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Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
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Author:  Weeks [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
I just wanted to open up a discussion about tempo control. Currently 4 factions have access to it,NR, Rebels, Imperials, and Sepretists. Heres what i want answered

1. Does tempo make the bottom half of factions currently unplayable in a competitive game?

2. Does having tempo mean that every faction should have it, or a way to counteract it? (example. Republic has yobuck, Seps have Lancer as tempo counters of sorts)

Dont get me wrong i like tempo control, but i also like playing every faction whenever i can, and let me tell you there is just no way sith, vong, or OR can compete with tempo. Maybe i just havent figured it out but alas tempo control is insanely powerfull and yet not everyone has access to it. Override used to be only accessable to rebels and Republic until Lobot came out. Then Uggies were created for the other factions to have door control and now every faction has r7s. The Game has evolved to the point where it is now where the vong guy and the sith guy have cheap access to override and satchel charge. So have we come to a point where every faction should be able to run with san, ozzel, or dodonna? Or am i overreacting to the power of tempo?.......I dont think i am.

anyone have anything to add?
Author:  DarthEwokFett [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
just change it to where we only activate 1 char a turn.
Author:  LESHIPPY [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
Patience padawan….patience
Author:  Disturbed1 [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
1)I think it depends on the point limit, to a degree. Tempo control isnt, for obvious reason, nearly as prevalent in 100pts as it is in 200pts, and while you do see it a good bit in 150, it isnt everywhere.

In 100 you still see San or Dodonna played a bit (though I dont think ive ever faced Ozzel at 100), though its not entirely neccessary. Bane +6 Ugo Demos is still playable enough, as is Flobi + Rex.

I just checked the Top Squads part on Bloomilk, and the I had to look down to #11 in the 100pt format to find a tempo piece (Ozzel in "Almost Not Fair"). The top 10 are all factions that have access to tempo, but none of those squads are using it.

2) No, by doing so, you make it a bigger issue than it is now. When Thrawn first came out, people were screaming from the rooftops about how his init control/swap was broken, and how every faction should have access to the same thing. If that had happened, I believe the state of the game would be worse than it is now, and things would be far more limited.

By making it so only a few of the factions have access to tempo/ counter-tempo then you guarentee different play styles for the factions, which is somewhat the point of the game. Who would wanna play a game where all the factions were alike, except with different faces on the pieces?

Right now, yes, tempo is somewhat dominant, but as of right now, again going by the Top 200pt Bloomilk squads, 3 of the top 10 dont use either tempo/ counter-tempo (power of the Gungans, Obi-Wookiees, and Accurate Mandos).
Author:  swinefeld [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
My thoughts:

1) Pretty much yes.

2) No to every faction having tempo, yes to every faction having something to help counteract it.

Now I'll just sit back and wait to see what the 1st V-set has to say about it. :mrgreen:
Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
I agree with Swinefeld.

I DO think it's a problem, and I think that every faction should have a way to deal with it. Should every faction have their own tempo control piece? Absolutely not.

But I also agree with Leshippy here....Patience. I feel confident in saying that the V Set Design Team is VERY aware of this problem, and are working to do what they can about it. I just hope everybody likes whatever they come up with. It's very tough to come up with a way to somewhat nerf tempo control without eliminating it from the game altogether, but I think they are on the right path to do just that. :)
Author:  Engineer [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
What? I've never heard of this problem. :roll:

I have the solution. A 2 point fringe mini that nerfs tempo control. But that will only make playing Uni Lobot a must in all squads so the few format becomes 173 points.

Go with the above comments. Patience is the way of the Jedi.
Author:  sthlrd2 [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
Patience is the way of the Jedi? But what if your sith?
Nevermind I don't know if I want your answer to that.

Anyways on topic, everyone was yelling about thrawn (and he's still used in every competative imp squad today. Well the newer thrawn but still thrawn.)
that was when there were more official sets to come out and people wanted change right then. But now the game is at an end (officially) and no change can be made.
Plz don't get me wrong, I'm all for the v-sets and am excited to see what they have (hopfully fixing the butchering that they did to the vong. IMO that is the faction that was made completly wrong.)
but I know a couple people who I get together with to play with about once every couple months who feel that the game is finished and there eyes v-sets are unofficial and those pieces will never be legal because of that and only to be used for fun. In that perspective then yes tempo control is a problem but there is really no reason to complain about it now as it can never be fixed (except unofficially).

