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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:41 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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joelker41 wrote:
With the exception of urbanjedi's lancer squad, and the YoBuck squads all the regional winners were tempo controlled.


But that's over half of the regional winners???? How can you just say, "with the exception" of over half???? Further, did you look at top 4s? I also played in two regionals, and I saw several other squad types that for a variety of reasons (not squad strength) did quite well, even if they didn't win.

I did great with my Imperial squad - 3-2 - ran into two of the worst possible match ups in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, and Jonny took 2nd with a similar idea at Chicago. You can ask several people, but because of personal circumstances, I did not run what I believed was the best Imperial 200 right now, and that one did not include Arica. A version of what I believed was the "best" imperial build was also the winner in Missouri - but I think you forgot that one.

Lou went 3-2, and then 4-1 with JWMs and Yoda GM in two different regionals. He made the top 4 in one case, and not in the other. He was capable of winning both events with it, tempo control was not the reasons he did not win - that comes from Lou's own mouth about how his days went, and from watching him play it. He lost to Tim's Lancer in Chicago, and to Jason's Lancers in Michigan, not to tempo.

The "yobuck" squads which you cleverly lumped into one, were not at all the same, other than Yoda. I'm not even sure any of the winners were the same as any of the others, even once? I know an Anistap version won California, a Jar Jar and Rex won Racine, a Plo Koon Rex won ATL, and I think you used Dash and Anakin right?

In Racine, the 4th place squad was an Imperial squad without Ozzel. Had the player not had to leave the event, he might well have won that one. As it was, tempo control went 1-3 in the finals, and Yoda went 3-1. And the one loss was me to my friend Matt, and everyone agreed that the one critical mistake I made was the match, and that was due to lack of practice and preparation on my part, not squad strength.

I am curious though, you mentioned as your suggested change, having 8 point disruptive for other factions. That's curious as that does nothing to counter tempo control at all. So perhaps you overstated tempo as the "worst" problem the game has earlier? :) After all, your first solution - given of your own accord - has nothing to do with it, but an entirely different issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:45 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
joelker41 wrote:
With the exception of urbanjedi's lancer squad, and the YoBuck squads all the regional winners were tempo controlled.


But that's over half of the regional winners???? How can you just say, "with the exception" of over half???? Further, did you look at top 4s? I also played in two regionals, and I saw several other squad types that for a variety of reasons (not squad strength) did quite well, even if they didn't win.

I did great with my Imperial squad - 3-2 - ran into two of the worst possible match ups in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, and Jonny took 2nd with a similar idea at Chicago. You can ask several people, but because of personal circumstances, I did not run what I believed was the best Imperial 200 right now, and that one did not include Arica. A version of what I believed was the "best" imperial build was also the winner in Missouri - but I think you forgot that one.

Lou went 3-2, and then 4-1 with JWMs and Yoda GM in two different regionals. He made the top 4 in one case, and not in the other. He was capable of winning both events with it, tempo control was not the reasons he did not win - that comes from Lou's own mouth about how his days went, and from watching him play it. He lost to Tim's Lancer in Chicago, and to Jason's Lancers in Michigan, not to tempo.

The "yobuck" squads which you cleverly lumped into one, were not at all the same, other than Yoda. I'm not even sure any of the winners were the same as any of the others, even once? I know an Anistap version won California, a Jar Jar and Rex won Racine, a Plo Koon Rex won ATL, and I think you used Dash and Anakin right?

In Racine, the 4th place squad was an Imperial squad without Ozzel. Had the player not had to leave the event, he might well have won that one. As it was, tempo control went 1-3 in the finals, and Yoda went 3-1. And the one loss was me to my friend Matt, and everyone agreed that the one critical mistake I made was the match, and that was due to lack of practice and preparation on my part, not squad strength.

