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 Post subject: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:00 pm 
True Bothan Spy
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With the release of the first official Virtual Set still almost a month away, I'd like to take this opportunity to present the finished product of the Next Lost Twenty, a fan-based custom project that has been quite some time in the making.

You can find a pdf here, which contains all 20 cards and size-appropriate base tokens:

www.mediafire.com/file/g3hjhy8jbyri7ja/T...

Obviously, this project was intended as a sequel of sorts to the original Lost Twenty customs set. Unfortunately, unlike the original set, we did not have enough minis customizers who create physical pieces, so we're just limited to cards.

Our setlist:

1-Gryph
2-Admiral Saul Karath
3-Darth Zannah
4-Captain Fordo
5-Master Tholme
6-Alto Stratus
7-Tycho Celchu
8-Admiral Daala
9-Jerec
10-J'oruus C'Baoth
11-Ben Skywalker
12-Saba Sebatyne
13-Celeste Morne
14-Chief Chirpa
15-Vergere
16-Watto
17-Cassus Fett
18-Demagol
19-Supreme Overlord Shimrra
20-Yammosk

For those who may be interested in the history of the project, it went down something like this:

Quite some time ago, well before the release of MASTERS OF THE FORCE and the announcement that the game was ending, there was a discussion on the WotC Customs forum that it was about time for a new Lost Twenty set.

Some folk eventually started a voting thread, which was quite lively for a bit, then dropped into obscurity (probably with the release of a new set). Eventually, someone (I think it was Dendrite) resurrected the thread, and we started sifting through it.

We wanted to make sure that every faction was represented, of course, so the top vote-getter for each faction immediately made the cut. After that, we tried to balance the factions as much as possible, giving priority to the less-supported factions (Old Republic, Mandos, etc). We wound up with a list of 22 names. As with the first Lost Twenty, the basic criteria was that these were characters who SHOULD have been produced but had not been.

At that point, we were still hoping to do physical minis in addition to cards and the potential customizers realized that 2 of the pieces on the list (Watto and the yammosk) would be very difficult to do, so they became our "alternates."

At that point, Roque Saber set up a section on the Star Wars Customs Miniatures Database (newswminisdatabase.proboards.com) for us to have our discussions. This being a project of love, it obviously took much longer to complete than most of those involved would have liked. :)

We had actually finalized the majority of our pieces (or thought we had) when MASTERS OF THE FORCE was released. The new (and final) set introduced 2 challenges. First, we had to go over all pieces to make sure we hadn't created something that would interact poorly with MotF. Second, 2 of our initial setlist were made as official pieces (Lord Hoth and Ganner Rhysode), so suddenly our 2 alternate pieces were no longer so alternate.

As we re-assessed each piece, we also kept an eye on trimming text as much as possible to make sure each would fit on the card. We had, for example, a wonderfully magnificent Celeste Morne--but even on the smallest legitimate font, she has enough text to rival an AT-AT card.

As we were finalizing again, the very talented cardmaker Galak Fyyar joined our cause, but unfortunately only had a little time in which to do his work before leaving the country for a lenghty period (during which he will have limited internet access). Although this slowed things down, GF did a wonderful job (and hopefully I've done a better job proofing that WotC!), so we're now proud to share our finished product with you.

As with the interaction between customs and official sets, I expect that the Virtual Sets may quickly render some of our pieces moot, but we had fun designing them, and we hope you have fun perusing--and using!--them.

Enjoy, and may the Force be with you!


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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:33 am 
Jedi Battlemaster
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very cool guys. You did a great job with the flavour and balance of these figures. One thing that struck me was that the original TLT had customization steps for each figure, did you just decide to not go down that route?

I really like some of the ideas that you had for a couple of the pieces..who knows what might be done with them.. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:46 am 
Master of the Order
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Bah, I can't view mediashare site from work, lol. Will have to remember to pull this up at home sometime, unless someone would be so kind as to copy/paste the stats into the forums here. :) I'm very interested/excited to see what you guys did with some of these characters!

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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:37 am 
Sith Apprentice
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Ruhk wrote:
very cool guys. You did a great job with the flavour and balance of these figures. One thing that struck me was that the original TLT had customization steps for each figure, did you just decide to not go down that route?