I like the v-sets and can't wait to see them. The only problem I have with them is with the computer. Right now I don't own a computer and get online through my iPod. I will have to rely on friends to print them out for me. Not a huge issue as I'm sure someone can do it for me but it just takes a little away from it. Being able to get it on your own right away and thinking of squad ideas before you even see your friends. Now I will have to wait to see everything while everyone else has squad ideas running through there heads. Like I said not a big issue, it just takes away from it a little.

I most also add that the people I play with who has this negative view on the v-sets also think that yoda on kybuck is the most broken piece in the entire game and I also got yelled at a couple of days ago when I used it in a squad against them. They hate that you can gallop 20-26 squares. They feel as if you should only be able to gallop your speed so 10-16 because the rules say you can move your speed and atk or double speed and not atk. I tried to explain that it's a bonus to him moving just like cunning is a bonus to your atk/damage rating. He still disagrees and says by that argument that someone can play rampaging wampa and ambush on double speed cause it said this character can move and make all of his atks against someone who has not activated. He said it's worded the same the wampa can move and make his atks and yobuck can move and atk everyone. I've tried many ways to explain. Key word in the ambush is character can move and make IT'S atks but to no avail I then tried to explain that yobuck was not broken and some ways to beat him and he argues that just cause you can beat somthing with a certain squad doesn't make not broken. By this point I was done talking and just agreed not to play yobuck against him. I wish I could get him to understand but it's not worth it to keep arguing with someone who is so stubborn.

Sorry for the long post I guess I had that all pented up inside me for awhile and needed to get that out. So anyways, here's hoping the v-sets can do the impossible and by that I mean make everyone happy.
I am excited just been stressed lately so nevermind me.
Author:  Weeks [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
I know you V-set guys know what your doing :) i just wanted to vent a little bit of frustration. How can a 9 point piece (dodonna) make one faction so darn strong and no one else be able to react to it? GLad to hear you guys are addressing this and agree with my thoughts on the subject too.
Author:  joelker41 [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
Disturbed1 wrote:
1)I think it depends on the point limit, to a degree. Tempo control isnt, for obvious reason, nearly as prevalent in 100pts as it is in 200pts, and while you do see it a good bit in 150, it isnt everywhere.

In 100 you still see San or Dodonna played a bit (though I dont think ive ever faced Ozzel at 100), though its not entirely neccessary. Bane +6 Ugo Demos is still playable enough, as is Flobi + Rex.

I just checked the Top Squads part on Bloomilk, and the I had to look down to #11 in the 100pt format to find a tempo piece (Ozzel in "Almost Not Fair"). The top 10 are all factions that have access to tempo, but none of those squads are using it.

2) No, by doing so, you make it a bigger issue than it is now. When Thrawn first came out, people were screaming from the rooftops about how his init control/swap was broken, and how every faction should have access to the same thing. If that had happened, I believe the state of the game would be worse than it is now, and things would be far more limited.

By making it so only a few of the factions have access to tempo/ counter-tempo then you guarentee different play styles for the factions, which is somewhat the point of the game. Who would wanna play a game where all the factions were alike, except with different faces on the pieces?

Right now, yes, tempo is somewhat dominant, but as of right now, again going by the Top 200pt Bloomilk squads, 3 of the top 10 dont use either tempo/ counter-tempo (power of the Gungans, Obi-Wookiees, and Accurate Mandos).


Bloomilk top squads are in no way accurate assessments of meta. so throw that out.


Tempo control is one of the worst things about this game from a competitive AND casual perspective. It eliminates half the factions from competitive anything.

People say it isnt an issue, isnt needed, and can be countered. So what do they play at regionals? Tempo control.

It is a subject people are divided on, and claiming V sets will save a severely imbalanced game is a stretch.

It comes down to a lack of playtesting from WotC to obviously.

But the game is on its last legs if not itsvery last and a V set from a small group wont save a nationally bungled game design issue.

Not that I dont thinkV sets are a good idea, it is just hard for a half dozen or so people who are allowed design input simply cant do more than band aid, and if figures in a V set are to competitively costed just to compensate for WotC's mistakes I will probably skip playing this game post gencon.
Author:  Echo [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
I agree that tempo control is very strong, and most competitive builds will use it. However, many people (including people in this thread) either imply or outright say that tempo is "the" thing keeping the "lesser" factions from competing, and I don't agree with that. If dodonna, ozzel, and San didn't exist, do you realy think the Sith would win the championship? Sure, they might have better odds, but they still wouldn't be as good as the top factions. That gap would still exist, albeit a little smaller. While it is a good thing that that gap is smaller, it seems like some people expect that if tempo control got "fixed" somehow, all factions would be playable. It's like when the discussion about GOWK took place, and people in favor of banning him claimed that if we did so we would have a varied, fresh meta. The meta was probably MORE varied than if he had never been banned/changed, but the meta was still not that varied (it was Slow Cannon pretty much all day).

