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 Post subject: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:05 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Ok, so for those who heard the last SHNN show, Dean let out some of the upcoming DCI changes for January. They shouldn't be real surprising, but they are dramatic I believe. And I see some very good things coming for the game going forward.

In particular, slow play has been addressed in what seems to be a fair way to determine winners in a tournament, based on who was actually most likely to win more of their games, instead of who can slow play for points the best. The map list has been addressed, and while I would have liked to see my ideas for multiple formats, I understand how difficult that would be to pull off while Dean was dealing with all of the other issues at stake. Hopefully that is something we can work on in the future. Also, gambit and in particular Lobot UH will see some different uses. Since reinforcements no longer gain gambit, there is no more abusing activation control and reinforcements at the end of a round. I really like this one, as it sort of got around the "intent" of Gambit anyway. Having to risk to score makes a lot more sense to me, and I think we will all benefit from it in the long run. It might mean less of old Lobot in play, but more use of him how he is intended, that is to tailor to your opponent's squad rather than for map abuse.

I am not going to detail the changes here, that is for Dean to do if he desires, so don't ask. But if you heard the show, or whatever, let's discuss how these will affect the game. Personally, I am extremely excited and think Dean did an excellent job on this one. He's gonna take a lot of flack I am sure, but I commend him for his tireless work. Same with Jim, as I know he was involved in a lot of this.

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:28 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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i like the new ruling, i have no complaints.
i heard on the show the other day about other maps being illegalized, and im wondering which ones they will be?
im hoping for the hard map to be removed from 200 pt play. it is too small and is Strafes best friend. (I know i will catch hell for this.)
dont get me wrong, i love Strafing, but when i do it to someone in a 200 pt construct on that particular map, it seems kinda cheap.
atleast in 150, you have less pieces to get slammed by Strafe, and you can place a wee bit better.
thats just my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:26 pm 
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Since Bill doesn't want to post the changes could somebody else post them since its kind of hard to talk about them without knowing what they are?

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:12 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Upcoming Floor Rules Changes / Things

-- Jonny has been banned.
-- All Prize Support goes to Dean
-- Dean may be the anti-Christ (I second this).
\\
OK, seriously...

At Gencon: Mystery Map Tournament -- Bring squad, no map. JC makes a map, no one else is shown the map until the tournament starts.

Slow Play:
If a game goes to time, you gain two points, rather then three points. (Normally, a match win is worth three points). Tiebreakers are more defined (not down to alphabetical order or when you were entered into the tournament). 3rd tie breaker is now # of complete victories, 4th is head to head, 5th is opponent's match win % (which I think is 1st now?). Need to clarify that 5th one with Dean...

Gambit:
Reinforcements can no longer score Gambit. A piece must be worth 5 points or more in order for it to get Gambit.

Map List is going to shrink (sounds like Teth, Taris, Hoth?) Open maps.

Point Formats: 125 Sealed
//

My only concern is someone who is losing a game will deliberately stall it out in an attempt to screw an opponent (I know, that's a person being a douchebag issue, but at a competitive tournament, it can and will happen. Magic gets around this by having full points for a 1-0 game win). It also could lead to guilt tripping issues from one player onto another (a game is close to time, one player is down but has a small chance of winning, the second player is trying to get him to concede to get a full three points. Maybe if you've earned 3/4 of the total points...


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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:17 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Deliberately slowing a game down is stalling, and is a DQ from the tournament, as defined by the current game rules. Also, a judge can always award a full win if he/she decided to do so based on a given game's circumstances.

As for the tie breakers, the 1st is still OWP. The 5th is your opponents' opponents win percentage.

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:23 pm 
Ugnaught Master!
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I will chime in with what I know, then make my own comments.
Map issues: Taris, Teth Monastary, and Echo Base Outpost will all be removed from legal DCI play.
Slow play: A regular, finished game has always given the winner 3 points. However, under the new policy, a game which has gone to time, with neither player attempting to play for the conclusion of the game, will only net 2 points. Of course, this is a judge's discretion whether or not the game should be a 3/2 point victory, if there are instances which need to be taken into consideration.
Gambit: A miniature may only accrue Gambit points if, were that piece to be defeated, it would give the opponent 5 points. Basically, free pieces, or any piece not worth at least 5 points, cannot gain Gambit.

Maps: Yes, this may seem like a big deal, but, minus big events, Regionals or Gencon or other major locations' events, this is not so big. These maps are all easily abuseable, but if a bunch of gamers at a store do not mind them being used, then I doubt anyone will care. This change primarily makes a big difference for large events. There are stores out there where people allow custom maps to be used in DCI tourneys, and the whole group agrees with no problems. If someone really enjoys using these particular maps, then I would venture to say they enjoy abusing them, and they need to play on maps where they do not start off with the immediate advantage.

