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 Post subject: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:06 pm 
Master of the Order
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There's a LOT of interesting discussion going on all over the place right now, due to the new DCI Floor Rules updates and the imminent release of Dark Times. It seems that 2010 is going to see an interesting meta shake out. What is everyone thinking about it right now?

Over in the DCI thread, we were sort of discussing how the Speedy Cannon squad could continue to deal with GOWK, since it really needs some sort of Melee Threat to help deal with GOWK.

The problem typically is though, in order to keep both the Speeder and some version of Han, you either have to go with lower activations, or lose Leia in order to fit in a solid melee attacker. Maybe Ferus Olin is a good piece to work in here? Block and Precision could be nice for helping against GOWK. If you still keep Leia in the squad somehow (and depending on the ruling of when the Dark Temptation roll has to be made in regards to using it with Leia's CE-granted attack), you could easily dish out 120+ damage in two activations that GOWK wouldn't be able to do anything about. Plus, gives you a bodyguard for the Snowspeeder. And if you happen to lose Ferus due to Dark Temptation, he'd be an easy kill for Han + Snowspeeder to handle, LOL.

Maybe something like this?

--Dark Cannon--
45 Luke's Snowspeeder
27 Ferus Olin
27 Han Solo, Smuggler
20 Princess Leia
14 General Rieekan
8 R7 Astromech Droid
6 Mouse Droid x2
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(150pts. 9 activations)

EDIT: Of course, this all changes drastically if the Championships and Regionals go to a 200 point format. :P

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:14 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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Well be ready to rebuild the squad then because it is very high possibility that they both will be at 200 this year.

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:20 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
Well be ready to rebuild the squad then because it is very high possibility that they both will be at 200 this year.


Sweet :D . I've been wanting 200 to be the standard for so long.


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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:36 pm 
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SWM MEta 2010: The year Custom Maps become tourney legal. This will certainly be the biggest thing that happens. :D

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:02 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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I believe the 200pt meta for Rebels will include Ferus as the new auto-include. There are no other cheap melee that can bring as much as he can for the cost (and GOWK squads too will likely include him). Further, evade on him, and Leia makes a potent melee punch that can protect the shooters. Of course Zuckuss can throw a wrench in all of that, but I am a fan of trading Leia for a Bothan, and putting a ghost on Zuck as a way to deal with GOWK.

There are other significant threats to Rebels at 200 that were already present, so honestly, I'm not sure what the real concern with the SS are based on. The strengths of the Speeder squads is the inclusion of all the tricks that they get in 150 that few other factions can similarly include. At 200, that has not been an issue. So to me, I still put Rebels at position 4 in 200, as I believe the other factions have more viable options for competitive play at that level.

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:59 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Lets see, for 200...

Rebels (Speeder + Ferus + some other 20ish point piece)
Separatists (Droid swarm)
Sith (Malak + Fringe)
Republic (Yobuck swap, GOWK)
Imperial (B&B, Inquisitors?)

Anything I am missing?


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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:32 pm 
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Honestly, my brain is having some trouble adjusting. Mixed squads are almost required now. I do like how the Mandos do have perhaps one of the best anti-GOWK piece in the JH.

I fully expect Ferus to be in a lot of Rebel and Republic squads.

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:35 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Cybit wrote:
Lets see, for 200...

Rebels (Speeder + Ferus + some other 20ish point piece)
Separatists (Droid swarm)
Sith (Malak + Fringe)
Republic (Yobuck swap, GOWK)
Imperial (B&B, Inquisitors?)

Anything I am missing?


Malak + Sith :)
Republic has several viable builds beyond Yobuck and GOWK. Senate Commandos, Flobi, Medium Swappers (usually Qui-Gon JT), Yoda GM is still good, and so on. I hardly see it down to only those two, especially when Rep is full of great melee attackers which make them great at dealing with GOWK and Flobi themselves.