I am curious though, you mentioned as your suggested change, having 8 point disruptive for other factions. That's curious as that does nothing to counter tempo control at all. So perhaps you overstated tempo as the "worst" problem the game has earlier? :) After all, your first solution - given of your own accord - has nothing to do with it, but an entirely different issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Echo wrote:
And I have faith that the designers know that, too, so hopefully they will be able to do as much as they can with 60 pieces to close that gap.

And the secret 61st piece that can be found in the bottom of Chex cereal boxes (start looking now for the golden ticket). :Jawa:


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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:27 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
Echo wrote:
It's like when the discussion about GOWK took place, and people in favor of banning him claimed that if we did so we would have a varied, fresh meta. The meta was probably MORE varied than if he had never been banned/changed, but the meta was still not that varied (it was Slow Cannon pretty much all day).

Classic problem. You've identified the problem, but associated it to the wrong cause - which is what has happened repeatedly with tempo control as well.

The meta was better with Slow Cannon in all honesty, it was fairer. I understand that most people don't see the difference, but that's fine. But you also ignored that we were still stuck playing 150pts, and we had a map list that heavily favored it. We were unable/unwilling to tackle both GOWK and the map list at the same time, especially whenever I mentioned the maps, players, including almost all competitive players before Gencon, were much in favor of the open maps - particularly Taris - which I hated from relatively early on - and Dean had little choice but to let it go until the players saw it (unfortunately - Gencon was the only time that would happen).

Further, Slow Cannon is a particular problem when there is nothing to stop slow play. We also knew that ahead of time.

For some reason, some of you think we were wrong on GOWK, but then love how open the meta is now, as if the same people, ideas, and understandings were not present creating both environments. It's like we were morons last year (ignoring all the problems we had to deal with and being unfair to the circumstances of the time), and get 0 credit for the things that have been done this year. Do you all seriously think that without slow play being addressed, and the map list being addressed, and 200 becoming the standard that we would have had any of this??? Lol if you do.

I bring this up because it relates to tempo control as well. There are people who think like Joel characterized (and rightly so in this case) - that they can only play Tempo to win. I disagree with that, and so do a great number of other players - just look carefully at the regional lists. There were plenty of non-tempo squads. Tempo alone isn't the issue. It's one issue, and I agree, V-sets should deal with it. But the claims being made for it are just beyond reasonable.

Swarm control figures (Yoda on Kybuck, Lancer, Arica, AniStap) keep tempo control in check. In a meta where at least 1/2 of the players are convinced that "I must play tempo control to win", then clearly these counter figures are also a premium. That should be obvious. That's what a "meta" game is. But what are we really talking about here? Is Ozzel a particular problem? Not really, so ignore him. Did any of you complain about San Hill prior to Engineer doing well with it? I certainly saw no threads about it. So this is about one figure, and one figure only, Dodonna.

Here's the kicker, Rebels aren't winning any more regionals than other factions. Even if you factor in the NR, it still isn't that significant. Not for the amount they are being played anyways. To say that "tempo control" is the root of all evil just isn't an accurate portrayal of the situation. Let's go back to the GOWK example shall we. The argument against the ban from regional results were that GOWK wasn't winning everything. But ignored were the relatively few players running it at many events, and the quality of the player doing so when it was. When you factored in the amount it was being played, the results started showing a different picture. Here you guys are doing the exact opposite. Even though something like 50% of the field is running tempo control, and that about 50% of the top 4s have had it, that shows it's abusive.... Hardly. That's exactly what you would expect from 50% of the field running it. When GOWK was being run in regionals by 2/16 players, and taking 2/4 top 4s, but losing the final, that clearly showed it wasn't a problem, but now the evidence can be used the other way....

So if I argue that Tempo control isn't the only issue, and it isn't nearly as much of an issue as some of you are claiming, then what else is it you might ask? To me, the lesser factions each face a number of issues, and tempo control is only one of those. But as I mentioned in my response to Joel, some of the factions have no problem with tempo, like Mandos. Movement breakers is equally as much of a problem as tempo for the lesser factions, and perhaps if you all were looking at it, you might realize it's probably stronger. Variety of pieces to choose from makes the combinations limited, which is another major issue. Finally, the biggest problem they tend to have, is the ability to do things as cheaply as the other factions. Most everything that the lesser factions have, is also in the big 5, but cheaper or better.