I'm glad that the Vset designers are considering this and want to shrink that gap between the top and bottom factions, but it will take a lot more than just fixing tempo control. And I have faith that the designers know that, too, so hopefully they will be able to do as much as they can with 60 pieces to close that gap.
Author:  Disturbed1 [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
@ joelker: I didnt say Bloomilk was any way of even vaguely gauging what is top in the meta, and if youve got a better way or place that rates squads let me know and I'll go by that. But at the current time, I think thats about the only thing that rates squads, and it is, at least from a casual glance, somewhat accurate.

If you wanted to argue that variant X of Plobuck isnt in there, well, thats a variant on a squad type. The squad type is there, and is therefore represented.

I do understand what your saying though. End/

I agree with Echo that Tempo is not what keeps some factions down. Lack of love from WotC is the big thing that hampers the bottom half of factions from real playability. While it may not seem fair, and really isnt to players, they never said they were targetting this one niche in the market, and would have alienated alot of potential buyers if they didnt have big name characters from the movies in just about every set.

As for sthlrd2's comment about the V-sets just being for fun, I kinda agree with that. I admire the hard work you guys are putting into them, and am thankful for it, but its just not the same as having something official from WotC.
Author:  LESHIPPY [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
Have faith in what teh V-set can do. Will it fix everything? No. Will it be a huge step in the right direction? Yes.

The designer are aware of the problems tempo control causes. They are looking at creative solutions to fix it.

Keep in mind that WOTC was trying to sell product. So making pieces that people see in the movies or in the cartoons made alot of sense from a strictly marketing view. People will buy what they know. The designers of the V-set don't have to worry about selling pieces. They just have to improve the game. While this is a huge undertaking, they don't have to worry about a boss saying "George would like to see this piece made, so make it"

The designers are also moving back to the 60 piece sets. This is giving them more characters to use in each faction, with a focus on the factions that need help, mainly Vong, Mandos, Sith, and Old Republic. While all factions are getting a little something. The designers are listening to you folks in the community and are keeping your suggestions in mind.

Once the set it released later this year, the pieces will be legal. People can argue about it all they want. But if you show up and play in the 2011 regionals or the 2011 Gencon you will run into pieces from the V-set.
Author:  billiv15 [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
joelker41 wrote:
Tempo control is one of the worst things about this game from a competitive AND casual perspective. It eliminates half the factions from competitive anything.
Oh please, stop the absolutely ridiculous exaggerations. You cannot prove this to be true, because many of us have done plenty of tests to show this isn't the only problem for the lesser factions (also understanding that the lesser factions don't all suffer from the same things).

Case in point, everyone likes to claim Mandos can't deal with tempo control. That is complete bunk. It has absolutely nothing to do with that. Mandos aren't competitive in the top end meta right now, because a Lancer can smoke the entire squad, and they can do nothing about it. I will play anyone of you with Mandos against your tempo squad, and I promise you, I will compete just fine.

joelker41 wrote:
People say it isnt an issue, isnt needed, and can be countered. So what do they play at regionals? Tempo control.
Bull**** - I played Republic and Imperial, neither with Tempo control. Jonny did as well. So did plenty of other players.

joelker41 wrote:
It is a subject people are divided on, and claiming V sets will save a severely imbalanced game is a stretch.
Um, who gives a crap? Who is "divided"? On what? What does that even mean? And why on earth does it matter in the least? People can play or not play the game how they want, just like they have always been able to do. DCI was nothing but a way to play organized play. That's all the V-sets will do. But to make it sound like anything has changed because now Gamers will be in charge, is just a way to make up divisions that aren't there. If you want to play "official" (did you play by Gamers/DCI rules at this year's regional? - That was completely run, supported, and organized by Gamers, DCI was not used, nor was anything from WotC). Are you playing at Gencon? Same deal, using Gamers/DCI rules, and so on. If you don't want to use V-sets in the future, or want to quit altogether, go for it. If you want to play Regionals and Gencon in 2011, you will have to deal with V-sets, and custom maps, and both will be legal. What is there to argue?