Imperial was already way beyond just B&B at 200. In fact, the most competitive swap squads almost always had at least 2 threats, if not 3, and there are literally 5-10 different variants that can compete with anything.

NR is very solid at 200, you completely ignored them, as they too can totally nerf shooters with their melee (and support shooters).

And Vong has a number of new tricks, especially with Zuckuss and Cad Bane, that I don't think most players have explored well yet.

OR with Exile is excellent, and JBMs are darn close.

Zuckuss works well in every faction, and can help any of them compete at the top levels.

And your forgot Sep Whorm squads, they are at least the equal of droid squads, and can do a lot of different things at 200.

In all seriousness, this may be the first time in SWMs history that all 10 factions can compete at the top levels. I'm not saying OR will win Gencon, but that has never been my measure of "competitiveness" anyways. But I can tell you, I would have no issue taking any one of the factions to virtually any tournament in the world, and have a good expectation of competing. It's going to be much more about knowing your local meta and the particularities of those squads that will determine what each of you thinks is tops at any given time. Just as Cybit has done for his area. But all it will take is someone to figure out the local stuff and knock the socks off of everyone for a few weeks for that to change. Unlike the past, you can do it with any faction I believe, and that has to be seen as a positive.

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:44 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Wow I can't believe I forgot NR. :-p Actually I can, as they always manage to somehow lose at our local tournaments, usually to sheer dumb luck. It's kind of amusing.

Imps have so many, I just lump them all under Thrawn, swap, and some form of BIG HULKING MONSTROSITY.

Mandos still have the Dodonna / Tempo Control issue unfortunately.

I don't think OR is quite there. They might be able to pull a Malak (one great commander from the faction, some really good fringe pieces, and some decent mid-cost in faction pieces), but don't think they are Rebel/NR/Imp/Sep/Republic level.

Regardless, I'm glad to see this new meta with GOWK. Paper/Rock/Scissors has always been something I enjoyed in terms of meta balance.

I wonder if we should look at perhaps changing Makaashi Style Mastery in lieu of the Soresu change?


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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:01 am 
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Cybit wrote:
I wonder if we should look at perhaps changing Makaashi Style Mastery in lieu of the Soresu change?


Nope. It still affects plenty of other stuff. And it's not a single element that's having a dramatic/negative impact on the game. If you start changing stuff just because it's bad, you'd have to change 75% of the pieces. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:57 am 
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Lobo, I like the idea of Ferus as an anti-GOWK piece - if he turns, he gives you another target so you can earn the points to get to the full 3-point victory without actually having to kill GOWK. Ideal situation is he does some damage, your opponent does most of the work killing him, then he turns and you finish him off and get the points. (That is how it works right?)

And he's a very solid melee piece too of course. I think we'll be seeing a lot of him, he definitely adds a new dynamic.


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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:57 am 
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Yeah, Makashi Mastery still makes Dooku a better anti-melee piece than Tyrannus, even if Tyrannus is more balanced all around. Parry with defense against a few other styles is pretty handy if you fear Yoda or Kit.

So many new dynamics I want to play around with.

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:17 pm 
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regardless of how the GOWK shapes the meta i don't think you can really discount how strong activation control is which has always been the big issue with the lesser factions.

Zuckuss can deal with that to an extent with Ozzel and San Hill, but Dodonna still give teh NR and rebels massive control over when and where the action takes place. Its just such a large advantage that i don't think any faction without it withthe exception of the republic can really expect to compete even with the new changes in the game.

The fact that the restrictive maps don't allow the kind of deep early strikes capable in both 2008 and 2009 meta to circumvent that i think the compettive scene will generally be

Rebel
Imperial
NR
Republic
Seperatist

not nessicarily in that order but thats not a bad estimation.

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:22 am 
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fingersandteeth wrote:
regardless of how the GOWK shapes the meta i don't think you can really discount how strong activation control is which has always been the big issue with the lesser factions.

