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 Post subject: Mon Calamari Tech Specialist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:47 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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billiv15 wrote:
Let's not discuss it heavily here, if you want to respond to my answer, please make another thread.

Done, Lets continue please...

billiv15 wrote:
It was chosen because its a little used piece, from a faction that is not the Old Republic, that actually has the name "Tech Specialist" in it. It's a recommended mini, not meant to represent an actual Mon Cal 4000 BBY.

Well now I understand the rationale, thank you. There are some unnamed aquatic races in "Tales of the Jedi" the mini could be converted into with some "green stuff" or epoxy. I am no fan of the square bases but the choice can be workable to any modeler.

billiv15 wrote:
Now with that said, I don't know where you got your information, but it's flat out wrong according to wookieepedia.

Wookiepedia, really?

...And Wookiepedia is right 100% of the time?

I would kindly and respectfully refer you to the following original sources please:

"STAR WARS Sourcebook" (c. 1987) - page 76:
    " Because of Calamari's unfortunate recent history, Calamarians can be found in Imperial labor camps and in the Rebel Alliance. "

    " Technological advances were slow by human standards, retarded by the paucity of metals in Calamari's crust. "

    " Today, these mechanical floating cities dot the oceans, artificial continents resting above the constant sea. "

    " The first Calamari starship met the Empire, and made peaceful overtures. "

"Galaxy Guide 4 - Alien Races" (c. 1989) - page 57:
    " Calamarians have adopted the common language of the galaxy, and because of their recent history they can be found in Imperial labor camps and in the Rebel Alliance. "

    " Technological advances were slow because of the difficult time the Calamarians had extracting metals from the planet's crust."

    " Today, floating cities dot the oceans of the water world, artificial continents resting above the constant sea. "

    " They dreamed of finding other civilizations with which to share their hopes and aspirations. Instead they found the Empire. "

" A guide to the STAR WARS Universe" - Second Edition (c. 1994) - pages 306-307
    " First they colonized their own star system; then they discovered the secret of hyperdrive. But before they could reach out to find the galactic community they dreamed of, they met the Empire. "

billiv15 wrote:
Here's the article on the Mon Cal race. They had a very advanced civilization, particularly via their advanced technology, and entered into the Galactic Republic sometime after 4166 BBY.

The above Wookepedia information comes the the book "Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds" published on March 24, 2004. On this topic alone, "Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds" directly contradicts at least 5 older and very official SW publications, I am personally aware of, and then goes on to indirectly disagree with the entire "Tales of the Jedi" product line being that no Mon Calamari are depicted in any way in those comics and sourcebooks.

What this boils down to billiv15 is do you recognize the past or do you choose to trample the past in the interest of what is new what is popular and what is trendy???

Be warned my brother if you forget the past, you might just loose and forget what happened in 1977 that started this adventure for all of us and is the main reason why we are having this conversation.

The defense rests...

Be well bro...

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 Post subject: Re: Mon Calamari Tech Specialist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:38 am 
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Ok point made about mon cal.

Be sure and remember that a recommended mini is just recommend. I use boushek to represent salicious crumb. It doesn't matter as long as everyone is aware of what your pieces are and they are easy to recognize.

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 Post subject: Re: Mon Calamari Tech Specialist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:48 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Maybe it's helpful to realize that not everyone has gone to Star Wars Graduate School to earn their Ph.D in Galactic and Canon History.

The (apparently sad) fact is that the majority of us non-graduate padawans go to Wookieepedia to find our Star Wars history. For better or (apparently) for worse, it's the best that we've got: it's accessible, usually accurate, and easy to use. When a small group of people is pouring hours and hours of their free time into a project as intensive as designing a complete minis set, do you really want to fault them for using Wookieepedia? Don't we have bigger fish (pun!!) to fry? :D

But then, since you're so enthusiastic about historical and canonical accuracy, you also need to be honest and consistent. You need to always pay careful attention to which minis you use with each other, and which factions you allow to fight each other. The Sith should never fight against the Rebels, nor the Republic. And the Old Republic should never fight against anyone but the Sith or the Mandalorians. And furthermore, you should never include Darth Talon in a squad with Darth Revan or Darth Malak, since they are separated by thousands of years. Nor should you combine any adult Boba Fett with any Jango Fett in a squad. Nor should any Anakin mini ever be forced to face off against any Vader mini...unless you were doing a creative and imaginative exploration of what it might look like to have Vader's conflicting personas battle it out against each other...but then again, isn't that all of SWM is, a creative and imaginative exploration of the Star Wars universe?

