me try something...

Master Vandar
Felucian X 22

Cost 194

In the end you have 1 felucian who could put the death star to shame...as long as you can keep Spiriting him.


and force spirit doesnt stack with itself. you Still get the additional force points but you can still only spend them one additional time.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:06 am 
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oooohh, i wonder if VOdo is in the same squad if you get both.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:26 pm 
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DarthJawa wrote:
oooohh, i wonder if VOdo is in the same squad if you get both.

Technically yes, since they are two different abilities/effects
could be interesting

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:35 pm 
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Hmm, seeing the balance-creep with DotF (weaker factions getting some powercreep pieces), I think that we can keep Vandar as he is, and then add LS Throw 2 and/or LS Defense. What do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:28 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Hmm, seeing the balance-creep with DotF (weaker factions getting some powercreep pieces), I think that we can keep Vandar as he is, and then add LS Throw 2 and/or LS Defense. What do you guys think?


LS2 + ASM means 4 attacks on throw right? thats pretty powerful and easy to setup cause he can move and do it. (although i love it!). Then he would become a attack piece with 80 damage on the move potiential at a decent attack rating with levitation, hmmmm sounds familiar :saber:

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 Post subject: Re: Master Vandar
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:26 pm 
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Good point. Maybe just basic LS Throw then. That's still doing 40dmg on a throw with ASM in effect...and he can do that after stunning the piece too!

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