Slow play: I will address this from two different perspectives. As a gamer who loves the game, I am personally not bothered by it. I have always played this game to PLAY THIS GAME. Do I enjoy winning? Of course! Do I play the game to always win, hell no. I play this game because I enjoy the game. To me, that means, "Let's sit down, engage our pieces, and have a blast!" Personally, most of my games over all of my career have always finished, but that is a great deal due to my play style. Now, as a major event judge, I am torn. I think it adds a new level of fairness to the player who really wants to win by finishing, but each judge may look at a situation differently and might decide to give a full 3 point win instead of a 2 point win which the next judge might decide. It could lead, in a few cases, to even more issues, but, honestly, if it is the third round after an hour, then it should be an easy thing to say, "Okay, this is a two point win." However, if I have been called over multiple times by the winner saying his opponent is stalling, then it will be a 3 point win for sure. It is a great thing, but will put a bit more responsibility on the judges, which is fine with me. I do not look forward to using this rule at all, but it will not be something I will shy away from, either.

Gambit: Wow, this is something that I cannot be happier about. For me, it came into my mind as being necessary at Gencon this past year, when the map being used was Taris, and the only reason one person ever got Gambit was due to his Lobot Reinforcements running out at the end of each round. Legal, yes. Cheesy, pretty much. However, some of this can be blamed on the map being used, but it still put into my mind: wow, he's gaining points by losing a free piece each round. (if the culprit reads this, I am not pointing fingers, just remembering).

Anyway, those are my opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:32 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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I like the changes. I like games that tend to move forward as many players do.

I take it nothing has been said about allowing 125 and 175 point formats?....that was something I was wondering about.


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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:39 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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125 was added for Sealed play only. No other point limits were added or removed I believe.

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:43 pm 
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Well, I will say the changes in the rules are going to be good for the game. It would be great to have more minis that come out that also utilize abilities that help pull away from slow play, but it looks like that is an issue for Peter to deal with.


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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:14 pm 
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Edited

I guess my math was wrong so


Last edited by jonnyb815 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:36 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I'm loving the change to Gambit. At GenCon when I went up against Timmer the only piece he'd throw into the fray were his Reinforcements for Gambit. The game would have been a lot more fun (at least to me, I'm sure he wouldn't consider it any more fun, lol) if he had to put a piece like the Snowspeeder out in Gambit or give up the possibility of Gambit altogether.

So no more Uggies/Grans/MD used for Gambit, should prove to be interesting now...


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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:47 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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Yeah I love the dci rule change for gambit. Very well done.

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:34 pm 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
In a tournament this will only matter if you have more than 3/4th timed wins most of the time.


I don't think this will be true. I think any timed game has the possibility of affecting the outcome. There's more than just first and everyone else at stake here.

Even in a simple 3 round local tourney it has large implications. (For simplicity sake Win-TBWin-Loss)

0-3-0=6
2-0-1=6

So a 2-1 player can win it all if his SOS is better than the 3*-0 slow player. This matches your assumption. But watch this....

Now there's an uneven number of players...

2-1-0=8
1-2-0=7

Both undefeated but suddenly the single timed win difference is huge. And this travels down the line to all the 2-1 players in their rankings for a playoff spot or prize support.

(This isn't to say I oppose the concept. But it's not insignificant.)

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:39 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Jason I don't understand your numbers and what they represent. I'm sure you are right, but I just don't follow it enough to comment lol. Can you explain those again?

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:16 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Guessing it's Real Win (x3 points) - Time Win (x2 points) - Loss (x0 points).


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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:19 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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but what are the 1s? That's what I don't get.

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:38 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
but what are the 1s? That's what I don't get.


First three numbers are quantity of: full win, timed win, loss

each then multiplied by respective points for that result: (3, 2, 0) and added together for total (4th number)

so then
Quote:
1-2-0=7

means: full win 1x3, + timed win 2x2, loss 0 = 7

That is how I read it anyway :)


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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:21 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Yep, it's how I understand it as well.


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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:49 am 
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These are some very solid changes. However, for obvious reasons, I haven't used the DCI software for over a year and don't have it on this laptop. Is there a way to enter a 2pt win, or will there be an update for this at that time?

I agree with Ray on judging a 2pt win vs a 3 pt one. Last year, I don't recall too many games going to time each round[i][/i]. I suppose, though, that's why there's two of us. If only a few games are going to time I have see no shame in calling over my counterpart and conferring with him, and would have no problem with him doing the same. Not that I expect a unilateral decision by me or any of the other judges being argued with or cited as being unfair. :)

Bill, now it's time to start working on the next DCI update, where (hopefully) we can implement some alternate format ideas!!! I have a few that I have been playtesting (alas, in my head) and will bring into my playgroup for further playtesting when I am finally home...shortly after this DCI Update is implemented.

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 Post subject: Re: January DCI Changes Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:15 am 
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I like the Gambit change but I still don't think its enough since more maps are going to be banned. I still feel gambit area itself should be changed.

Not really sure I like the 3 and 2 point type wins. But I'll keep an open mind and if it doesn't work out it can be changed at a later date. Here is a thought about it though if the winning player of the timed game gets more then 100 points maybe that player should still get the full 3 points.

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