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 Post subject: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:21 pm 
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Hey, We have all recently seen discussions of what changes could be made to Soresu Style Mastery in order to make it less problematic for some people <Not my opponents today as in 3 rounds of competative play I made 0 Soresu saves even with mettle> What if all Lightsaber Styles were placed on the cards as "Free" Force powers. Essentially they are abilities right now, but if placed in the Force powers section it would make characters with force immunity <A condition available in 3 factions currently> to circumvent the abilities entirely. Just wondering if anyone had thought about this and what people thought about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:27 pm 
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well Luke I like it to a point and it only really helps just the vong.

I have thrown around a change to make it so that jedi styles couldn't be use against characters with jedi hunter. This wouldn't make it perfect but would keep some of the older figures more viable. Also this is easier to fix in the glossary then changing the cards themselves. it would also help almost every faction.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Honestly, I think that almost goes overboard. SSM is the only ability that anyone has any trouble with. Do we honestly want things like Shii-Cho, Ataru, or Niman to not work against the Vong anymore? Sure, Vong on the verge of competitive already, and that would certainly help push them up the ladder, but at what expense? The fact that SSM or Makashi still work like Parry against Vong is the ONLY thing that gives even the slightest chance of success for those Jedi.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:30 pm 
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What imbalance? Only SSM is truly the only problematic one

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 Post subject: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:26 pm 
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Ok, it was just a thought, other things it would do would be to make some older pieces with Force Defence or Force Absorb a little more useful. I thought it would be a universal fix that would allow for a way around Soresu <As well as problematic Djem so's>

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:49 pm 
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Luke_Skywalker wrote:
Ok, it was just a thought, other things it would do would be to make some older pieces with Force Defence or Force Absorb a little more useful. I thought it would be a universal fix that would allow for a way around Soresu <As well as problematic Djem so's>


Explain why you feel this way? Most of us didn't have this kind of reaction to these abilities. I felt most of them were well balanced, and done in a way that use is either limited to one or two situations a game, or it's a save based ability that works only half the tiem, even with a force reroll.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:09 pm 
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Well everyone has this huge problem with soresu, and is looking for a fix. The abilities are all kind of new and I thought that maybe going across the board with them might be a way to fix it. I mean some of the abilities, Like Ataru or Shii-Cho would still work against force immune enemies because they aren't responding abilities, I thought it would be a way to solve the Soresu problem because it would effect that one, Makashi, and Djem so. But those ones would all still be useful in their own rights, just weaker overall. The plus would be a resurgence of Thrawn, and Vong Squads. I just hadn't seen this particular approach looked at and thought I would bring it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:25 pm 
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Oh, okay. But I would say, and I assume a few others would as well, that only SSM is the problem. It is hte onyl one that isn't situational. All it requires is for him to be hit by attack. So only direct damage gets past it. As for the others, they require proper positioning, a specific amount of HP, or for the hit/damage to be from an adjacent melee character, in which the damage is still taken to the figure in question

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:11 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Honestly, I think that almost goes overboard. SSM is the only ability that anyone has any trouble with. Do we honestly want things like Shii-Cho, Ataru, or Niman to not work against the Vong anymore? Sure, Vong on the verge of competitive already, and that would certainly help push them up the ladder, but at what expense? The fact that SSM or Makashi still work like Parry against Vong is the ONLY thing that gives even the slightest chance of success for those Jedi.


But from my experience majority of players are not using vong because the majority of players are using the double twin shooters as the mainstay. But I see your point. My concern was to make older pieces less obsolete. Like the vornskr, jango fett, etc. and at the same time make some newer pieces fair better like the exceptional jedi apprentice. I mean after all it looks like everyone is trying to find a way to get GOWK unbanned or change SSM. I think the solution is less that is changed the better. Changing jedi hunter would take the same amount of effort as changing Ion gun. Just a thought though. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:13 am 
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Gurneywars wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Honestly, I think that almost goes overboard. SSM is the only ability that anyone has any trouble with. Do we honestly want things like Shii-Cho, Ataru, or Niman to not work against the Vong anymore? Sure, Vong on the verge of competitive already, and that would certainly help push them up the ladder, but at what expense? The fact that SSM or Makashi still work like Parry against Vong is the ONLY thing that gives even the slightest chance of success for those Jedi.


