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 Post subject: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:06 pm 
Jedi Battlemaster
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I mean, sure we've come 2 sets since last year's GenCon.. where the Lancer ran ragged in the 200 point competition.

How do you think its doing today?

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:37 pm 
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not quite as good since now yobuck can kill it in one activation with momentum but still seems really good at the 200 pt format.

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:02 am 
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I think you need to play them in pairs.


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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:20 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I think with the change to SSM they got a little extra bump. GOWK/Flobi has no defense against them at all. I agree with Engineer, using 2 is the best way to go. With 2 Lancers you can kill GOWK/Flobi in 2 activations if your opponent sets up poorly and you're willing to lose 1 Lancer to him.

Now I'm not saying they're competitive, just that they might be able to come back with GOWK back again.


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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:27 am 
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yup 2

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:26 pm 
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You'd really think about running 2, rather than a Pawned Lancer?

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:32 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I'd rather do 2 than a Pawned just because it gives greater manueverability. With a Pawned you need to have it set up just right for it to work, whereas with 2 you can do the hit and run out of LoS. I've done the Pawned before and found the hardest part was making sure Sidious could get LoS when I run across to the other side. Plus if you have a freak accident and lose a Lance with the Pawned then you're screwed. And by freak accident I mean setting up for init, losing, your opponent getting Lobot CLO reserves, and bringing in T3 and a Jawa Scavenger. You just lost your Lancer. I had that situation happen at GenCon with my opponent having 2 Lancers, boy did I luck out with that (which is why it's a freak accident, lol). Just because of that experience I feel 2 Lancers are much better than a Pawned Lancer.


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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:50 pm 
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Well, the normal course of action is Pawn first.. Lancer strafes 24, Lancer turn, Lancer Strafes back to safety. You've just done 80 damage to whatever you ran over, and left no targets for your enemy to shoot at. Next turn Gha heals the 10 damage and you're good to go. Rinse and repeat.

Lancer Strafe is very fragile no doubt, but can really ruin your opponent's day.

If you allow the Jawa to take a clear shot at your Lancer.. then you've done something wrong already.

The only issues a Lancer runs into are:

-Riposte (KKJBM, Vader SotJ)
-Djem So (Vader SotJ, Gen Skywalker)
-Self Destruct (KD BH, Vong)
- and to a lesser extent Strong Accurate Shooters with Init Control
    I would list that as:
    Zuckuss BH boosted by GWOK
    BF Merc with init control
    BF MC with init control
- You can argue Distruptive.. but you can more often than not just run around Kyle, or kill the disruptive piece.
- YoBuck with Momentum

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:01 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Ruhk wrote:
Well, the normal course of action is Pawn first.. Lancer strafes 24, Lancer turn, Lancer Strafes back to safety. You've just done 80 damage to whatever you ran over, and left no targets for your enemy to shoot at. Next turn Gha heals the 10 damage and you're good to go. Rinse and repeat.

That is the logical way to run a Pawned Lancer but not everyone does it that way, it seems ;)

Quote:
If you allow the Jawa to take a clear shot at your Lancer.. then you've done something wrong already.

My opponent had set up 2 Lancers behind an open door and hoped to win Init. Now that I think about it, he did win Init but I got Reserves and he hoped by moving his Lancer first the door could close and he'd be safe. Not with Override and a Scavenger, lol.


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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:38 pm 
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I've seen the Lancer do some serious damage to a squad.

Here's the squad (200 points) in question (I maybe leaving some pieces out)
IG Lancer Droid 31
General Grievous: Droid Armor Commander 57
Battle Droid Officer 9
EG-05 Jedi Hunter Droid 27
A4 Series Lab Droid 16
*Filler*

It is affectionately called the "Lawnmower Squad", with the Jedi Hunter Droid known as the "weed whacker".