Here's Your Answer:
gwek wrote:
Obviously, this project was intended as a sequel of sorts to the original Lost Twenty customs set. Unfortunately, unlike the original set, we did not have enough minis customizers who create physical pieces, so we're just limited to cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:22 am 
True Bothan Spy
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Ruhk wrote:
very cool guys. You did a great job with the flavour and balance of these figures. One thing that struck me was that the original TLT had customization steps for each figure, did you just decide to not go down that route?


We wanted to do figures but it just wasn't feasible.

Although now that the set is out, if anyone is interested... :)

There ARE threads on the customs board on WotC for a few of them: I think Darth Zannah, Vergere, Alto Stratus, and Fordo (many liberally using D&D pieces as well as Star Wars). I think a few of them could be done fairly easily as repaints (eg, Ben Skywalker = Anakin Solo with a black gi and red hair; Saul Karath = ISB Officer with the proper repaint...).

I'll see if I can find those links.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:24 am 
True Bothan Spy
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If anyone is having trouble with mediafire, let me know. I can e-mail the pdf on request.

Here's a text version of the stats. These weren't proofed, though, and may contain minor typos and even some text changes from the final cards. They don't have the pretty pictures, but DO include flavor text (which was left off many of our cards--my personal favorite is probably Daala):

Gryph
Faction: Old Republic
Cost: 26
Hit Points: 40
Defense: 15
Attack: 0
Damage: 0

Unique
Befuddle (Replaces attacks; target living adjacent enemy is considered activated this round and cannot make attacks of opportunity this turn; save 11)
Diplomat (If an attacker has line of sight to any enemies without Diplomat, this character is not a legal target and does not count as the nearest enemy, even if adjacent)
Disruptive (Suppresses enemy commander effects within 6 squares)
Rapport (Characters named Jarael or Zayne Carrick cost 1 less when in the same squad as this character)

Commander Effect:
Droids are subject to this effect: At the end of this character's turn, 2 allies within 6 squares of this character who are the same size may switch positions.

"You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat."


Admiral Saul Karath
Faction: Sith
Cost: 23
Hit Points: 60
Defense: 17
Attack: 9
Damage: 10

Unique
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Affinity (This character may be in an Old Republic squad)
Old Republic Military Reserves 20 (If you roll exactly 16 for initiative, you can add up to 20 points of non-Unique Old Republic followers without a Force rating to your squad immediately before your first activation of the round)
Recon (Roll twice for initiative once per round, choosing either roll, if any character with Recon in the same squad has line of sight to an enemy)
Shields 1 (When this character takes damage, he reduces the damage dealt by 10 with a save of 11)

Commander Effect:
Fringe characters are not subject to these commander effects. Followers without a Force rating gain Accurate Shot. Allies within 6 squares gain Shields 1.

"He was a legend in the Republic fleet, and a hero to me. Until he betrayed us."
-Carth Onasi



Darth Zannah
Faction: Sith
Cost: 46
Hit Points: 100
Defense: 19
Attack: 11
Damage: 20

Unique, Melee Attack
Soresu Style Mastery (When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Stealth (If this character has cover, she does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)
Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, she makes 1 extra attack against the same target)

Force 1, Force Renewal 1
Force Corruption 2 (Force 2, replaces attacks: range 6, non-Droids only; 20 damage, and target is corrupted. Each time the corrupted character activates, it must attempt a save of 11. On a failure, that character takes 20 damage. On a success, that character is no longer corrupted.)
Force Stun (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; target living enemy is considered activated this round; save 11)


ARC Trooper Captain Fordo
Faction: Republic
Cost: 27
Hit Points: 70
Defense: 16
Attack: 10
Damage: 20

Unique, Order 66
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, he makes 1 extra attack against the same target)

Commander Effect:
Allied characters whose name contains ARC Trooper gain Accurate Shot and Twin Attack.

If ever an ARC trooper had a soft spot, it was Fordo's for overwhelming firepower.


Master Tholme
Faction: Republic
Cost: 42
Hit Points: 100
Defense: 19
Attack: 10
Damage: 20

Unique
Melee Attack, Double Attack
Avoid Defeat (Whenever this character would be defeated, make 2 saves, each needing 11; if both succeed, this character has 10 Hit Points instead of being defeated)
Cloaked (If this character has cover, he cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies)
Disruptive (Suppresses enemy commander effects within 6 squares)

Force 1, Force Renewal 1, Master of the Force 2
Force Alter (Force 1: range 6; any 1 enemy rerolls its last attack)
Jedi Mind Trick (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 2; target living enemy is considered activated this round and cannot make attacks of opportunity this turn; save 11)

A master of subterfuge, Tholme ran the Jedi Order's spy network during the Clone Wars.