joelker41 wrote:
It comes down to a lack of playtesting from WotC to obviously.
Ok, that an several other factors, but again, what's the point of saying so? I don't see anyone arguing that WotC playtesting was awesome...

joelker41 wrote:
But the game is on its last legs if not itsvery last and a V set from a small group wont save a nationally bungled game design issue.
Oh God the Drama... Why be so negative? If you really believed this to be true, why are you wasting your precious time trying to convince others of the "truth"? Just move on and stop posting if that's what you really believe. Arguing about it and spreading negativity to people who want to keep playing the game is rude. I don't think you are a naysayer, but you seem to be headed that way with this post.

joelker41 wrote:
Not that I dont thinkV sets are a good idea, it is just hard for a half dozen or so people who are allowed design input simply cant do more than band aid, and if figures in a V set are to competitively costed just to compensate for WotC's mistakes I will probably skip playing this game post gencon.
Ok, good by then. Please refrain from posting further since you aren't interested in anything we do anyway. I no longer am interested in your opinion on anything we are doing, and I will delete it if I see it posted, since you've already told us you think we are crap, and can't do anything about it, and that you won't play it. That to me, is a clear declaration that your opinion is no longer relevant in anyway. Good bye Joel, it was nice knowing you back when you were a positive influence on the game and community. :)
Author:  thereisnotry [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
For what it's worth, I entirely disagree that the Bloomilk squad ratings are even remotely somewhat accurate, in and of themselves. To the extent that the bloomilk squad ratings coincide with the actual meta, it is by accident. Even a stopped clock (analog) tells the right time twice every day. If you want an accurate assessment of what the top squads are right now, read the Regionals results, and look at the winners and runners-up. Those are the top squads, and have been played by the top players. Those squads are the cream of the crop. And what do all those squads have in common? They either have tempo control (often with high acts too, such as Deri or Tim's winning squads), or else a way to quickly and effectively eliminate their opponent's activations (Lancer, Yobuck, Arica). Unless I've missed one, there was not a single Regional winner without either of those elements. Those are the top squads, period.


Anyway, back on topic for the discussion:
I dislike Tempo Control as much as anyone else. I remember a few months ago on the WotC boards when we were asked which 3 pieces we would change, and one of the top players said he'd make it so that San, Ozzel, and Dodonna had never been made. I agreed with that sentiment entirely.

However, let's not forget what the game was like before any of these tempo control pieces: high activations still won the day. The whole reason why the original B&B was so deadly was because no other squad could match its activations while still having the firepower necessary to win a match. That was, until Sithborg and IKG championed the cause of San Hill, who outactivated B&B and therefore nerfed the squad's greatest strength. As those two players used to say, "B&B may be the gatekeeper, but San Hill holds the key." :)

I say all that simply to make this point: Just removing tempo control (or bringing it under control) will not solve the issue; we need to find some way to deal with high activations too. If we don't do this then we'll just be back to the days of B&B where a certain amount of activations are necessary if a squad is to be competitive, but this time there will be no San to counter it. There could be a number of effective avenues for this:

-creative V-set piece design (I trust the V-set devs too, though we need to be patient because 1 v-set won't solve all issues)
-a Floor Rules change, which limits the activation counts at each format (ie, 12 acts at 200, 10 acts at 150, etc)
-a game rules change, which limits each player to only activating X amount of figures in a given round, and the rest of the pieces take no action (though Corruption saves, etc would still need to be made)

I'm sure there are other and perhaps better solutions than the ones I'm suggesting here, but I'm convinced that we need to do more than just bring a counter to Tempo Control. I'm not saying that this all needs to happen overnight, but rather I'm simply forecasting the future. ;)
Author:  joelker41 [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
billiv15 wrote:
joelker41 wrote:
Tempo control is one of the worst things about this game from a competitive AND casual perspective. It eliminates half the factions from competitive anything.
Oh please, stop the absolutely ridiculous exaggerations. You cannot prove this to be true, because many of us have done plenty of tests to show this isn't the only problem for the lesser factions (also understanding that the lesser factions don't all suffer from the same things).