But from my experience majority of players are not using vong because the majority of players are using the double twin shooters as the mainstay. But I see your point. My concern was to make older pieces less obsolete. Like the vornskr, jango fett, etc. and at the same time make some newer pieces fair better like the exceptional jedi apprentice. I mean after all it looks like everyone is trying to find a way to get GOWK unbanned or change SSM. I think the solution is less that is changed the better. Changing jedi hunter would take the same amount of effort as changing Ion gun. Just a thought though. :)


Well, you're responding to what I was saying there, but I was really talking about Luke's suggestions, not yours Gurneywars. I think your suggestion is a good one too (Jedi Hunter ability negates use of Styles). Would give the Vong OG and JH particularly nice boosts. Again though, I'm not really sure that's the wisest move, as Vong can already defeat GLMS or GOWK/Flobi with ease, and SSM and Djem So still work against them right now. If those abilities don't work against them, then it's quite lopsided in favor of the Vong. Sure, it helps other, more minor pieces, like maybe Durge JH or the EJA. But you can't boost one thing at the expense of something else. Just because it will make those other pieces 'less obsolete' doesn't mean it's a good change overall.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:31 am 
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Gurneywars wrote:
But from my experience majority of players are not using vong because the majority of players are using the double twin shooters as the mainstay. But I see your point. My concern was to make older pieces less obsolete. Like the vornskr, jango fett, etc. and at the same time make some newer pieces fair better like the exceptional jedi apprentice. I mean after all it looks like everyone is trying to find a way to get GOWK unbanned or change SSM. I think the solution is less that is changed the better. Changing jedi hunter would take the same amount of effort as changing Ion gun. Just a thought though. :)


Players don't use Vong becasue they can't do damage fast enough. They are a melee faction with no in house movement breakers, and most of their CE's or damage effectign abilities are all based on being within 6 squares and or winning initative and being close enough to strike and still get your CE bonuses for it too matter.

That's why Vong aren't played. It has nothing to do with lightsaber styles, it has to do with damage and they just can't do enough of it fast enough to compete.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:03 pm 
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Gotcha lobo

Don I wasn't saying vong weren't being used because of lightsaber styles. I was saying they weren't being used because of double twin shooting pieces. :)

As you so rightly pointed out they have a hard time moving across the board while maintaining all the CE and SAs that give them higher damage output. My point was even with a jedi hunter changed the vong still wouldn't be highly used even if against jedi with styles do to support of the jedi being shooters.

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Last edited by Gurneywars on Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Gurneywars wrote:
Gotha lobo

Don I wasn't saying vong weren't being used because of lightsaber styles. I was saying they weren't being used because of double twin shooting pieces. :)

As you so rightly pointed out they have a hard time moving across the board while maintaining all the CE and SAs that give them higher damage output. My point was even with a jedi hunter changed the vong still wouldn't be highly used even if against jedi with styles do to support of the jedi being shooters.


I agree, but this has been a problem for Vong long before all the greater mobile double twin, it has been a problem from day one. Static shooters tore them apart from the first day, mobile shooters have simply made it worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:46 pm 
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Gurneywars wrote:
Gotha lobo
I was saying they weren't being used because of double twin shooting pieces. :)


Well I don't even agree with that statement at all. I play Vong all the time and they are a particularly nasty faction against the double twinners because of crab armor and lack of accurate shot. There are several reasons a lot of people don't play vong, and it wasn't the double twinners. They haven't been heavily played for quite some time, well before Rex, Dash and Cad came out. Most people build their squads wrong with Vong. Generally, people want to run too many CEs pumping up 2 JHs and then get mad when they can't get 12 figures across the board in a pack without dying.