Alto Stratus
Faction: Separatist
Cost: 27
Hit Points: 90
Defense: 19
Attack: 11
Damage: 20

Unique
Melee Attack; Double Attack
Advantageous Cover (+8 Defense from cover instead of +4)
Merciless 10 (+10 Damage against enemies at half Hit Points or less)
Parry (When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Stable Footing (Not slowed by difficult terrain or low objects.)

Commander Effect:
Separatist followers within 6 squares gain Advantageous Cover and Stable Footing.

"We will let the Jedi Generals know that we will fight to be free! We will fight to defend our planet! We will send the Jedi home in caskets!"


Tycho Celchu
Faction: Rebels
Cost: 25
Hit Points: 60
Defense: 16
Attack: 7
Damage: 10

Unique, Pilot
Affinity (May be in a New Republic squad)
Intuition (Once per round, after initiative is determined, this character can immediately move up to his speed before any other character activates)
Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, he makes 1 extra attack against the same target )

Commander Effect:
Pilot allies gain Twin Attack. Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Pilot ally can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

A son of Alderaan, Tycho Celchu followed Luke Skywalker and Wedge Antilles as the leader of Rogue Squadron.


Admiral Daala
Faction: Imperial
Cost: 19
Hit Points: 50
Defense: 16
Attack: 8
Damage: 10

Unique
Imperial Military Reserves 30 (If you roll exactly 6 for initiative, you can add up to 30 points of non-Unique Imperial followers without a Force rating to your squad immediately before your first activation of the round)

Commander Effect:
If your initiative check is an odd number, non-Unique followers within 6 squares get +4 to all rolls for the round; if it is an even number, non-Unique followers within 6 squares get -4 to all rolls instead. Non-unique Imperial followers without a Force rating within 6 squares can make 1 immediate attack when they are defeated.

Few women rise to positions of power in the Empire. Natasi Daala may be the reason for that.


Jerec
Faction: Imperial
Cost: 61
Hit Points: 120
Defense: 20
Attack: 13
Damage: 20

Unique, Melee Attack, Double Attack
Doctrine of Fear (Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Attack)
It's A Trap (Enemies with Stealth within 6 squares lose Stealth)

Force 2, Force Renewal 1
Force Absorb (Force 2: Cancel a Force power used by an adjacent character)
Force Destruction (Force 5, replaces turn: sight; 60 damage to target and 30 damage to each character adjacent to that target)
Sith Lightning 30 (Force 2, replaces attacks: range 6; 30 damage)

Commander Effect:
Each non-Unique ally with a Force rating starts with +1 Force.

&quot;You've started your journey to the dark side. But that is not enough!&quot;


Joruus C'baoth
Faction: Imperial
Cost: 49
Hit Points: 110
Defense: 20
Attack: +0
Damage: 0

Unique
Dominate (Replaces turn: Target living character takes an immediate turn under your control, which does not count as one of your 2 activations this phase, even if it has already been activated this round; save 11. The target character cannot move this turn.)
Self Destruct 40 (When this character is defeated, each adjacent character takes 40 damage)

Force 3. Force Renewal 1
Battle Meditation (Force 2, replaces attacks: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains the following commander effect: Allies who combine fire grant an additional +2 Attack, and enemy characters cannot combine fire)
Force Lightning 4 (Force 4, replaces attacks: range 6; 50 damage to target. Huge or smaller characters are considered activated this round; save 16)

Commander Effect:
Whenever an adjacent follower makes an attack that benefits from combined fire, damage from that attack cannot be prevented or redirected.


Ben Skywalker, GAG Trooper
Faction: New Republic
Cost: 28
Hit Points: 70
Defense: 16
Attack: 8
Damage: 10

Unique
Affinity
(A character whose name contains Caedus may be in your squad regardless of faction)
Lightsaber +10 (+10 Damage against adjacent enemies)
Synergy (+4 Attack when an ally whose name contains Caedus or Jacen Solo is within 6 squares; +4 Defense when an ally whose name contains Skywalker is within 6 squares.)

Force 3
Force Cloak
(Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked)
Dark Temptation (Force 1: +4 attack and +20 damage until end of this character's turn. At the end of that turn make a save of 11; if this save fails, this character joins the opponent's squad until the end of the skirmish)

While serving under his cousin Jacen Solo in the Galactic Alliance Guard, Ben Skywalker was tempted by the dark side.