For example, the R7. many of you thought fringe override was the best solution. Wrong. Guess which faction can now abuse override the best - it's the Republic. How can that be, they don't have Dodonna? Largely because of movement breakers, they can eliminate opposing door control and use their own cheap override to win games, in ways that were not nearly so easy before the R7. So its the combination of factors that make the lesser factions less competitive, never one thing.

Pretending it's all about Tempo control is a political move to try to isolate one cause - but anyone who actually analyzes it, knows better. You are quite clearly wrong if you think tempo is the only, or even primary cause of this. You take away tempo control, and all you do is make high activations more important, and stronger again. I don't find that any less abusive in all honesty. A much better track would be to look at a wider selection of issues with V-sets and continue to work on them over time, not all in one shot solutions, with one set.


...wait, did you quote my post because you think I disagree with any of that? Maybe I didn't explain myself enough, I wrote that at work on my iPhone, so I was trying to keep it relatively short. First off, I 100% agreed with the banning of GOWK. I'm big into the statistics of this game, and understand how insane the numbers were regarding his survivability. I've always been firmly in the pro-ban camp when it came to GOWK. I also understood that the maps were a problem. Hell, you were at the table Wednesday night at GenCon last year when I said that if it weren't for Teth and Taris, I'd probably play NR in the championship.

The point of my post was more or less the same point as your post: removing (or terribly nerfing) tempo control won't outright fix anything. Tempo control on its own isn't the problem. The Override example is perfect; the clamoring for cheap Fringe override existed for a while, because people believed it would balance the factions. And on paper it makes some sense. Rebels and Republic had a big advantage by being the only factions with cheap override. Giving it to everyone didn't balance it, though. Lets say in the first V-set there is a cheap Fringe commander with Dodonna's CE (or, alternatively, Dodonna, San, and Ozzel get banned or nerfed badly). Will OR, Sith, Vong, or Mandos suddenly shoot to the top tier of competitive play? Of course not! Will the gap between them and the other factions close somewhat? I think so. But just like banning GOWK wasn't a magic fix for making the best meta ever, nerfing tempo control isn't a magic fix now. It is an issue, but it's not the only one or the biggest one.


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Echo wrote:
And I have faith that the designers know that, too, so hopefully they will be able to do as much as they can with 60 pieces to close that gap.

And the secret 61st piece that can be found in the bottom of Chex cereal boxes (start looking now for the golden ticket). :Jawa:


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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Echo wrote:
Engineer wrote:
Echo wrote:
And I have faith that the designers know that, too, so hopefully they will be able to do as much as they can with 60 pieces to close that gap.

And the secret 61st piece that can be found in the bottom of Chex cereal boxes (start looking now for the golden ticket). :Jawa:


Inflatable Rancor!!!!


Thats the worst idea EVAR! Youd have people shaking the boxes in the aisle, and if you found one, after shaking the box, youd get home to nothing but crumbs left, lol. Glass Jabba would be a much better idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:13 pm 
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Disturbed1 wrote:
Thats the worst idea EVAR! Youd have people shaking the boxes in the aisle, and if you found one, after shaking the box, youd get home to nothing but crumbs left, lol. Glass Jabba would be a much better idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:23 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
A version of what I believed was the "best" imperial build was also the winner in Missouri - but I think you forgot that one.


It was the runner-up, actually.