I beat it a couple weeks ago with this Rebel squad:

Gen Crix Madine
Gen. Rieekan
Princess Leia
Han Solo, Smuggler
Luke Skywalker, Rebel Commando
Master Kota
Elite Rebel Commando (2)
Ugnaught Demolitionist (2)
Mouse Droid

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:39 pm 
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I think the various Rebel squads, and some of the new Republic swap squads really make it tough to win with the Lancer. You have to be a top level player to consistently beat other players with the Lancer, because it's not that difficult to position your pieces in such a way that it's difficult to get the full 24-square strafe, or avoid Disruptive, or other things like that. The Rebels with their ERCs are particularly tough, because, while they need some big rolls to do it, one or two hot shots will completely screw you over. And a pawned lancer, having to cross through Disruptive, can't even kill an ERC because of their 50 HP. It can be done, but wise Rebel players really make it tough.

Republic with Yobuck is dangerous too, IMO, because it often contains Gen Sky and Panaka, which means that if your Lancer was within 24 squares of Yobuck in order to sweep him, it'll be fairly easy to move up Skywalker, then swap in Yobuck, and then charge those 16 squares for the easy kill.

My biggest problem with the Sidious/Lancer squads is that usually once you lose your Lancer, you're in big trouble. The 2 Lancer variant can handle losing a Lancer a bit easier, but you often have to approach much closer to the enemy so you can Strafe and hide all at once, since you don't have the Pawn option.

Maybe I just haven't seen it run effectively very much. Granted, I had to play against Matt's Pawned Lancer squad in the Team Tourney last year, and while it wasn't pretty (he did run it effectively), I gave him a pretty rough go of it, and we were on HIS map (ROTS Hardboard), and this was before Gen Skywalker's introduction to the squad. So, I think with the recent additions to the game, the Lancer isn't as powerful as it was last year.

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:06 pm 
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That's sort of where I've been thinking, though I think you were able to express it a little clearer. I think the Lancer is still very good, but suffers from being overly fragile and susceptible to elements that are found in a lot of the common top squads.

But in building for regionals I think it would be a mistake to totally dismiss the Lancer, I still feel its a viable threat and should strongly be considered when squad building.

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Ruhk wrote:
That's sort of where I've been thinking, though I think you were able to express it a little clearer. I think the Lancer is still very good, but suffers from being overly fragile and susceptible to elements that are found in a lot of the common top squads.

But in building for regionals I think it would be a mistake to totally dismiss the Lancer, I still feel its a viable threat and should strongly be considered when squad building.


Yes, I agree. It might not be the most likely to win regional, but in the right meta, played by the right player, it definately can. So if you aren't prepared for it (running Lord Vader and 15 rodian brutes in a swap squad), well no one to blame by yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:55 am 
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I was curious, after some dicussion with Joruus about how the Lancer might fare vs the deadliest Djem-So-er that might be out there and semi-playable.

My Base Case is this:
Pawn Lancer (thus unactivated) vs Darth Vader LotF

Lancer +18 Twin, Def 21
Vader +16 Djem Save 11, Def 23

Lancer needs 5 to hit, Vader needs 11 to Djem and 5 to hits back.

In 100 cases (assuming Vader uses FP at first fail):
Lancer hit 2, Vader Djem-ed 2, Vader hit 2 - 21%
Lancer hit 2, Vader Djem-ed 2, Vader hit 1 - 9%
Lancer hit 2, Vader Djem-ed 2, Vader hit 0 - 1%
Lancer hit 2, Vader Djem-ed 1, Vader hit 1 - 9%
Lancer hit 2, Vader Djem-ed 1, Vader hit 0 - 24%
Lancer hit 2, Vader Djem-ed 0, Vader hit 0 - 5%
Lancer hit 1, Vader Djem-ed 1, Vader hit 1 - 18%
Lancer hit 1, Vader Djem-ed 0, Vader hit 0 - 4%
Lancer hit 1, Vader Djem-ed 0, Vader hit 0 - 5%
Lancer hit 0, Vader Djem-ed 0, Vader hit 0 - 4%

Interesting that there is only a ~20% chance of the Lancer Dieing at the end of the Pawn. These are certainly survivable odds. Similar logic can be applied against General Skywalker (20 Def, Djem So save 11, Attack +12), where the Lancer has a 95%(needing 2s) chance of hitting, while Anakin has only a 60% of hitting (needing 9s). In the case the odds of survival will be slightly higher.