Instead, I focus on 1-2 ideas, mix in some shooters for support, and do just fine with Vong.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:59 am 
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shooting pieces, double twin shooting pieces it s all the same except the double twin is worst.
Hmm I think several of the double twinners can get accurate shot.

My point was just to show that the Vong with jedi hunter changed would not be the be all end all to styles because of the shooter support available.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:04 am 
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Well the reason you dont see Vong played well its because of maps simple as that. The map lists have made vong really hard to play over the last year and a half. even with the garm vong I still feel people try to do too many things with them and there damage output becomes too low. The only twin double attacker that vong should really be afraid of is rex and with the Guardian around now he needs 10's to hit them in cover. You just try to out act Dash if you can. Well vs Cad Bane he only has a 10 atk so even vs Vong Jh in cover he needs 10. Non of the twin double attackers have accurate shot so you can use mice and uggies as blockers. This is where BG's can come into place vs the Twin Double attackers since they will miss a lot. Mandos and cunning I feel hurt the vong more than these so called evil double twin attackers. When you play again Vong you want to do max damage so a Boba Merc with cunning double should be doing the same as a rex but the damage per attack is higher so is the attack. I really dont feel double attackers have hurt the vong its really the maps.

All in all with Cade Bane around now and the maps changing in Jan I think Vong will be close to tier 1. Now they have a good shooter and the maps should be more balanced again. They had TBSV and Boba's but they just didnt do it I think Cad Bane will be a great fit for what they need.

So this change in styles would hurt the overall styles than help them. SSM squads I feel will be more shooter based than with GOWK. So even if this change would help the vong I feel the extra damage from Flobi CE will offset that.


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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:53 am 
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Gurneywars wrote:
shooting pieces, double twin shooting pieces it s all the same except the double twin is worst.
Hmm I think several of the double twinners can get accurate shot.


I'm just tired of what is becoming an all too popular and abused rant, "It's all the fault of the double twin attacker Rex, Dash and now Cad." I mean seriously, it's almost as if double twin attackers are now responsible for starting WWII....

It's nothing against you personally Matt (and I hate making qualifiers like that but it's a necessity now a days on the forums), but I seriously question your logic here. I think in this case, you like a lot of people, perhaps most, have gotten onto the "double twin is Satan" train and can't see the forest for the trees any longer. Perhaps I am overstating, but there is a major problem here with this consensus that seems to be forming. If I were making a list of Vong issues, I'm not even sure the double twin attackers would even make the list.

Jonny laid out some of the issues. The double twinners can barely hit the Vong, they lack accurate shot and gaining it as you suggested is pretty darn expensive. Rex and Dash can't get it period. Cad can at a cost of 40pts more. So a 94 pt Cad... That's hardly a worthwhile concern for the game and for the Vong. Further, none of those three can even hit the Vong on their way in anyways. Further, Vong often employ Nom to protect a key piece like the shaper, and done right, you aren't going to get to kill it without losing more points in the process. Other double twinners like Echani are hardly burning up the meta, access to Veers or not. Finally, we turn to Mandos. Mandos do well enough against Vong, and can gain accurate shot on their scouts. Problem is, they still have to be able to see them, have to out activate, and last I checked, Mandos weren't burning up the meta either.

As to Vong's real issues, well there are a couple that still affect the meta. Luke's Snowspeeder. It's high speed and DR makes it a very very tough battle. As long as the snowspeeder is in the meta, Vong will struggle. Open maps - they generally crush all but very specific Vong builds. Some that is changing. Lack of strong shooters with Vong synergy. Cad Bane is probably best used as a Vong piece. This is partially because the Vong need another shooter with synergy for the faction, in particular with Nom, but also because the Vong already have some of the best interference figures in the game.