Saba Sebatyne
Faction: New Republic
Cost: 61
Hit Points: 140
Defense: 20
Attack: 13
Damage: 20

Unique. Melee Attack, Double Attack.
Niman Style (+2 Attack and +2 Defense while this character has more than half Hit Points remaining)
Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, she makes 1 extra attack against the same target)

Force 2. Force Renewal 1.
Force Valor (Force 2, replaces attacks: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains the following commander effect: Followers within 6 squares get +2 Attack and +2 Defense)
Lightsaber Defense (Force 1: When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Master Speed (Force 1: This character can move 6 extra squares on her turn as part of her move)

Master Sebatyne's Barabel instincts and strong connection to the Force gave her a natural edge in combat.


Celeste Morne
Faction: Fringe
Cost: 38
Hit Points: 90
Defense: 18
Attack: 10
Damage: 20

Unique; Melee Attack; Double Attack.
Muur Talisman (Replaces turn: 30 damage to all living characters within 3 squares. If this attack defeats a living enemy, you can immediately add a character named Rakghoul to your squad. The new character sets up in a square that enemy formerly occupied.)
Stealth (If this character has cover, she does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)

Force 3
Dark Temptation (Force 1: +4 Attack and +20 Damage until the end of this character's turn. At the end of that turn, make a save of 11; if this save fails, this character joins the opponent's squad until the end of the skirmish.)
Surprise Move (Force 1: After initiative is determined, a character can immediately use this Force power to move up to its speed before any other character activates.

Commander Effect:
Savage characters are subject to this effect: Rakghoul allies get +4 Attack and are not affected by the movement restrictions of Savage.

"We are one Karness Muur. As you once imprisoned me, I now imprison you."


Chief Chirpa
Faction: Fringe
Cost: 16
Hit Points: 40
Defense: 16
Attack: 4
Damage: 10

Unique, Ewok. Melee Attack
Pathfinder (Allies are not slowed by difficult terrain within 6 squares of this character)
Rapport (Ewoks cost 1 less when in the same squad as this character)
Stealth (If this character has cover, he does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)
Swarm +2 (+2 Attack against a target for each allied Ewok adjacent to that target)

Commander Effect:

Allied Ewoks gain Swarm +2. Each allied Ewok that scores a critical hit can make 1 immediate extra attack.

Chirpa led the brave Ewoks of the Bright Tree Village in the fight against the Empire.


Vergere
Faction: Fringe
Cost: 39
Hit Points: 90
Defense: 19
Attack: 0
Damage: 0

Unique
Betrayal (On an attack roll of natural 1 against this character, the attacker joins this character's squad until the end of the skirmish)
Dark Master (At the start of the skirmish, choose a Unique allied character. That character may spend Vergere’s Force points as if they were its own.)

Force 3, Force Renewal 1
Force Alter (Force 1: range 6; any 1 enemy rerolls its last attack)
Force Cloak (Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked)
Force Heal 30 (Force 2, replaces attacks: touch; remove 30 damage from a living character)
Force Stun (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; target living enemy is considered activated this round; save 11)

Commander Effect:
Each wounded Unique ally with a Force rating within 6 squares gets +4 Attack against adjacent enemies.


Watto
Faction: Fringe
Cost: 13
Hit Points: 30
Defense: 13
Attack: 0
Damage: 0

Unique
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)
Repair Supplies (Replaces Turn. Choose one adjacent ally to gain Repair 10 for the rest of the skirmish)
Salvager (Whenever a non-Unique Droid ally within 6 squares would be defeated, with a save of 16, it instead immediately returns to play with 10 Hit Points.)
Strong Willed (Cannot be affected by Jedi Mind Trick)

"I’m a Toydarian. Mind tricks don’t work on me - only money. No money, no parts, no deal."


Cassus Fett
Cost: 33
Faction: Mandalorian
Hit Points: 90
Defense: 20
Attack: 11
Damage: 20

Unique
Double Attack
Flight
(Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)
Rapport (Mandalorians cost 1 less when in a squad with this character)
Skilled Tactician (If you roll an 11 or higher for initiative, you automatically choose who goes first)
Superior Deployment (Enemy commander effects that modify the number activations in a phase are suppressed)

Commander Effect:
Each Mandalorian ally that ends its move within 6 squares of this character can move 2 extra squares at the end of its turn.