I do agree with your larger point, though--I've been impressed with the diversity of squads people have used to do well at regionals--I mean, there have been five different factions win thus far, correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:40 pm 
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Echo wrote:
The point of my post was more or less the same point as your post: removing (or terribly nerfing) tempo control won't outright fix anything. Tempo control on its own isn't the problem. The Override example is perfect; the clamoring for cheap Fringe override existed for a while, because people believed it would balance the factions. And on paper it makes some sense. Rebels and Republic had a big advantage by being the only factions with cheap override. Giving it to everyone didn't balance it, though. Lets say in the first V-set there is a cheap Fringe commander with Dodonna's CE (or, alternatively, Dodonna, San, and Ozzel get banned or nerfed badly). Will OR, Sith, Vong, or Mandos suddenly shoot to the top tier of competitive play? Of course not! Will the gap between them and the other factions close somewhat? I think so. But just like banning GOWK wasn't a magic fix for making the best meta ever, nerfing tempo control isn't a magic fix now. It is an issue, but it's not the only one or the biggest one.


Ding ding ding!! Right on the money! And this is basically the approach the V Set team has used, from what I understand. They understand that something does need to be done for the other factions in order to help them handle the tempo control problem. But I can guarantee you, that they are trying to come up creative ways to handle it, and it is NOT a Fringe piece that either grants a San/Dodonna/Ozzel-style CE or nerfs those CEs. From what I've seen so far, I REALLY like the ideas they've come up with. I think it will work FANTASTICALLY. I honestly think, for the first time, we could possibly have a very balanced game with nearly all of the factions viable.

Now, we still have plenty of play-testing to do to make sure everything is balanced, but so far, they have great ideas to address the Tempo control issues AND help give the minor factions a little oomph as well to be more competitive. Let me put it this way, as a wee bit of a teaser....The plan is, that the top 5 factions only get an average of 4.8 pieces each in this set, while the lesser 4 factions and Fringe get an average of 7.2. The emphasis is definitely on the lesser factions and making them as competitive as everything else, without making the OT or non-EU folks feel left out either. I think all said and done, you guys will be really pleased. I know I'm super excited, and likely going to get in trouble one of these days for giving too many teasers. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:05 pm 
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buttcabbge wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
A version of what I believed was the "best" imperial build was also the winner in Missouri - but I think you forgot that one.


It was the runner-up, actually.

I do agree with your larger point, though--I've been impressed with the diversity of squads people have used to do well at regionals--I mean, there have been five different factions win thus far, correct?


Ah that's right. :) But yeah, you got the point anyways.

All I can say is having 5 relatively equally competitive factions, and having between 5-10 different squads competitive for each of those factions, not including basic minor tweaks, is by far the best situation the game has ever in it's lifetime been in. And that's only representing tier 1, not even mentioning tier 2 stuff - just the things we've seen at regionals.

That's what I'm trying to say, is it perfect? Of course not. Is it anywhere close to past issues? Not really. I still think there is work to be done on Dodonna, but to say it's the worse thing in the game, yada yada is just not being honest with the game's history, or it's current moment of competitive play.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:13 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
1. Does tempo make the bottom half of factions currently unplayable in a competitive game?


No. But it hurts them at the very highest level of play. Even without tempo control they still wouldn't tend to do well so dealing with it in isolation. This assumes that one accepts that every faction must be able to compete at the highest levels of play--while I'm not opposed to that, I've never consided it necessary either.

Quote:
2. Does having tempo mean that every faction should have it, or a way to counteract it? (example. Republic has yobuck, Seps have Lancer as tempo counters of sorts)


Every faction should NOT have it. Nor should every faction have a direct counter. But having some semi-counter that's a way to reduce it's impact would be a reasonable way to go.

Quote:
It comes down to a lack of playtesting from WotC to obviously.


It doesn't really. This makes the assumption that their desire was to create 9 equally competetive factions for high-end tournement play and that was never really their primary goal (and I'd guess never really even a secondary goal.) It may be what tourney players wanted, but that's not enough to lay the blame on playtesting.

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reread my post as Sarcasm


I think you should reread that online discussion primer you posted on Bloo. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:42 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
That's what I'm trying to say, is it perfect? Of course not. Is it anywhere close to past issues? Not really. I still think there is work to be done on Dodonna, but to say it's the worse thing in the game, yada yada is just not being honest with the game's history, or it's current moment of competitive play.



