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 Post subject: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:13 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Okay folks, next weekend I will play in a 200 points tournament and I don't know what to play. I have built 3 squads so far that I all like but I prefer none. Here they go:

Squad 1: (NR; Map: Chancellor's Starship)

Boba Fett, Mercenary - 58
Han Solo, Galactic Hero - 50
Mara Jade, Jedi - 45
Lobot - 27 (MTB engine)
Wicket - 8
3 Ugs - 9 (only have 3)
1 Ewok - 3

Good:
- init control
- great dmg output potential
- Override

Bad:
- San Hill
- Echo Base
- no MTB killer
- fragile beatsticks


Squad 2: (Seps; Map: Rancor Pen or Chancellor's Starship)
Boba Fett Mercenary - 58
Darth Tyranus, Legacy of the Dark Side -49
Darth Sidious - 36
Lobot - 27 (MTB engine)
San Hill - 10
Wicket - 8
3 Ugs - 9
1 Ewok - 3
(possible substitute for Wicket, the Ewok and 1 Ug would be a Kel Dor to use Pawn of the Dark Side on, so he can move up to 24 squares and then booms through MTB)

Good:
- init control
- denies other MTBs
- activation control
- MTB can off San
- Sid can off MTB (Pawn of the Dark Side)
- Force battery for Tyranus
- Intuition to rush into gambit zone and force opponent to come towards you
- Override

Bad:
- low dmg output (at least to my taste)
- Echo Base
- few fighters
- Force Immunity (Vong, Thrawn)


Squad 3: (Seps; Map: Rancor Pen)
Boba Fett Mercenary - 58
Darth Tyranus, Legacy of the Dark Side -49
Aurra Sing, Jedi Hunter - 41
Darth Sidious - 36
San Hill - 10
2 Ugs - 6

Good:
- not too many minis can be targeted on Echo Base in round 1
- Force battery for Tyranus or Aurra (depends on opponent)
- Intuition to rush into gambit zone and force opponent to come towards you
- denies MTB
- possible San Reserves
- high dmg output potential
- an early loss of 1 character doesn't kill the whole squad

Bad:
- no init control
- activations
- no Override


Please, tell me which one you'd prefer!

Tell me what you'd change!

Tell me if you'd take another map!

Tell me... tell me! :D

Cheers,

IkG

EDIT:
I just came up with a 3rd Sep squad:

Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith - 61
Darth Tyranus, Legacy of the Dark Side - 49
Aurra Sing, Jedi Hunter - 41
Zuckuss - 22
Human Bodyguard - 11
San Hill - 10
2 Ugs - 6

This gives me 1 more activation, Bodyguard vs BH and the like, a more potent Sid who can play battery for Aurra AND Tyranus and can also off San via Force Lightning. With Zuckuss I keep Intuition. Damage potential should be about the same as squad #3, but it subs greater fire power with a better Lightning and Triple Melee. Zuckuss himself isn't that good apart from his Intuition, but who knows, he could pick off weak Uniques and scrubs. Map will most likely be Rancor Pen again. Input welcome!

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:54 am 
Jedi Knight
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The most important question is "what do you think you will be up against?"

Out of the squads you posted, I liked squads 1 and 2 more than the other two. If you expect to see the MTB than either of those would limit his effectiveness.

With the NR squad, I have found that you are paying 50 points for Han, and he has a hard time hitting anything. Yes I know you should be able to use his cunning attack every time, but still I have used him before and I must have had cold dice or something, but he would just not hit. Another thing, is I like BF Merc, but I found that he dies fast. You move into position and pull off the cunning shot, but more often than not he is left out in the open for your opponent to get LOS on. However the damage output on the NR squad is awesome if you can get all those cunning attacks off.

I like the Sep Squad (Squad 2) if you plan on keeping your opponent from using his MTB. Tyranus is a beast and between him and Fett you can put a hurting on any of your opponents beat characters.

But once again it all depends on what you expect to see.

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:18 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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I expect at least 1 NR build possibly including Han, GH. NR is very popular nowadays. Further we have one player who likes Luke's SS and the Thrawn-Uggernaut-Veers-Jabba combo, so I guess he will play one of those (before I came back to the scene his Uggernaut squad won everything, but he didn't use it since then because we played era districted tournaments for a while).

I personally like to use Intuition so much because it causes most opponents to engage my squad since I can reach the gambit zone fairly easy (only Chancellor's Starship could cause problems). The REAL problem is that some of our top players really like the idea of playing Echo Base and multikillers. I would bet my hiney that the above mentioned player will try the Uggernaut combo on that map for a quick victory. That is why I am reluctant to play the MTB or too many scrubs. The map is already bad in 100-150 points games, but in 200 the Uggernaut throws his big, fat shadow over everything. It literally becomes a killing field. The easiest way to deal with him would be SS, but that could lose horribly against some of the other players.

