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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:56 pm 
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This is coming from a guy who played against Master Tactitian almost every game he played for 3 years. If this thread is about getting things off your chest- man did I HATE that ability.


While I wouldn't use the word "hate" I still think Override is the most problematic/dominant ability in the game all these years later. :)

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:19 am 
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Gemini1179 wrote:
I'm confused by all the talk about Yathzee (sp?) and chess. This is a d20 game. The fact that you have to roll a die makes this a luck based game. Tactics can improve probablilities and odds, but you can't alter the fact that luck will always, and should always play a part in this game. This is coming from a guy who played against Master Tactitian almost every game he played for 3 years. If this thread is about getting things off your chest- man did I HATE that ability.


This is the part that I agree with the most. Yes there is luck in this game. You have to roll a dice to see who goes frist, if an attack will hit or miss, if you make a save and so on. I also agree with Gemini that the GMA abiliy should have been given to melee only figs. Think about how it would have been if a Jedi could use that ability, melee would be awesome. But getting back to the luck thing. I am sure that everyone playing this game has had days where no matter what you had or did the dice was just not with you. I know I have. I played for fun last night at the LGS and I play Flobi and if I used qa force point to re roll SSM I failed every time. It sucked. Again this is just my opinion from a lot of years playing minis game and Rpgs luck plays a bigger roll then what most think.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:27 am 
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Ganthet wrote:
Again this is just my opinion from a lot of years playing minis game and Rpgs luck plays a bigger roll then what most think.


Sweet! Hey Aaron, I guess you and I have been extremely lucky to make the top 8 three years in a row!

Luck doesn't play a massive role in game outcomes. And it plays even a smaller roll in large tournaments. Sure, the occasional game here or there, but it's generally about 5% at most it really really matters. That isn't based on conjecture, that's based on some pretty solid math I've done on my own games of SWMs over the years.

Personally, I don't even think Flobi will make a large dent in that percent, but it could. More importantly is the way that this new kind of luck changes how you play the game. And that was the biggest issue with it on GOWK as well.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:14 am 
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I think most people think SWM is hugely luck dependent, so I'd say the exact opposite is true--that luck plays a much smaller role in the game than most think. If there is a mismatch in skill, the better player tends to win every time (barring handicapping himself with a subpar squad, or hitting a worst case matchup.)

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:24 am 
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Just a neat SSM story. I played a game using the new obi-wan. I made 80 percent of my SSM saves, spent force points to reroll 2 of them, in both instances it was successfull. I finished the game with Obi at 70hp.

Next game I played he made about 50 percent of his SSM saves, spent 4 of his FP's on rerolls, made 3 of those. Obi did some sick damage, and lasted longer then he should have even with that precentage of saves. He was defeated, and that was from a two barrages from a flamethrower. I lost intiative and he got hit twice more to go down. Darn tarpals and Jango BH

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:12 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Ganthet wrote:
Again this is just my opinion from a lot of years playing minis game and Rpgs luck plays a bigger roll then what most think.


Sweet! Hey Aaron, I guess you and I have been extremely lucky to make the top 8 three years in a row!

Luck doesn't play a massive role in game outcomes. And it plays even a smaller roll in large tournaments. Sure, the occasional game here or there, but it's generally about 5% at most it really really matters. That isn't based on conjecture, that's based on some pretty solid math I've done on my own games of SWMs over the years.

Personally, I don't even think Flobi will make a large dent in that percent, but it could. More importantly is the way that this new kind of luck changes how you play the game. And that was the biggest issue with it on GOWK as well.



I am not saying that luck has a ton to with it or is a huge factor, but it still plays a part in the end. Yes Skill and Knowledge and take you along way in this game and others I have played. But you have to admit that if you don't roll what you need it won't happen. Math aside luck can sometimes not go your way. But Thank you for pointing stuff out that I hadn't thought of before Billy as always.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:16 am 
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dalsiandon wrote:
Just a neat SSM story. I played a game using the new obi-wan. I made 80 percent of my SSM saves, spent force points to reroll 2 of them, in both instances it was successfull. I finished the game with Obi at 70hp.