By exerting control over the clans and providing a means of converting conquered cultures into Neo-Crusaders, Cassus Fett turned the Mandalorians into a war machine intent on galactic conquest.


Demagol
Cost: 26
Faction: Mandalorians
Hit Points: 80
Defense: 19
Attack: 10
Damage: 20

Unique, Double Attack
Homicidal Surgery 30 (Replaces turn: touch; deal 30 damage to a living character. An allied character can instead remove 30 damage from itself with a save of 11.)
Jedi Hunter (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against enemies with Force ratings)
Mettle (If this character spends 1 Force point to reroll, add +4 to the result)
Protective +10 (+10 Damage while a wounded ally whose name contains Jarael is within 6 squares)

Force 1

Commander Effect:
Allies within 6 squares gain Mettle.

Demagol can be translated either "sculptor of flesh" or "butcher."


Supreme Overlord Shimrra
Faction: Yuuzhan Vong
Cost: 66
Hit Points: 180
Defense: 21
Attack: 16
Damage: 20

Unique, Melee Attack; Double Attack
Clamp (An enemy hit by this character's attack takes +10 Damage and cannot move this round; save 11 negates)
Force Immunity (Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities)
Furious Assault (Replaces turn: Can move up to 12 squares, then attack each legal target once)
Melee Reach 2 (When attacking, this character treats enemies up to 2 squares away as adjacent)
Resilient (Immune to critical hits)
Vonduun Crab Armor 11 (When this character takes damage, he can reduce the damage dealt by 10 with a save of 11)

Commander Effect:
Yuuzhan Vong allies gain Furious Assault.

As Supreme Overlord of the Yuuzhan Vong, Shimrra ruled with an iron fist and had a reputation for ruthless cruelty.


Yammosk
Faction: Yuuzhan Vong
Cost: 21
Hit Points: 110
Defense: 15
Attack: 0
Damage: 0

Booming Voice (Allies' commander effects normally limited to 6 squares have unlimited range)
Dependent Leadership (When this charater is defeated, Yuuzhan Vong allies are considered activated this round if no other allied Yammosk is in play)
Emplacement (Cannot move or be moved. Set up anywhere on your half of the battle map. )
Force Immunity (Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities)

Commander Effect:
Yuuzhan Vong allies gain Gregarious (+4 Attack if an ally is within 6 squares). Each Yuuzhan Vong ally can use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on its turn.

The Yuuzhan Vong equivalent of a battle analysis computer, yammosks coordinated Yuuzhan Vong fleets and optimized the performance of their warriors in battle.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:24 am 
Master of the Order
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Very cool stuff overall. There's at least 3-4 really good ideas there that I think would work well in future V Sets. Some of those characters are definitely ones that I'd like to see at some point as well.

Some things like Karath's and Shimrra's CE may be a tad overpowerd. Hard to say though. Karath's CE would give Accurate to pieces like Dash RS and Cad Bane, which I'm not certain would be good things. Accurate for some of the cheap Sith pieces would be pretty nice though, like the Sith Operative. Karath's granting Shields 1 to Allies would be brutal as well. Krayt with Shields 1 and VCA 6 would make him a really tough cookie. As would other pieces like Bane or Darth Talon.

I like Daala's CE, and we really do need to see more stuff like that in the game, with 'luck' based abilities.

Joruus is well done, and reminds me of another version of him that I've seen elsewhere.

I like that you guys did Saba Sebatyne, but I don't really feel like there's anything special about her. Nothing to make her stand apart as the savage reptilian fighting machine that she was.

Celeste looks well done and balanced, with a nice way for summoning new Rakghouls. The CE is good for her as well, and I like how it sort of shows the herding aspect of the Muur Talisman's abilities. ;)

I like how you did Vergere, with a myriad of abilities, that don't really seem to have a whole lot of coherence with each other, but signifies the many different masks she wore throughout the series. The CE is a cool one, and an interesting way to represent her leanings toward the ways of the Vong in terms of enduring pain.

I really like the idea with Watto, and the sort of Emergency Life Support for Droids. This could get out of hand with Mouse Droids though, seeing as how those are annoying enough to kill as it is. I think it's a solid design though. Just concerns me that the cost might be a little low. Hard to say though, as overall, he's weaker than Leia Hoth Commnander as far as stats go, but the Salvager SA would certainly be more useful than Leia's CE, especially since he's a Fringe as well. Could be REALLY frustrating in Engineer's Nute Gunray squad, lol.