However it is a different case vs Vader SotJ. As SotJ also has Riposte he has an automatic chance to hit back in addition to the Djem So saves. This would be the least survivable case IMO.

Self-Destruct Damage is one of the easier counters to work around, simply driving around the SD characters is your best bet.

Momentuming YoBuck is definity the hardest match up. As said it would take extreme skill for the Lancer player to be able to out maneuver the YoBuck player.

@ Lobo: I don't think Rebels are as big a threat. Simply because the more common distruptive tech (Juno and Deena) have under 40 hp, making them very easy to wipe out. Only Madine has enough HP to survive, and while he can be expected to be seen in a sqaud with ERCs.. doing 40 damage to everything you ran over instead of 80 is a pretty darn good deal.

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:49 pm 
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I know he's certainly not Tier 1, but you need to consider GMLS against the Lancer as well. He only needs one Djem So save, and with 2 FPs to get it, the odds of killing a Lancer after it only makes 1 attack are VERY high, since the Djem So Mastery would be 50 damage total as long as Luke rolls anything except for 1's.

As for the Rebels, it's not the Disruptive that's necessarily the problem. It's the weird movement breakers, out-activation, and the ERCs with their ability to 1 shot kill the Lancer. Can't ever take the chance of the Rebels getting LOS on your Lancer or you'll be hosed. Plus, Sep Droid squads have no way to deal with Stealth, typically, so ERCs are fairly easy to set up where a Droid player can't effectively take them down.

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:18 pm 
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I threw Luke out simply because you'd have to be a foolish individual to attack Luke with the Lancer anytime before you've used the lancer to wipe out the rest of Luke support. That's where the rest of the squad build comes into play (like 2 IG-86s, can have the capacity to wipe out Luke in one round).

I'm not ignore the rebels, I'm simply saying that they are less a threat to Lancer build than a Momentum-Kybuck squad.

As I usually play.. you'll only likely to be outactivated in the first round, by second round you should be in a place to Strafe most of the opponent's squad, and be able to get away scot-free.

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:25 pm 
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I guess I've just had a completely different experience with the Rebels vs. Lancer then. In a Pawned Lancer squad, you typically don't have San Hill, so the Rebels are going to out-activate you almost 100% of the time. And I'm not just talking 1st round either. That gives them ample opportunity to move various ways as necessary, and set up their pieces after you've already positioned your Sidious/Lancer, giving you the least chance to actually do harm. Heck, against a Snowspeeder build, it could close that 24 square distance in one round, and then possibly utilize Leia's CE to finish off the Lancer with ease.

I guess I just don't see how a smart Rebel player would ever allow you the chance to do a Pawn/Strafe that actually accomplished much. Seems too easy to control the movement options either based on figure placement, locked doors, or just high distances.

I will agree though, Yobuck/Momentum is certainly more dangerous to the Lancer than Rebel builds are.

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:11 pm 
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Hmm, maybe I'm just not thinking of all the Rebel options at 200. Hmm.

In Conclusion the IG-Lancer Droid is a playable gimmick, and is only hitpoints away from being Top tier. At this point I would place a Pawned Lancer, or a Pawned Double Lancer around 4-5th, on my 'Top Squads of Today'.

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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:47 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
In a Pawned Lancer squad, you typically don't have San Hill

. . . and this is why they typically fail.

Been play-testing my own tweek of a lancer sqaud. I have settled into my favorite balance of figs. I will let you know how it does after the next tournament I enter.


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 Post subject: Re: How Competitive is a Lancer?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:05 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
In a Pawned Lancer squad, you typically don't have San Hill

. . . and this is why they typically fail.

Been play-testing my own tweek of a lancer sqaud. I have settled into my favorite balance of figs. I will let you know how it does after the next tournament I enter.


Wow, color me intrigued! I would totally disagree with that statement entirely, so I eagerly await more details :)

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