That is why I want to play Merc, too. He can move behind a wall before anybody shoots. Also I seldomly use his Double Attack early in the game because he is so vulnerable. I rather use the Intuition to move out, shoot once and run back into safety. The Double is for when the enemy squad arrived and my melee pieces take the pressure from Boba's shoulders.

Good thing with the NR squad is I could kill an Uggernaut before he even moves, but then there still is the other one... :( One other option to secure my safety for a short while would be to play the Rodian BSV and Jaina instead of Han. That way Accurate Shot can't hurt me that badly anymore. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:40 am 
Master of the Order
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If you're afraid of the Uggernaut squad, then an MTB engine with 2 Cunning Attackers will be your best friend. Even if you do end up losing Lobot or your MTB on the first round, you will almost certainly wipe out something key to your opponent's squad.

Honestly though, if they are running the traditional Thrawn, Jabba, Veers, Uggernaut squad, I might be tempted to use my first round activations to kill one of the commanders rather than the Uggernauts though. With both Han and Boba, if you miss even one shot against an Uggernaut, you won't kill it, which will spell trouble for you. But if you shoot at Veers or Jabba or Thrawn (if they don't protect them well enough) then you should be OK, and stand a chance to really hamper the Uggernauts effectiveness. Honestly though, the real key in that situation would be the map/side roll. If he wins map and picks Echo Base, then make him set up first. Then you can put Han/Boba wherever you need to in order to get the best first round shots, and you might even be able to set up your Lobot/MTB in a relatively safe spot too.

The only thing I would worry about with Squad #1 is how to deal with your own MTB. You can bring a Gonk, but that only gives you about 5 rounds of init control. If you go with MTB and Ugs, you have like 9 or 10 rounds, which if you're playing with a time limit should be fine, but could get you into trouble depending on the opponent.

If you really are worried about the Uggernaut squad, then your Squad #1 is the only one that wuold be able to easily deal with it on Echo Base, IMO. The other two will have a rough time to start with. However, if you get to force your opponent to set up first, you might be able to make it work out OK.

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:47 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Well, if I let him set up first, he will surely take the side where he can hide some minis behind the plateau. Most likely these will be Mas, Thrawn and Veers. So I might kill Jabba before he gets to move. I see that I need protection for the fodder if I run the MTB.

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:31 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Okay, so far you convinced me to the NR squad. I kicked Han out of the team (sorry, pal) and after some points tweaking I came up with this:

Boba, Merc - 58
Mara, Jedi - 45
Lobot - 27
Rodian BSV - 24
1 Human Bodyguard - 11
1 Corellian Pirate (aka Baby Han) - 10
Wicket - 8
1 Bespin - 5
3 Ugs - 9
1 Ewok - 3

To kill a commander I need to inflict up to 80 points of dmg on the squad in question. Boba can deal 60 easily and "Baby Han" can deliver the other 20 with the help of the Bespin, (Wicket,) the MTB, the Bodyguard and the Rodian. If I kill Jabba, cool, if I kill someone else, cool too because I activate a lot of minis for combined fire. I might as well set the Rodian up front since he can't profit from his own CE and give him the Bodyguard to keep him safe for a while. The key to victory though is to kill Veers and I doubt that the other player will position him in the open for me.

What do you think of this build? Is dropping Han in favour of the Correlian and Rodian too much?

BTW, with a little luck the Rodian provides me with more MTB fodder. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:41 am 
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I kill Gungans wrote:
If I kill Jabba, cool, if I kill someone else, cool too because I activate a lot of minis for combined fire. I might as well set the Rodian up front since he can't profit from his own CE and give him the Bodyguard to keep him safe for a while. The key to victory though is to kill Veers and I doubt that the other player will position him in the open for me.


ummmm forgive me for missing this, but do you plan on Combining fire with all those "scrubs" to finish off the commander after Boba puts a hurting on him?

if so that is a lot of characters activated and sitting in LOS to your opponent. Who's to say he wouldnt turn and pick off your guys and in turn cut down on your MTB fodder.

....idk maybe I am missing it!!

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:07 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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I have 2 problems:

1. I don't have much cover anyway, so LOS is nearly unavoidable.

2. As long as Jabba lives he has Cunning Attack.

Now the first thing I do is to shoot with Boba, of course, who stays behind the own lines in cover where he can't be targeted (thank you Rodian dude!). Then I try to kill off the commander with the Corellian who needs people who combine fire with him. Naturally the Rodian will be one of them since he can be picked off by the Uggernaut anyway. So incase I don't get to shoot Jabba I am still facing 2 Uggernauts with Cunning Attack. As soon as the Rodian dies (I hope he will last for a round) my other minis will be free for the killing. So it is better when they are activated, so my opponent doesn't benefit from Cunning Attack. They are too numerous to hide them in time anyway.