NickName wrote:
This assumes that one accepts that every faction must be able to compete at the highest levels of play--while I'm not opposed to that, I've never consided it necessary either.



I think both of these things are very important for people to keep in mind. I don't know what everybody's history is, but let me just say that I feel downright 'old' sometimes in relation to this game, having played it for 4 years now. The ups and downs of the competitive side of the game, and how open or closed the meta has been over that time.... Bill is NOT exaggerating when he says that the meta RIGHT NOW, is one of the best that we've ever had. Thinking back to prior years of GenCon, we never had 5 factions that were able to compete at the top tables. The best it has been was 4 (Imps, Rebels, Seps, Republic), and even that was sort of losely defined, as it was really only 1 squad archetype in each of those factions that were viable. At least now, in the Rebels you have both Levitation builds and Speeder squads. In the Imps it's mostly B&B style builds, but there's SO much variety in those now between Lord Vader, Vader Sith Apprentice, and Vader Scourge. Republic used to be all just JWM swarms, maybe with some Boba BH thrown in, but now you see things like Yobuck, GOWK/GMY & JWMs, Gen Skywalker swarms, etc. Seps have options in both the Droids and Living realm. And for the first time, New Republic is truly a force to be reckoned with. Back in 2008 some of us ran NR, but the only viable option there was the Mara/Han/MTB builds. Now you can go with either the Kyle or Han-centric builds, with lots of variants in there that are all decent.

Granted, not all of those variations in each faction are absolute Tier 1, but many are close, and in the end, as pointed out, it has given us one of the most diverse fields of play we've ever seen. Is it as good as it could be? Well of course not, and I think that's why a lot of the 'newer' players tend to have complaints about it still. Those of us who have been around for a while are grateful for where things are at the moment. :)

So, that said, do I think that every faction needs to compete? No, I would never expect to see the Top 8 at GenCon be from 8 different factions. That would be cool, but I don't honestly expect that. However, I do think seeing all 9 factions in the Top 16 or 32 should not be too hard for the design team to pull off, and it is something that hasn't happened yet in the history of the game. Overall, all I would like is to have the factions at least semi-balanced so that I can plop down a competitive squad from any faction, and no that I have at least somewhat of a chance based on my playing skill. Right now, I can't really say that.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:12 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
And this is basically the approach the V Set team has used, from what I understand. They understand that something does need to be done for the other factions in order to help them handle the tempo control problem. But I can guarantee you, that they are trying to come up creative ways to handle it, and it is NOT a Fringe piece that either grants a San/Dodonna/Ozzel-style CE or nerfs those CEs. From what I've seen so far, I REALLY like the ideas they've come up with. I think it will work FANTASTICALLY. I honestly think, for the first time, we could possibly have a very balanced game with nearly all of the factions viable.

Now, we still have plenty of play-testing to do to make sure everything is balanced, but so far, they have great ideas to address the Tempo control issues AND help give the minor factions a little oomph as well to be more competitive. Let me put it this way, as a wee bit of a teaser....The plan is, that the top 5 factions only get an average of 4.8 pieces each in this set, while the lesser 4 factions and Fringe get an average of 7.2. The emphasis is definitely on the lesser factions and making them as competitive as everything else, without making the OT or non-EU folks feel left out either. I think all said and done, you guys will be really pleased. I know I'm super excited, and likely going to get in trouble one of these days for giving too many teasers. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:34 am 
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I think one thing that frustrates a lot of players about tempo control is that the factions that DON'T need it have it. What if vong, OR, mandos and sith had it, and NR, Rebel, Imp, and seps didn't? Well - republic would probably mop up, but that aside at least the other factions would be playable. Yes those other factions have additional issues, but giving the already dominant factions tempo control was insult to injury.

You can't give a faction everything. One of the best things about this game is that different factions have a different playstyle and feel. I wish dodanna and ozzel never came around - cause san hill was a unique advantage. Seps have never been uniquely dominant, before the lancer San was the only thing making them competitive. One of the best special abilities in the game we never see because it is only on a piece in the OR (shatter beam). Once we get the OR competitive it's great that they have an advantage in that category over other factions.