Cassus cracks me up, as it's obvious that you guys had some similar ideas as the V Set team, which is awesome! At the 33 points, he's less of an auto-include as the Mando CIO from DOTF, but he's got other nice uses instead. The extra movement CE is nice, but not sure if the Mandos really need it. They are already highly mobile as it is.

Demagol is awesome, and the upgraded Homicidal Surgery is perfect on him. I was really confused by the Force Point, so had to wookieepedia him, and brush up on the end of his story (I hadn't read the last 10 or so KOTOR issues). Interesting stuff. Not sure what granting Mettle to the rest of the Mandos does for you though. Guess it makes him useful in a Sith squad via Ulic, or if you use Vergere to Dark Master one of your other Mandos.

I like the different take on the Yammosk compared to the DOTF version. The CE is pretty strong with Spit Poison and Thud Bug. Not sure how much I would go for that.

Overall, seems like you guys had a lot of good ideas. I'm concerned about how much playtesting may have gone into some of them, but for the most part, seems pretty cool.

Well done guys! I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when all of DOTF is revealed. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:27 am 
Big Bad Brad
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LoboStele wrote:
Some things like Karath's and Shimrra's CE may be a tad overpowerd. Hard to say though. Karath's CE would give Accurate to pieces like Dash RS and Cad Bane, which I'm not certain would be good things.



Really?? Not sure why you say that because the way it reads Fringe followers are NOT affected ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:15 pm 
Master of the Order
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Some things like Karath's and Shimrra's CE may be a tad overpowerd. Hard to say though. Karath's CE would give Accurate to pieces like Dash RS and Cad Bane, which I'm not certain would be good things.



Really?? Not sure why you say that because the way it reads Fringe followers are NOT affected ;)


Ooh, Doh! My bad. Nevermind then. Looks good. :) Shields 1 is still pretty strong, but otherwise it really only helps the cheap Sith non-Unique pieces. Guess it leaves things open for bringing Mandos with Ulic or another other possible Sith non-Melee pieces in the future. Would allow things like the Sith Apprentice to use Lightsaber Throw with Accurate. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:25 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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LoboStele wrote:
Would allow things like the Sith Apprentice to use Lightsaber Throw with Accurate. :P



Lol, at first I though "no it wouldn't" but it does generate attacks so yes. Where can I +1 that!!! Maybe on a new Kyle Katarn??

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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:47 pm 
True Bothan Spy
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LoboStele wrote:
Very cool stuff overall. There's at least 3-4 really good ideas there that I think would work well in future V Sets. Some of those characters are definitely ones that I'd like to see at some point as well.


While we have no expectations that any of these ideas would appear in future V-Sets, tell the gang to pillage away! :)

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Some things like Karath's and Shimrra's CE may be a tad overpowerd. Hard to say though. Karath's CE would give Accurate to pieces like Dash RS and Cad Bane, which I'm not certain would be good things. Accurate for some of the cheap Sith pieces would be pretty nice though, like the Sith Operative. Karath's granting Shields 1 to Allies would be brutal as well. Krayt with Shields 1 and VCA 6 would make him a really tough cookie. As would other pieces like Bane or Darth Talon.


As CW points out, Saul's CE is for non-Fringe pieces only. Elitist SOB. :) Primarily he can help out Carth, Bao-Dur, and a lot of non-Uniques. Without forward thinking to the V-Sets, since there are only a limited number of pieces he an affect, I don't think it's too abusive.

We debated the Shields quite a bit. Since Saul can be Sith or Old Republic, we wanted him to offer something defensive to two factions that seemed to desperately need it. Yes, someone like Krayt becomes more of a beast with Shields, but they you're spending 23 points mostly to buff Krayt.

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I like Daala's CE, and we really do need to see more stuff like that in the game, with 'luck' based abilities.


We were pretty happy with Daala as a nice "flavor" piece. I think her CE captures her history in the Expanded Universe.

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Joruus is well done, and reminds me of another version of him that I've seen elsewhere.


I'll be curious to see how close.

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I like that you guys did Saba Sebatyne, but I don't really feel like there's anything special about her. Nothing to make her stand apart as the savage reptilian fighting machine that she was.