Anyhow, I came up with even another squad after all this talk about Rodians and Uggernauts! :D

Boba, Merc - 58
Viper -46
Lobot - 27
Rodian Vigo - 24
Nyna - 18
3 Imperial Pilots - 24
1 Ug - 3

Reins: BoShek, Weequay Thug and another Ug.

Now in this squad only the Viper is a legal target. I have 2 shooters who can deal up to 60 dmg each with considerable attacks and I have Recon (I may even roll the 11 to bring in the MTB engine then! :D ). I know it is low on activations, but it looks fun. ;)

I really hate the week before a tournament. Too many squads on my mind. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:18 am 
Master of the Order
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Be careful here....because now you're getting into territory where you are tayloring the squad to counter one specific thing, and in the end, it may cost you as you won't be able to handle many other squad types instead. If you run the BBSV, as long as Boba activates first, and has some place with cover, then the Uggernauts will be force to shoot him, and without a decent amount of luck, they won't put THAT much damage on him. The way you have rebuilt the squad now is VERY susceptible to San Hill squads, since you won't be able to bring an MTB yourself while San would be able to without any worry.

To top it off, if you are really worried about the Uggernaut squad on Hoth, then I might suggest running one of the Luke's Snowspeeder/Han Cannon type squads. Luke's Speeder can get shots on pretty much any square on the map in the first activation of the game. Combined with a Bothan Noble or Princess Leia, that's an easy 80-90 damage. Now, of course, it isn't Accurate shooting, so you'd have to be careful about your targetting.

You might also consider a Rebel build with Boba Merc and Han RH. Then Boba can dish out that 80 damage all at one time with Han's CE.

As long as you get to set up 2nd on the Echo Base map, it won't be too bad, because you could put all of your scrubs in place to get some combined fire. But there are TONS of places, even on the Echo Base map, where a piece like Jabba could be out of LOS of your pieces on a first round activation. The only way you'd be able to pick off Jabba in that kind of situation is if your opponent is dumb enough to drop him right down the lane along one of the sides of the building.

Might also try going for Mas. ;)

A Towed Boba Merc could possibly do the trick in that sense, if you wanted to go Republic Build. Not as good overall synergy though.

EDIT: you typed your response while I was typing this. :P Your 2nd squad is better, but like I said, it may be tayloring to combat one specific build too much. Hard to say without knowing what your local meta is like. The problem with your other build, if the Rodian is the only legal target for the FIRST Uggernaut....what happens if the first one is lucky enough to kill the Rodian? Now, all of your other pieces get blasted by the 2nd Uggernaut.

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:45 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Well, on Echo Base he can't hide Veers, Thrawn, Mas AND Jabba from me. If he hides him behind the building, I can still shoot diagonally at him (Accurate Shot lets me take care of targeting problems). I have checked this. There is hardly a square for him to hide.

The second squad has the huge advantage that the Viper, Nyna and the Rodian take care of that build alone. The good thing is that the Viper is no fallover itself and can dish out a lot of dmg. Boba takes care of the guys hiding in the back that haven't activated yet. Against other squads I can use Boba to lure the enemy troops out into the kill zone of the Viper (Intuition is my friend, I loved to play Zuckuss when BH was released :D ). In extreme cases I could even play the MTB engine though that depends on squads and maps, but vs tank Sith it may be useful. I think I will dust off the Viper again and get some fun with it. I always wanted to play the Imperial Pilots anyway! Hope the Empire doesn't let me down.

Thank you for the good discussion. If you have any other ideas, please let me know! Otherwise I will let you know whether the tournament ended :DS2: or ~DSBoom . :P

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:00 pm 
Jedi Knight
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I kill Gungans wrote:
I really hate the week before a tournament. Too many squads on my mind. :P


yeah I know this feeling. The "do I tech out against what my opponents might play" feeling. :P

I have a 100 pt DCI event this afternoon....hopefully I choose wisely!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:43 pm 
Master of the Order
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I kill Gungans wrote:
I always wanted to play the Imperial Pilots anyway! Hope the Empire doesn't let me down.


Your local meta must be a lot more relaxed than mine. I haven't seen an Imperial Pilot on the table outside of a sealed event. And even then, I think people usually have better options in their sealed boosters, lol.