Next game I played he made about 50 percent of his SSM saves, spent 4 of his FP's on rerolls, made 3 of those. Obi did some sick damage, and lasted longer then he should have even with that precentage of saves. He was defeated, and that was from a two barrages from a flamethrower. I lost intiative and he got hit twice more to go down. Darn tarpals and Jango BH



Ouch. That had to suck alot.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:38 am 
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my feeling is that playing with Flobi will increase the luck factor.

Not only for the opponent but for the person playing it.

When you build wil Flobi your paying for his defence. If you build correctly then you will judge that he has about 280 hp and play with that in mind. In other words he is kind of like the warmaster with flight (interestingly, the best way to kill obi is with tons of little shots, where with the warmaster its a few heavy shots).
However, if you roll well, he can have upwards of 500 hp, if he rolls poorly he can have little more than his base 120 hp.

Either way, after many games his survivability will come out to be what you expect but as much as an opponent can be beat by you rolling well, so will many games end because you rolled poorly with him Flobi.

Essentially what i'm saying is that your paying a lot for such an unpredictable figure and its one reason i just don't think he will end up being so great.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:49 am 
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I see flobi's Commander effect as having a big part of it too, Allies w/in Gain Extra Attack. If you pair him with the original Rex, that can be pretty devastating, I like putting the new Cody in on top of that Also for Greater Mobile Double Accurate, but that is a personal preference. A big issue with Flobi is also his ability to Escape engagement when he is close to dead, between surprise move and flight he can really put some distance between himself and many of his attackers. I think it adds a lot to his survivability, and once again on the competitive scene that is 66 points your opponent didn't score if you can run away successfully.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:29 am 
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Luke_Skywalker wrote:
I see flobi's Commander effect as having a big part of it too, Allies w/in Gain Extra Attack. If you pair him with the original Rex, that can be pretty devastating, I like putting the new Cody in on top of that Also for Greater Mobile Double Accurate, but that is a personal preference. A big issue with Flobi is also his ability to Escape engagement when he is close to dead, between surprise move and flight he can really put some distance between himself and many of his attackers. I think it adds a lot to his survivability, and once again on the competitive scene that is 66 points your opponent didn't score if you can run away successfully.



Well running away from engagement will soon have some negatives of its own from a tournament standpoint. I look forward to a day when people plan on playing a game until its completion.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:38 pm 
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Luke_Skywalker wrote:
I see flobi's Commander effect as having a big part of it too, Allies w/in Gain Extra Attack. If you pair him with the original Rex, that can be pretty devastating, I like putting the new Cody in on top of that Also for Greater Mobile Double Accurate, but that is a personal preference. A big issue with Flobi is also his ability to Escape engagement when he is close to dead, between surprise move and flight he can really put some distance between himself and many of his attackers. I think it adds a lot to his survivability, and once again on the competitive scene that is 66 points your opponent didn't score if you can run away successfully.


I would hate to play agianst someone like that did that time and again. You play to win by defeating fig's, not running away hoping to clock is your friend.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:44 pm 
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dalsiandon wrote:
Luke_Skywalker wrote:
I see flobi's Commander effect as having a big part of it too, Allies w/in Gain Extra Attack. If you pair him with the original Rex, that can be pretty devastating, I like putting the new Cody in on top of that Also for Greater Mobile Double Accurate, but that is a personal preference. A big issue with Flobi is also his ability to Escape engagement when he is close to dead, between surprise move and flight he can really put some distance between himself and many of his attackers. I think it adds a lot to his survivability, and once again on the competitive scene that is 66 points your opponent didn't score if you can run away successfully.


I would hate to play agianst someone like that did that time and again. You play to win by defeating fig's, not running away hoping to clock is your friend.


Misconception, on multiple levels. We've been over this, no point rehashing it. Carl's post demonstrates full well that the rules are in his favor, whether the rest of us agree with that sentiment or not.