Zuckuss can deal with that to an extent with Ozzel and San Hill, but Dodonna still give teh NR and rebels massive control over when and where the action takes place. Its just such a large advantage that i don't think any faction without it withthe exception of the republic can really expect to compete even with the new changes in the game.


I agree.

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:56 pm 
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It s like your reading my mind fingersandteeth

I'm thinking quite the same thing at this point about the activation control. And the five actions factions you named.

Last tournament I played I took 3rd. I had no Tempo control piece. My one lost was to tempo control and it was lopsided. After looking at all the squads in it the top 2 in tournament had tempo control. Everyone else did not from what I saw and filled in the ranks from there.

And the game between first and second went to time and finished the last round 40 minutes after time was called. Of course that was on Taris so hard to say if its tempo control vs tempo control or just taris that caused this or for that matter both. With the new map lists maybe this will change, I feel it will but at this point its to early to tell.

My shakedown will be at least at this point with Dark Times release
1st empire
or rebels
one or the other is top dog but its close

3rd will be NR or seps
the other would be 4th
(although seps may have enough to move up even without mobile or GMA)

5th reps

the other four factions will be able to compete quite readily with each other and even reps and if the other factions with tempo control available don't use the tempo control it will be quite close in most games.

It should be a very interesting year. :)

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:18 pm 
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You guys are overvaluing tempo control at 200pts, particularly for the Imperials, even for the current meta. With the new rules in place, Tempo control will lose even more of it's control of the game. It is not the end all be all of the game that some of you make it out to be, and can be beaten by many squads without it. Not to mention the problem of running Tempo control against another and being out activated.

At 200, it is not nearly the advantage that it is at 150, at least not in championship level play anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:48 pm 
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At 200 the activation control isn't quite as powerful as 200 opens up better places for gallop/strafers and other activation killers to go rampant and eat all those activations.

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Say its not so Dean.

I hope that the championship level stays at 150 as I don't think that a change to 200 pts offers a whole lot for the game. I have heard many people claim that it will open up the Meta (although I think the map list will fix this more than any point level ever will). No matter what point level there will always be a "best squad" or "squad to beat" and after a couple of high level tournaments that most people will figure it out and the top tier of the game will consist of a very limited number of tier one squads (just by the nature that the top can only support a few because it is the top). In all reality 100 pts has probably the most wide open Meta (as there are probably at least 30+ good squads) but then you get to the problem that luck and matchups (vong vs force users, etc) play a larger factor and skill less so. So given that I don't see there being more tier 1 squads I am not sure that I see the benefit of moving to another point level. Also I think that the time would become a problem as 200 pt matches go to time more frequently than 150 pt matches (at least in my experience). Reading many of the team tourney (and 200 pt tourney) reports many of the games were blah, blah, went to time and so and so won on points. It seems that we as a community should give the new map lists (and other floor rules updates) a chance and see how they perform and if they create the desired outcome (which I assume is to create more diversity among squads that compete at the top level).

Just my 2 cents worth

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:06 pm 
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my stance stands on activation control and probably will until the results of the regionals shows differently. The maps, rules and figs don't change enough of the core concepts of the game to take away its advantages.

The only aspect of the rules that might change its hold of the game is the gambit rule but even then tempo control squads get to put their figure in gambit last and clear the other squads away.

All the 200 point squads that did well at Gen Con were generally activation control squads. B&B with Scourge and Cade, Rebel snowspeeders, NR evade, they all had activation control. Yobuck squads struggled against them, i know cos thats what i ran.

I've seen it dominate for too long.

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 Post subject: Re: SWM Meta: 2010
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:45 pm 
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I have said for a long time that a simple fix at least for Dodonna would be to make the choice a 1 time choice at the beginning of each match (1 possible interpretation from the card) to sort of minimize his huge advantage of choice on each phase. This could also help speed up games as there wouldn't be the extra few seconds each phase of choosing how many to activate.

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