My point is that it is unhelpful, and even disruptive, to criticize the Design Team for something as trivial as the species of one of the Recommended Minis. If you don't like having to use the MCTS, then by all means, feel free to use another piece...it's only a Recommended Mini, after all. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mon Calamari Tech Specialist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:15 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Ah I see FVB - we have contradicting sources. That's not unusual for Star Wars unfortunately. I guess I'll simply say, we went with the newer book's information :)

As to finding this insulting, not at all, no worries there Tint. He asked a legitimate question, brought up actual evidence, and did so with respect. A very different experience from other similar questioning of the designers that has been done :) I also greatly appreciate making a new thread rather than taking over that guy's custom thread. That too demonstrates to me that FVB is being quite respectful about his question, and I very much appreciate it. I can't say that enough.

The reality is, no matter how much Star Wars any of us knows, none of us knows it all. I remember briefly checking Wookiee for the MCTS, and it looked fine to me. Added in that the figure is one of the few "Tech Specialists" and isn't highly used in competitive play, and it made good sense to make it the OR TS. I can certainly see your side though, given the knowledge of other sources that I didn't have at the time of accepting the recommendation. Personally, I don't spend a ton of time debating the RM, because the concerns for what the RM is have issues that I put before canon. Let me try to explain the order of significance as I see it for the RM.

1. Preventing Confusion - this means not using minis that are likely to be played in the faction with the new mini. So for example, using Clone Troopers and Stormtroopers to represent new Mandos. Of course it's not canon exactly to do so, but it's the best fit to prevent confusion. You could call this the "out of faction" rule as well, although we haven't totally gone out of faction in all cases.

2. Not requiring customs - While we recognize a lot of us want to customize our minis, we want to ensure that no one ever has to in order to play.

3. Little used minis - This one might be higher than 3 in actuality, because we are trying to make use of as many of the unused or little used minis we all already have.

4. Looking like the actual mini - I put this fourth because while we are trying, it's not always possible and the above two concerns trump this one.

5. Canon - Whenever possible we will be as true to canon as possible, but quite honestly, it simply isn't possible to be 100% without customs.

6. Cost/Availability - I don't use this one a lot, but it is something that we do consider. We've tended to stick to the, "It's just the RM and not necessary to play" line instead of worrying about this too much, but that's not to say we don't consider it.

With that list of concerns, that hopefully explains our decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Mon Calamari Tech Specialist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:29 am 
Big Bad Brad
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Before the release of the prequel trilogy, when West End Games was responsible for generating most of the backstory for the various alien species in the Star Wars galaxy, the Mon Calamari and the Quarren were said to have had their first contact with offworlders when the Galactic Empire discovered their world. This generated continuity problems when Quarren appeared as background aliens in The Phantom Menace, and when the Mon Calamari Padawan Bant Eerin appeared in the Jedi Apprentice series. The idea that the Mon Calamari's conflict with the Empire was their first experience with offworlders was retconned away when they appeared as loyal members of the Galactic Republic in Star Wars: Clone Wars. Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds explained these previous references as Imperial propaganda.

Other canonical appearances of the Mon Calamari that predate the Empire:

■Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 22: Knights of Suffering, Part 1
■Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 23: Knights of Suffering, Part 2
■Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 36: Prophet Motive, Part 1
■Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 44: The Reaping, Part 2
■Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 49: Demon, Part 3
■Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (Mentioned only)
■Star Wars: The Old Republic, Threat of Peace Act 1: Treaty of Coruscant
■Timeline 6: Onslaught of the Sith Empire (Appears in hologram)
■Timeline 11: Rebirth of the Sith Empire (Appears in hologram)
■Star Wars: The Old Republic
■Knight Errant
■Survivors
■Jedi Apprentice: The Rising Force
■Jedi Apprentice: The Uncertain Path
■Jedi Apprentice: The Captive Temple
■Jedi Apprentice Special Edition: Deceptions
■Jedi Apprentice: The Ties That Bind
■Jedi Apprentice: The Call to Vengeance
■Jedi Apprentice Special Edition: The Followers
■Star Wars: Darth Maul 3
■Outbound Flight
■Star Wars: Racer Revenge (Mentioned only)
■Star Wars: Jango Fett
■Starfighter: Crossbones
■Jedi Quest: The Changing of the Guard
■ Gotal Standoff Ends Violently—HoloNet News Vol. 531 53 (Picture only)
■Star Wars: Jedi Starfighter
■Star Wars: Republic 50: The Defense of Kamino
■ Star Wars: Clone Wars – "Chapter 5"
■ "Fierce Currents" - Clone Wars Adventures: Volume 1
■Star Wars: Republic 54: Double Blind
■The Cestus Deception
■The Clone Wars: Decide Your Destiny: The Way of the Jedi
■ Star Wars: The Clone Wars – "Rookies" ("Newsreel" only)
■ Star Wars: The Clone Wars – "Lair of Grievous"
■Star Wars The Clone Wars 10: Hero of the Confederacy, Part 1
■ Star Wars: The Clone Wars – "Grievous Intrigue"
■Omega Squad: Targets
■Republic Commando: Triple Zero (Mentioned only)
■Republic HoloNet News Core Edition 15:01:03 (Mentioned only)
■Republic HoloNet News Core Edition 15:01:13
■Star Wars: General Grievous
■Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
■Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
■Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith comic
■Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith junior novel
■Star Wars: Republic 78: Loyalties
■Star Wars Dark Times: Parallels
■Star Wars Purge: Seconds to Die (Vision to Sha Koon)
■Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight
■The Last of the Jedi: The Desperate Mission

I'm also pretty sure there is a Mon Cal in one of the KOTOR Games but couldn't find it as a reference.