Case in point, everyone likes to claim Mandos can't deal with tempo control. That is complete bunk. It has absolutely nothing to do with that. Mandos aren't competitive in the top end meta right now, because a Lancer can smoke the entire squad, and they can do nothing about it. I will play anyone of you with Mandos against your tempo squad, and I promise you, I will compete just fine.

joelker41 wrote:
People say it isnt an issue, isnt needed, and can be countered. So what do they play at regionals? Tempo control.
Bull**** - I played Republic and Imperial, neither with Tempo control. Jonny did as well. So did plenty of other players.

joelker41 wrote:
It is a subject people are divided on, and claiming V sets will save a severely imbalanced game is a stretch.
Um, who gives a crap? Who is "divided"? On what? What does that even mean? And why on earth does it matter in the least?

joelker41 wrote:
It comes down to a lack of playtesting from WotC to obviously.
Ok, that an several other factors, but again, what's the point of saying so? I don't see anyone arguing that WotC playtesting was awesome...

joelker41 wrote:
But the game is on its last legs if not itsvery last and a V set from a small group wont save a nationally bungled game design issue.
Oh God the Drama... Why be so negative? If you really believed this to be true, why are you wasting your precious time trying to convince others of the "truth"? Just move on and stop posting if that's what you really believe. Arguing about it and spreading negativity to people who want to keep playing the game is rude.

joelker41 wrote:
Not that I dont thinkV sets are a good idea, it is just hard for a half dozen or so people who are allowed design input simply cant do more than band aid, and if figures in a V set are to competitively costed just to compensate for WotC's mistakes I will probably skip playing this game post gencon.
Ok, good by then. Please refrain from posting further since you aren't interested in anything we do anyway. I no longer am interested in your opinion on anything we are doing, and I will delete it if I see it posted, since you've already told us you think we are crap, and can't do anything about it, and that you won't play it. That to me, is a clear declaration that your opinion is no longer relevant in anyway. Good bye Joel, it was nice knowing you back when you were a positive influence on the game and community.



Wow captain overreaction...I didnt criticize the V set people at all lol I said if all the V sets can wind up doing is just undercosting minis I probably wont play, and simple undercosting wont fix stuff. I havent seen a single mini from the V sets, I have no idea what they look like. I never said I would quit this game over anything but recosting/undercosting happens, I didnt say it but I assumed you guys were going deeper than that.

Yelling and swearing at me over that? This game is in trouble and the next few months are going yo determine the future of this game, and blowing up abd swearing at me for stating an opinion and what I COULD do IF something happens isnt a reason to cuss me out period.

I havent passed judgement on anyone or anything, I said players say tempo control isnt an issue, I didnt say who. If you read my post I said there were REASONS why the game is imbalanced abd I believe tempo control is the current primary reason Vong, Mandos, Sith, OR (my favorite faction if you recall) cant compete. Its an opinion. Thats it. I never said it was the V set peoples fault, quite the opposite I said WotC's fault for tempo control.

I never criticized anyone on Gamers in public, ever. Now you just swore and blasted me when I thought my transparency with Vassal snd sSkype I thought you would at least read and not just assume I am a doomsayer.

Gosh dude, all the times I have stood up for you, dean, and Gamers and I get this? Really?
Author:  billiv15 [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
Echo wrote:
It's like when the discussion about GOWK took place, and people in favor of banning him claimed that if we did so we would have a varied, fresh meta. The meta was probably MORE varied than if he had never been banned/changed, but the meta was still not that varied (it was Slow Cannon pretty much all day).

Classic problem. You've identified the problem, but associated it to the wrong cause - which is what has happened repeatedly with tempo control as well.

The meta was better with Slow Cannon in all honesty, it was fairer. I understand that most people don't see the difference, but that's fine. But you also ignored that we were still stuck playing 150pts, and we had a map list that heavily favored it. We were unable/unwilling to tackle both GOWK and the map list at the same time, especially whenever I mentioned the maps, players, including almost all competitive players before Gencon, were much in favor of the open maps - particularly Taris - which I hated from relatively early on - and Dean had little choice but to let it go until the players saw it (unfortunately - Gencon was the only time that would happen).

Further, Slow Cannon is a particular problem when there is nothing to stop slow play. We also knew that ahead of time.

For some reason, some of you think we were wrong on GOWK, but then love how open the meta is now, as if the same people, ideas, and understandings were not present creating both environments. It's like we were morons last year (ignoring all the problems we had to deal with and being unfair to the circumstances of the time), and get 0 credit for the things that have been done this year. Do you all seriously think that without slow play being addressed, and the map list being addressed, and 200 becoming the standard that we would have had any of this??? Lol if you do.