I agree with the assessment that top tier squads right now have either tempo control or mass kill effects (strafe, galloping attack, blaster barrage+sniper, unleash the force) like Tint said. But if you examine closer - I think the greater of the two right now is the latter: Mass kill effects. With the rule changes and map changes, you have to be able to kill a bunch of characters fast. Most of the top squads have it and need it. I know it's now a conscious choice in my squad design these days - and I am not the only one. Deri's Chicago regional winning NR squad used Anakin (an overlooked piece before this) almost solely for this purpose. Mara dies killing a juggernaut, and Anakin comes in for a mass scrub clean up. Lancers do all the work for the seps. Yodabuck kills a lot of scrubs and Dash/Gen Skywalker/Plobuck do the heavy lifting. Arica kills most the stuff under 40 HP and Bane kills the big targets. You get the point. This is the case in most winning squads with or without tempo control.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:14 am 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
Patience is the way of the Jedi? But what if your sith?
Nevermind I don't know if I want your answer to that.


Even the Sith have patience. Look at Palpatine. How many years did he wait to destroy the Jedi Temple and take control of the Republic? I'm sure there are other examples in EU - one that stands out for me is from KotoR II when G0T0 talks about how Revan understood that "victory at all costs" is reckless and not a true victory.

Sorry to derail but I wanted to address that. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:34 am 
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I want to chime in here for a moment. Without going into a lot of detail about the V-Sets (sorry to hear there are people railing against something a handful of people are doing for the benefit of the community on their own time, but what else is new? :roll: ), yes tempo control is being addressed.

As long as I have a say about it - I cannot speak for the others working on this - tempo control is NOT something that will be doled straight out to every other faction in carbon-copy CE style. Instead, we are taking a fresh look at the minor factions, establishing unique flavor, and trying to come up with concepts and ideas that give them balance but at the same time originality.

One of the things I have thought a lot about as part of my design effort/input is: When you set tempo control aside, what is holding the non-core factions back? Well, if you read my "thesis" that I wrote a few months ago, you probably have a pretty good understanding of what my opinion is, and where my focus is. I've tried to keep the flavor concepts in mind as I suggested design ideas on certain pieces. Not everything I have suggested has made the cut - nor should it - and I would add that f&t and Engineer have presented their own ideas that fit very well into the themes that I had in mind. We are all on the same page about this game, and I think that will be a benefit for people who want to keep playing with the new cards we invent.

So the point is that while you guys will see answers to tempo control that we hope will balance things out somewhat, tempo control will remain a viable threat. It's also our intent that people who are used to playing the core factions and winning will find their games against the minor factions a bit more challenging than they were with WotC designing things. In fact, there are a couple of pieces that at first glance look average but will prove very tough to contend with against certain power staples. That's all I intend to say on the subject right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:38 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
sthlrd2 wrote:
Patience is the way of the Jedi? But what if your sith?
Nevermind I don't know if I want your answer to that.


Even the Sith have patience. Look at Palpatine. How many years did he wait to destroy the Jedi Temple and take control of the Republic? I'm sure there are other examples in EU - one that stands out for me is from KotoR II when G0T0 talks about how Revan understood that "victory at all costs" is reckless and not a true victory.

Sorry to derail but I wanted to address that. :)

Very true. Perhaps another way to say it is that Sith have patience born of cunning malice, whereas Jedi have patience born of peace.