Viper squads are ALWAYS deadly against heavy shooter squads, and would be especially frustrating for a Uggernaut squad, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:27 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Well, the meta isn't THAT relaxed down here. Mostly I have to dominate my opponents by experience and personal cunningness. Unfortunately that 1 year break took a lot away of that, so I have to keep studying maps and different metas. The pilots are only playable, if they can't be targeted - and that is what this squad gives me. They can combine fire and heal, if neccessary, so they can be useful. I don't want the Viper to only use its shields. Against melee squads it should also be able to hit something before the enemy is upon me. ;)

@simone: Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:01 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Umm, quick question: I think about using Ozzel instead of the Ug and a Pilot to make sure melee squads don't bumrush me. Of course Ozzel is easy prey on Echo Base. Can anybody give me feedback, if they think it is wise to do this? I really have no idea how many Echo Base players I will face at the tournament.

Thx!

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:50 pm 
Master of the Order
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Um....if you're worried about Echo Base, then Ozzel is the last piece you want in your squad. On Echo Base you need to be able to quickly move your pieces up behind the central building so they don't get pummeled. If you DO end up facing the Uggernaut squad, Ozzel will just make things worse for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:43 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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That is generally true, but I can't be targeted properly anyway, so all I have to lose is Ozzel (and a few hit points on the Viper). My fear with this squad is to be hopelessly outactivated against other squads, if I don't play Ozzel. If a melee squad outactivates me and moves its minis safely after I am done, my Viper won't get enough shots off to be useful, or not? My biggest problem is that I don't know the meta anymore. That and the bazillion different Force Pushs which always kill me because I mix them up and suddenly get ambushed by a bad surprise... :(

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:48 am 
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Well, the 'meta' at 200 points is much like it always has been: a LOT less definitive than at 100 or 150. There are still a myriad of squads that compete quite well at the 200 point range, and IMO, it is virtually impossible to prepare for them all. I know at my LGS, I see quite a bit of NR and/or Rebel squads at 200 points, and lately, have seen the double Push squad a few times (VAR and Luke HPU) so, like you said, I've had to watch out for that. Obviously, with your Viper Droid, non-attacking abilities like Push and such will be your biggest fear.

I see your reasoning for Ozzel, and it's fairly solid. I'd go with whatever you think works the best. Something I just thought of though....Might be worth working in Deliah Blue instead of the 3 Pilots though. You get the same amount of healing option, though you lose a bit of combined fire help. But she makes an EXCELLENT secondary Accurate attacker in a pinch.

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:41 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Well, this tournament had the worst outcome for me that I ever experienced: 5th of 8 and 1 victory out of 3 games.

The problem wasn't so much the squad though. My first loss based very much on the fact that my opponent managed to crit my Garindan with his 50 hp mini (after he won init), so I couldn't combine fire with Boba to off that mini in return and severly hut another. That player used a Jedi squad with 5 melee pieces and won map choice (Chancellor's Starship). So I could say that the loss was unfortunate, but acceptable since I always have to expect a lucky roll of my opponent.

In round 2 I faced a Mandalorian squad that wasn't too well built really (Mandalore and shooters). I still lost though I won map choice (Rancor Pit). The cause: My opponent failed 3 saves in the whole game!!! He didn't fail 1 shield save and only 3 of his Evades (he played with Gunslingers also). The dice were so lopsided, that was it on Vassal everybody would say "oh, don't worry, it is Vassal, the dice sometimes go that way here". I was never so frustrated after a match since I only lost by time and my opponent was maybe 30 points ahead of me. I think a new player in my place might have sold all his minis after this game or dropped from tournament.

The last game didn't count. It was a new player with few minis and less experience, so I won't go into further details.

All in all I must say that the build was still solid. It was only Lady Luck that farted in my face today. Maybe next time it will be the other way round.

Well, at least I got my 4th Ugnaught as booster pick. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Need help on 200 points squad! Don't know what to play!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:14 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I'm right there with. Some days I can go really high in a tourney, and other days I can be near the bottom. Doesn't matter if the squad is awesome, it all depends on the roll of your dice (ugh, had several dice problem also in the last month) as well as your opponents luck with the dice.

I kill Gungans wrote:
The last game didn't count. It was a new player with few minis and less experience, so I won't go into further details.


Sadly, those are the kind of games that helps restore confidence. Now when its a brand new player that had help creating their squad and they whoop you, you really need a confidence booster. That happened to me, I had the worst dice roll ever and someone who'd been playing the game for under a month and was half paying attention beat me. Then again, I did kinda play half her squad since she wasn't paying attention so it was really me against me with her rolling her own dice, lol. Her dice were better than my dice =o/ Now, lets all pray to the mighty dice gods!


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