Funny you should say that. We spent a lot of time discussing how hard it is to make a stand-out Jedi in the New Republic, especially if you're looking at a character at the master level. We tried a few different approaches, but most didn't capture her properly, made her feel too much like existing pieces, or were too powerful (at one point, I think she had Triple Attack and Ambush). Ultimately, we hung out hat on Double Attack/Twin Attack as her "thing." With Lightsaber Defense (and high HP) she can take a lof of punishment, and her other Force powers give her good mobility or allow her to become a commander. Ultimately, I think, she's a solid combatant who can fill other roles in a pinch... kinda like the character in the books.

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Celeste looks well done and balanced, with a nice way for summoning new Rakghouls. The CE is good for her as well, and I like how it sort of shows the herding aspect of the Muur Talisman's abilities. ;)


I'm glad Celeste looks good. It reached a point where I almost gave up on the hope that we'd have a finalized version of her.

To put it in perspective, the majority of pieces took less than a dozen pages of discussion. Three of them were in the high teens (with Shimrra being the highest, at 19 pages). Celeste, on the other hand, took 28 pages to hammer out.

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I like how you did Vergere, with a myriad of abilities, that don't really seem to have a whole lot of coherence with each other, but signifies the many different masks she wore throughout the series. The CE is a cool one, and an interesting way to represent her leanings toward the ways of the Vong in terms of enduring pain.


Vergere was a bit of a challenge in patience. :)

She's such a rich and mutli-faceted character that most of the initial versions wound up with too much going on. We kept having to cut, and kept having to ask ourselves "Does Vergere NEED this?" Ultimately, we wound up with, as you point out, an eclectic list of abilities that really only have one thing in common: they belong on Vergere.

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I really like the idea with Watto, and the sort of Emergency Life Support for Droids. This could get out of hand with Mouse Droids though, seeing as how those are annoying enough to kill as it is. I think it's a solid design though. Just concerns me that the cost might be a little low. Hard to say though, as overall, he's weaker than Leia Hoth Commnander as far as stats go, but the Salvager SA would certainly be more useful than Leia's CE, especially since he's a Fringe as well. Could be REALLY frustrating in Engineer's Nute Gunray squad, lol.


I can definitely see the potential for abuse with Watto. Perhaps the price should have been a bit higher, but we sort of took the Jarael/Dash/"fan favorite" approach with him and went on the lower end. One thing to keep in mind is that because Salvager is not a CE, the range can't be extended. So using Watto probably means risking him or protecting him.

Quote:
Cassus cracks me up, as it's obvious that you guys had some similar ideas as the V Set team, which is awesome! At the 33 points, he's less of an auto-include as the Mando CIO from DOTF, but he's got other nice uses instead. The extra movement CE is nice, but not sure if the Mandos really need it. They are already highly mobile as it is.


We were in the process of finalizing the wording on Cassus when the CIO previewed. I had to resist the temptation to compare language. :)

In many ways, I think what we were trying to do with our custom set parallels part of the V-Set agenda. Like the V-Set, we wanted to try to make the "lesser" factions more playable. Unlike the V-Set, though, we only had 1 or 2 pieces with which to do it, so in some cases there's not as much impact. With the Mandos, we realized that tempo control was one thing they were lacking... but probably something that they didn't NEED. In studying Cassus Fett's backstory, we discovered that he forced the Republic to over-commit, so many of our ideas revolved around allowing him to control the opponent's choice to some extent. Making him anti-temple seemed a good distillation of this.

As for the commander effect--it's almost like you were involved in the conversation! We knew that Cassus was bringing a lot of goodies to the table, but we also knew he needed a commander effect. We wanted something that wasn't powerful enough to drive his cost up, and also something that demonstrated a little synergy with Mandalore the Ultimate. Although it's costly, I think the 2 CEs present a nice synergy. Use Charging Fire to close and attack, THEN Cassus's CE to retreat a step or two into cover.

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Demagol is awesome, and the upgraded Homicidal Surgery is perfect on him. I was really confused by the Force Point, so had to wookieepedia him, and brush up on the end of his story (I hadn't read the last 10 or so KOTOR issues). Interesting stuff. Not sure what granting Mettle to the rest of the Mandos does for you though. Guess it makes him useful in a Sith squad via Ulic, or if you use Vergere to Dark Master one of your other Mandos.


Again, it's like you were involved in the conversations!