I bring this up because it relates to tempo control as well. There are people who think like Joel characterized (and rightly so in this case) - that they can only play Tempo to win. I disagree with that, and so do a great number of other players - just look carefully at the regional lists. There were plenty of non-tempo squads. Tempo alone isn't the issue. It's one issue, and I agree, V-sets should deal with it. But the claims being made for it are just beyond reasonable.

Swarm control figures (Yoda on Kybuck, Lancer, Arica, AniStap) keep tempo control in check. In a meta where at least 1/2 of the players are convinced that "I must play tempo control to win", then clearly these counter figures are also a premium. That should be obvious. That's what a "meta" game is. But what are we really talking about here? Is Ozzel a particular problem? Not really, so ignore him. Did any of you complain about San Hill prior to Engineer doing well with it? I certainly saw no threads about it. So this is about one figure, and one figure only, Dodonna.

Here's the kicker, Rebels aren't winning any more regionals than other factions. Even if you factor in the NR, it still isn't that significant. Not for the amount they are being played anyways. To say that "tempo control" is the root of all evil just isn't an accurate portrayal of the situation. Let's go back to the GOWK example shall we. The argument against the ban from regional results were that GOWK wasn't winning everything. But ignored were the relatively few players running it at many events, and the quality of the player doing so when it was. When you factored in the amount it was being played, the results started showing a different picture. Here you guys are doing the exact opposite. Even though something like 50% of the field is running tempo control, and that about 50% of the top 4s have had it, that shows it's abusive.... Hardly. That's exactly what you would expect from 50% of the field running it. When GOWK was being run in regionals by 2/16 players, and taking 2/4 top 4s, but losing the final, that clearly showed it wasn't a problem, but now the evidence can be used the other way....

So if I argue that Tempo control isn't the only issue, and it isn't nearly as much of an issue as some of you are claiming, then what else is it you might ask? To me, the lesser factions each face a number of issues, and tempo control is only one of those. But as I mentioned in my response to Joel, some of the factions have no problem with tempo, like Mandos. Movement breakers is equally as much of a problem as tempo for the lesser factions, and perhaps if you all were looking at it, you might realize it's probably stronger. Variety of pieces to choose from makes the combinations limited, which is another major issue. Finally, the biggest problem they tend to have, is the ability to do things as cheaply as the other factions. Most everything that the lesser factions have, is also in the big 5, but cheaper or better.

For example, the R7. many of you thought fringe override was the best solution. Wrong. Guess which faction can now abuse override the best - it's the Republic. How can that be, they don't have Dodonna? Largely because of movement breakers, they can eliminate opposing door control and use their own cheap override to win games, in ways that were not nearly so easy before the R7. So its the combination of factors that make the lesser factions less competitive, never one thing.

Pretending it's all about Tempo control is a political move to try to isolate one cause - but anyone who actually analyzes it, knows better. You are quite clearly wrong if you think tempo is the only, or even primary cause of this. You take away tempo control, and all you do is make high activations more important, and stronger again. I don't find that any less abusive in all honesty. A much better track would be to look at a wider selection of issues with V-sets and continue to work on them over time, not all in one shot solutions, with one set.
Author:  billiv15 [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
joelker41 wrote:
Gosh dude, all the times I have stood up for you, dean, and Gamers and I get this? Really?

Your defense wasn't necessary - reread my post as Sarcasm and the way you would debate with your friends arguing in a long car ride :) That's how it was written and meant to be read. I assumed you would see it that way :) Please don't take it personally, and I can delete it if it bothers you for some reason.
Author:  joelker41 [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
With the exception of urbanjedi's lancer squad, and the YoBuck squads all the regional winners were tempo controlled.

Hell if I could change onething about this game I would change disruptivw allocation, 8 point Juno is just disgusting lol. Put her in Scott's multiple sorcery squad for instance. Lancer would be rough still but he would be in better shape.

Love Kyle JBM though, fits the character perfectly.
Author:  LESHIPPY [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Tempo Control getting out of hand?
billiv15 wrote:
joelker41 wrote:
Gosh dude, all the times I have stood up for you, dean, and Gamers and I get this? Really?

Your defense wasn't necessary - reread my post as Sarcasm and the way you would debate with your friends arguing in a long car ride :) That's how it was written and meant to be read. I assumed you would see it that way :) Please don't take it personally, and I can delete it if it bothers you for some reason.


Glad to read this. You had me wondering for a bit.
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