I also thought I heard Mon Calamari would be a playable race in SWTOR but when I went to look all I could find was a reference to the Chiss (seriously??).

I don't know what this was all about, and I don't really care. I think it was a legitimate question, but please don't base it's legitimacy on your research. It took me 5 minutes to find the above information...from several sources (though I copied and pasted from Wookieepedia).

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 Post subject: Re: Mon Calamari Tech Specialist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:22 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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This isn't the first time that Lucas retconned something West End Games stated as canon by throwing something into the Prequel Trilogy without actually researching it, lol.

But I did go back and look at some KotOR comics and they did have Mon Cal in the background from time to time.


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 Post subject: Re: Mon Calamari Tech Specialist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:32 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Amazing how such a simple question invokes such a response. I am not surprised and your responses tell me many things. In this case, mostly good things.

I am greatly pleased to see such passion. More often than not, we (SW fans) are in decline, and to see some vigor is always fresh air to me.

Weeks:
I completely understand what "recommended" means. I make all kinds of recommendations about my ship Deckplans and RPG players still overload the power cores as they bristle their ships with "Empire-attracting" weaponry.

I too am not omniscient in all things STAR WARS which is why I fielded the question in the first place. Joyously, I received a most satisfactory answer. That is very rare.

thereisnotry:
I believe there is a compliment in your statement and for that I humbly thank you. To answer your question, I am faulting no one but I do warn this body the Wookieepedia is only as good as its editors of which I am as well.

My call is always to find your own facts and come to your own conclusions. If you are going to call yourself a STAR WARS fan, I would challenge you to never end in your quest for SW knowledge which also includes the elder knowledge found in older source material. In other words, "Know what you write and write what you know."

I also place a great weight on history because if authors and game producers spent 10% more time doing "Basic Research" and 10% less time programing and writing, 90% of the continuity disaster that is "post May 1999 STAR WARS" would be gone. This accusation is much much more for LFL, WOTC, DEL REY, Dark Horse Comics, and Emperor George himself than this esteemed body.

billiv15:
Leadership and wisdom, a rare and wonderful gift. I was not insulted by your remarks either and now I have a most complete answer to my question. Thank you sir. Do not be alarmed by my questions. I seek to make people think and at times I too am looking for answers. It is my hope to share what I know when I can. I believe in this organization and at times you will find me asking those hard questions. All I ask is you think about it. Again thank you.

The_Celestial_Warrior:
A most impressive list sir. Are you trying to impress me? If my memory serves me, all of those sources are post May 1999. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Let me ask you this hypothetical question sir.

If in 1977, in the original STAR WARS movie a Mon Cal said to Han or Luke in the Cantina, "My race comes from a planet discovered, invaded, and enslaved by the Empire", would that long list matter to you as much???

jedispyder:
"Retcon"... ...It is perhaps the greatest evil to come to STAR WARS. My words can do no justice so I will quote a far wiser man:

" Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it " -- George Santayana

The reason the STAR WARS RPG and miniatures game was dropped by WOTC and not picked up by another company is because the STAR WARS franchise is no longer profitable.

Yes new kids are coming in at the bottom but will they remember SW the way we did? Will SW have changed their lives as it did ours? George Lucas did himself and all of us a tremendous disservice by breaking his own continuity with his old trilogy. Naturally when you trample and destroy the wellspring, all the water in the village becomes polluted.

I myself lost 3 role players for good the day after they saw Jar Jar Binks on that terrible day on May 19, 1999. SW fans have been dropping like flies ever since. If we as fans are to survive, we need to be better and smarter than everyone else. If we forget why we are here and why we became SW fans, we cease to be SW fans. I ask all of you to meditate on that for our continued existence depends on it. Thank you for your time.

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 Post subject: Re: Mon Calamari Tech Specialist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:01 pm 
Jedi Battlemaster
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I think a lot of the 'original' SW fans were a bit put off by the prequels..

Sometimes the canon decisions are very irritating and/or irrational, like how the CW cartoons are continuing to mess it up..

I think that the Mon Cals, given the conflicted canonical evidences, are still a valid OR race option.

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