As a huge fan of the KotOR comic, I kept pushing to keep Demagol as accurate in tone as possible, and that actually meant that he might not necessarily work too well with the Mandalorians. What does his commander effect get you in the Mandalorian faction? Absolutely nothing. Indeed, it LIMITS the CEs that work on Demagol himself. But he has good synergy with certain parts of the Fringe (as Demagol did), and if you pair him with Mandalore the Ultimate (again, the two worked together in "real life"), you can build on that idea.

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I like the different take on the Yammosk compared to the DOTF version. The CE is pretty strong with Spit Poison and Thud Bug. Not sure how much I would go for that.


It was definitely interesting to see how different the two different takes on the yammosk were, even though both work with the same core concept.

Thanks for the thoughts! I hope my comments may have clarified a few things.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:52 pm 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Would allow things like the Sith Apprentice to use Lightsaber Throw with Accurate. :P



Lol, at first I though "no it wouldn't" but it does generate attacks so yes. Where can I +1 that!!! Maybe on a new Kyle Katarn??


The first part of Karath's CE only affects followers WITHOUT a Force rating, so the Sith Apprentice wouldn't benefit.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:29 pm 
True Bothan Spy
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Hey, BH! Good to see you!


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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:21 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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Looking back on how long it took us to hash out, finalize, review and then refinalize the cards, its gratifying to note that 11 of our pieces were worthy of mention upon release. It is almost a year to date since we started. We put in a Lot of discussion/work into this.

As for the lack of figures compared to TLT, we had some customizers working on them: we actually began discussions on another 7-8 possible pieces, but frankly we ran out of customizers that were willing to commit the time/effort, and life stepped in once to often. Still, it was a great experience and a lot of fun. I hope they come in handy to any/all.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:13 am 
True Bothan Spy
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I hope you guys don't mind me speaking for the group, but I wanted to put some historical perspective on what we did. If you or BH (or anyone else involved) has a different interpretation, have at it!

Maybe I should have included just how many times real life seemed to bring things to a grinding halt. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:02 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Great work guys, some really creative ideas and well thought out concepts on some of those.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:08 am 
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High praise indeed (especially given the source!). Thank you very much! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:56 am 
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Glad to see out year-long project has been so well received. Twas an honor indeed to have been working with customizers of such experience.

gwek wrote:
I hope you guys don't mind me speaking for the group, but I wanted to put some historical perspective on what we did. If you or BH (or anyone else involved) has a different interpretation, have at it!

Maybe I should have included just how many times real life seemed to bring things to a grinding halt. :)

But we never gave up!

From the very beginning, it was both a ride and a fight. It was that critical point at which the WOTC boards became a ghost town and the game was cancelled that really threatened the project's initiation at all. Luckily, there were a group of us that hadn't forgotten and started the project right up, after many threads of voting and position nomination on WOTC.

Now, here we are, and here it is. Out gift to the community that has kept this game alive and thriving, even when its creators had abandoned it. To all reading this thread, I say enjoy!

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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:19 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Dendrite wrote:

Now, here we are, and here it is. Out gift to the community that has kept this game alive and thriving, even when its creators had abandoned it. To all reading this thread, I say enjoy!


With that, I want to know specifically who all worked on it to the end. You can post or send me a PM. That's the kind of dedication the V-set stuff needs, so I'd like the names :)

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 Post subject: Re: Next Lost Twenty custom set
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:41 pm 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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billiv15 wrote:
Dendrite wrote:

Now, here we are, and here it is. Out gift to the community that has kept this game alive and thriving, even when its creators had abandoned it. To all reading this thread, I say enjoy!


With that, I want to know specifically who all worked on it to the end. You can post or send me a PM. That's the kind of dedication the V-set stuff needs, so I'd like the names :)


We did put a lot of work into the stats, and it was especially difficult, as has been said by Dendrite, gwek, and others. For quite a time, we had only a few people contributing to the discussions on the stats, which probably caused the project to take longer to complete than we would have liked (and would also account for a lack of playtesting with some of the pieces).

Copying from what was posted in the pdf, this is a list of the members that worked on the project (these are the usernames that were used by the members on the discussion boards found at the end of the list; they may use different usernames here):

The New Lost Twenty Design Team
bountyhunter9
Darth Chaos
darthgrievous
Dendrite
fardreamer
generalgrievous
gwek
jhart
jm419
Rogue Saber
saber1
surfrider56
xpraider
Stat Design and Playtesting:
Graphic Design:
Galak Fyyar
surfrider56

http://newswminisdatabase.proboards.com

Thanks for showing so much interest!


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