Here's a squad:
--Bane's Bombs--
54 Cad Bane
34 Nom Anor
21 Yuuzhan Vong Shaper
40 Yuuzhan Vong Jedi Hunter x2
19 Yomin Carr
8 R7 Astromech Droid
12 Advance Scout x2
6 Mouse Droid x2
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

(200pts. 13 activations)

This is what I am talking about when I speak of Vong. I don't need to charge the field with my JHs, so open maps aren't as big of an issue. I don't need to get much farther than in an around gambit generally. The JHs are interference pieces done right, with 3 spit poison figures behind them, and poison themselves. The shaper can be OMed, or a JH if you want. Then can start near Nom early, and move up to the JHs when they engage. You don't need to or want to overextend. You want to protect Cad and Nom with the JHs. It's a pretty darn brutal squad, and honestly, I have 0 fear of double twin attackers being an issue at all for this. Swapping is a much bigger threat in general, and I find that to be true for Vong most of the time anyways.

As to the question of the thread, no, I don't think it solves the issue with SSM. There is no reason to nerf the others simply to deal with the one problematic one. I recommended months ago that SSM simply become Lightsaber Defense, which would have done the same thing to GOWK that this change suggests, only cost him a fp to begin with. And it wasn't meant with any success. But never did I argue that this change would be of great benefit to the Vong. The Vong already torch GOWK quite well as is. There issues are generally with movement breakers, but spit poison helps, so does Cad. In fact, I've argued that the Vong are tier 1 at 200 right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:28 pm 
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It's funny I spoke abotu people nto playign Vong earlier up, and gave my reasons, but I have to say Bill, you and I are finally on the same page with this faction. It took me a while, btu I think about 2 or 3 months back we discussed a squad and thats when it hit me.

Here's an example of a Vong squad I have been practicing with the past couple of days.

Cad Bane
Prince Xixor
Nom Anor
Kel Dor BH x3
Rodian Trader
Aqulaish Assasin x2
Advance Scouts x2
Gran Raider
Uggie Demo x2

It's all focused on Bombs, and grenades, and the shooters have strong scores for attacking and accurate shot. Plus the Trader can give grenades and heal. I like the scouts having grenades 20 in case of droids that ignore thud bug. And even the gran with grenades 20 is more of a threat then he is on his own as a bomb.

Vong can be played successfully, but they require a bit of skill on some very focused squad building.

As for the Garm builds with Ossus Gurdians, I have yet to loss wiht that at 200. With Han Storm giving them a movemnet breaker, add in Jareal, and the Ithorian Commander and they are nasty.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:34 pm 
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I see what your saying Bill. :) I see what you and jonny are saying. I took nothing personally ;) I also wasn't complaining but stating an observation that may be wrong but Don was saying basically the same thing except just shooters in general.(so I don't know how wrong it is) Double twin shooters have been in just about every squad I have faced over the last year(either on its own or through commander effects)

The squad you built with the Vong for example has a double twin shooter in it that isn't even Vong.(Nothing personal just and observation.) I'm not bashing the double twin shooter but it has become for better or worst a mainstay in almost any build.


I apologize to Luke for somehow I managed getting this thread off his topic and onto a vong vs shooter topic. I have already commented on his idea I think and put out jedi hunter idea as another option that could be use and was trying to make a point or 2 why it wasn't end all be all for the vong to get it since the style characters get plenty of support that the jedi hunter can' t really protect itself against since they have to go through that normally to get to the styles character. This idea was to try and help as everyone who has thrown out ideas to get GOWK unbanned with simple solutions. My idea was to try and do it without errata on a card.

My proposal wasn't for the Vong to get it. My proposal was for the jedi hunter ability to get it which would help many older pieces come back. (Maybe). I have no belief it will ever happen but I thought I throw it out there to. I think all I can offer for this thread has been said and I hope I haven't caused any harm.

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Last edited by Gurneywars on Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to correct the imbalance of Some Lightsaber Styles.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:38 pm 
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Well one of Lukes main points was adjust the styles so that the Vong would be more playable, and if it wasn't his thought it was someones on the first page.

So I don't see this as being too of topic myself. It's establishing evidence that adjusting the new saber styles wouldn't help or hurt Vong in a way that would encourage their use any further.

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