Anyway, back on topic: I think Tim is right, that the mass-kill effects are more impactful than lots of activations. But I wonder why that is. I think maybe it's because mass activations are so key: if you don't have tempo control, you have to have a method of dealing with it, or you're in trouble...hence the value of mass-kill effects. So in one way, it seems like a big reason for the importance of mass-kill effects is simply because they allow you to overcome the activation deficit and/or out-activate your opponent (ie, Yobuck, most Lancer builds). Some of the mass-kills do heavy damage as well, which makes them more valuable, but I think anyone will agree, for example, that an Arica barrage is far more effective against a high-activation squad than it is vs a low-activation squad; vs a high-activation squads, she has 15+ potential targets, and many of those targets will have 40hp or less. But in a low activation beef squad, it's unlikely that Arica will have even close to the same impact. The same can be said of Yobuck and Lancer too, though there are ways (because of movement breakers, which is another topic) to make them more effective vs heavier beef. So anyway, what I'm getting at is that right now mass-kill effects ARE more valuable than high-activations...but that's only because high activations are so dominant. If the high-activation squads start to decrease in power, then there will be less use for mass-kill effects. I don't think Arica and Yobuck would be so dangerous if there was an activation limit at 200pts; the Lancer is already iffy because of the numerous bad matchups it has.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:20 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
buttcabbge wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
A version of what I believed was the "best" imperial build was also the winner in Missouri - but I think you forgot that one.


It was the runner-up, actually.

I do agree with your larger point, though--I've been impressed with the diversity of squads people have used to do well at regionals--I mean, there have been five different factions win thus far, correct?


Ah that's right. :) But yeah, you got the point anyways.

All I can say is having 5 relatively equally competitive factions, and having between 5-10 different squads competitive for each of those factions, not including basic minor tweaks, is by far the best situation the game has ever in it's lifetime been in. And that's only representing tier 1, not even mentioning tier 2 stuff - just the things we've seen at regionals.

That's what I'm trying to say, is it perfect? Of course not. Is it anywhere close to past issues? Not really. I still think there is work to be done on Dodonna, but to say it's the worse thing in the game, yada yada is just not being honest with the game's history, or it's current moment of competitive play.



If you remember Dean's post, I think it is pretty well understood that this squad took 2nd because of interuptions which prevented Dean from doing what he originally planned on a single move which completely cost him the game. Although Dean does not have credit for winning that regional, I will say that the same squad in good hands is just as good as any other regional winner. I guess I'm saying, I see your point as clear as day, Bill. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:12 pm 
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lonescout wrote:

If you remember Dean's post, I think it is pretty well understood that this squad took 2nd because of interuptions which prevented Dean from doing what he originally planned on a single move which completely cost him the game. Although Dean does not have credit for winning that regional, I will say that the same squad in good hands is just as good as any other regional winner. I guess I'm saying, I see your point as clear as day, Bill. :D



So what's your explanation for why I also beat him in the prelims at the same tournament? Look, the finals matchup was rushed for time, and Dean's phone was definitely ringing off the hook, and I'll agree that the final game didn't prove much other than that I'm capable (and, I suppose, that the ERC+Crix+Bothan+Mouse Droid combo is capable) of taking advantage when an opponent gives me a big opening (which, to be fair, is not necessarily something all players can do, especially in a high-pressure game). If your point is just that Dean's Thrawn/Scourge/Cad squad is top tier, I agree--it's a beautifully constructed squad, and Dean's an extraordinary player. But it seems like your lurking implication is that the results of the MO Regional aren't worth taking seriously, and I have to call BS on that. You don't go 6-0 at a regional where no one else does better than 4-2 (and where you beat the runner-up twice) without building a good squad and playing it well, especially if that regional is in a part of the country that has a fairly high number of good minis players.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:07 pm 
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I will say Dodonna is the only issue. Of the five pieces we have, only 2 show up regularly, with the third being a bit more rare, and the last two rarely ever showing up.

My only fear is that the lesser, non-problem ones will get nerfed along with Dodonna. San, Ozzel, Tarkin, and Veed both have sever drawbacks to them that keeps them balanced.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:50 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
I will say Dodonna is the only issue. Of the five pieces we have, only 2 show up regularly, with the third being a bit more rare, and the last two rarely ever showing up.

My only fear is that the lesser, non-problem ones will get nerfed along with Dodonna. San, Ozzel, Tarkin, and Veed both have sever drawbacks to them that keeps them balanced.


excellent point


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