You can "hate" it all you want, but at the end of time the person that plays that way wins.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:47 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
dalsiandon wrote:
Luke_Skywalker wrote:
I see flobi's Commander effect as having a big part of it too, Allies w/in Gain Extra Attack. If you pair him with the original Rex, that can be pretty devastating, I like putting the new Cody in on top of that Also for Greater Mobile Double Accurate, but that is a personal preference. A big issue with Flobi is also his ability to Escape engagement when he is close to dead, between surprise move and flight he can really put some distance between himself and many of his attackers. I think it adds a lot to his survivability, and once again on the competitive scene that is 66 points your opponent didn't score if you can run away successfully.


I would hate to play agianst someone like that did that time and again. You play to win by defeating fig's, not running away hoping to clock is your friend.


Misconception, on multiple levels. We've been over this, no point rehashing it. Carl's post demonstrates full well that the rules are in his favor, whether the rest of us agree with that sentiment or not.

You can "hate" it all you want, but at the end of time the person that plays that way wins.


I wont deny that Dennis. And your right, it's not worth arguing over it.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:01 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
Well running away from engagement will soon have some negatives of its own from a tournament standpoint.[/quote]

What is this statement supposed to mean?

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:09 pm 
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you've been pm'd

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:49 am 
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dnemiller wrote:
you've been pm'd

Why PM? I am sure others want to know.


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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:19 am 
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Interesting...

Oh well, no point in speculating. January will be here soon enough.


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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:28 am 
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dnemiller wrote:

Well running away from engagement will soon have some negatives of its own from a tournament standpoint. I look forward to a day when people plan on playing a game until its completion.



While this is true, there are negatives to not having your beatstick in front of your defending your other pieces, I wonder if your beatstick is low on HP is there ever an advantage to sticking it out when you have a method of escape? Especially in the Case of Obi-Wan, whose commander effect is enhancing your squad a lot. By running away in most situations like that you merely deny your opponent points for defeating your beat, but in the situation with flobi, you stand to lose a whole lot more (3 attacks per round from Rex and Cody in the example I used.) Running Flobi away in no way demonstrates a lack of wanting to play a game to it's completion. It represents preserving your assets and squad strengths. Rex and Cody have a much better chance of defeating what is left of an opponent's squad if Flobi and Mas stay on the board somewhere.

Also Beatsticks have been utilizing a method of escape for a long time <Black and blue, Yobuck Swap, Even mobile, flight, and speed for those who insist that Luke's Snowspeeder is an interference piece> Why should we expect that it is somehow more honorable to let the beat get killed?

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:46 am 
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dnemiller wrote:

Well running away from engagement will soon have some negatives of its own from a tournament standpoint. I look forward to a day when people plan on playing a game until its completion.



Good :) I trust there's been a rather fair way to address what has become a major problem that is contrary to the spirit of the game. Looking forward to the next update!

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:51 am 
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Luke_Skywalker wrote:
dnemiller wrote:

Well running away from engagement will soon have some negatives of its own from a tournament standpoint. I look forward to a day when people plan on playing a game until its completion.



While this is true, there are negatives to not having your beatstick in front of your defending your other pieces, I wonder if your beatstick is low on HP is there ever an advantage to sticking it out when you have a method of escape? Especially in the Case of Obi-Wan, whose commander effect is enhancing your squad a lot. By running away in most situations like that you merely deny your opponent points for defeating your beat, but in the situation with flobi, you stand to lose a whole lot more (3 attacks per round from Rex and Cody in the example I used.) Running Flobi away in no way demonstrates a lack of wanting to play a game to it's completion. It represents preserving your assets and squad strengths. Rex and Cody have a much better chance of defeating what is left of an opponent's squad if Flobi and Mas stay on the board somewhere.

Also Beatsticks have been utilizing a method of escape for a long time <Black and blue, Yobuck Swap, Even mobile, flight, and speed for those who insist that Luke's Snowspeeder is an interference piece> Why should we expect that it is somehow more honorable to let the beat get killed?




But you have in several other posts made it clear that your strategy using him is to kill the rest of the squad and then run. So which is it? Because there is a difference. There is nothing wrong with swapping a wounded figure back out. But would you swap him back in for his attacks next round? I would because I want to win the game . You have stated you are fine with runnning and winning by a tiebreaker.


That just isnt how I am going to play

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