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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:07 am 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
Well I disgree that we wont have any major events till the spring. Pastimes is trying to do a Gencon Badge Tournament everyother month or so. The Fall Classic in Chicago should get a good 20 or so. DCI vassal events should be coming back soon. There will be a DCI Vassal Tournament league coming soon maybe not till spring.I dont want to do anything about that league till we know when regionals will be. All of these events might not get 30 plus but they should give us a little bit more info than we have had in the past. I do think QQ JM,Rex,FlObi will be tier 2-2.5 I know it only has 6 acts but on paper it looks a little scary to me.


Don't forget Coolecticon. If all the people who have said they are coming show up, it will be one of the biggest events of the year! Perhaps even bigger than the Regional!

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:13 am 
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dnemiller wrote:
I will disagree with you though Dennis on the Jar Jar. Again Jar Jar is not hard to kill and has always had its own weakness. Shooting him from across the board or really not having any of your own pieces within 6 of him.


You disagree with me because you didn't really read what I wrote, or maybe I wasn't clear enough. The point about Jar Jar is that SSM isn't the first luck-based concept that takes tactics out of the game. And yes, I agreed it can be countered - but the counters are just as problematic as the ones against SSM. Jar Jar, with the right mix of support, effectively neuters enemy melee pieces, and even if you stay 6 away, successful saves negate the attack, I believe. I might be wrong about that, it's been a while since I've seen him played.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:32 am 
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Comparing Jar Jar to any version of Obi with SSM is kind of stretching it, IMO. JJ has half as many hit points, and has virtually no damage output. Let alone the fact that 4 rounds of Gambit makes up for his points, meaning that if you defeat the rest of the squad, it's a piece of cake to win the game at that point. Very different from Obi.

Plus, I've always found that JJ was easier to deal with using Melee pieces than anything else. You just take the AoO from JJ and go attack something else. He's likely not going to hit you. Can't do that with Obi.

Sure, JJ is a luck based ability with no counter, just like SSM. So, if we're looking at ONLY the abilities, I can see where both can be frustrating that way. But if we look in the context of the pieces they're on, there's a reason why GOWK was Tier 0.5, and JJ is lucky to be Tier 2. In my experience, the only way to have a prayer with JJ is squads is to build completely around him (CS Yoda, Dark Woman, Qui-Gon JM), and when you do that, you end up with a squad with limited damage potential, and you're putting all your hope on your saves of 11. With the Obi squads, you have other things you can do besides roll and hope for 11's.

Again though, I totally understand your argument Dennis, if you're strictly talking about the abilities, regardless of the units themselves. I guess the reason why Bombad General never bothered me is because of the hilarious factor involved in how the ability works. I can't say I've ever been frustrated by JJ (and I lost a sealed game to JJ once where he was the last piece on the board, lol), but I can definitely say I've lost a few frustrating games because of SSM.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:01 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Comparing Jar Jar to any version of Obi with SSM is kind of stretching it, IMO. JJ has half as many hit points, and has virtually no damage output. Let alone the fact that 4 rounds of Gambit makes up for his points, meaning that if you defeat the rest of the squad, it's a piece of cake to win the game at that point. Very different from Obi.

Plus, I've always found that JJ was easier to deal with using Melee pieces than anything else. You just take the AoO from JJ and go attack something else. He's likely not going to hit you. Can't do that with Obi.

Sure, JJ is a luck based ability with no counter, just like SSM. So, if we're looking at ONLY the abilities, I can see where both can be frustrating that way. But if we look in the context of the pieces they're on, there's a reason why GOWK was Tier 0.5, and JJ is lucky to be Tier 2. In my experience, the only way to have a prayer with JJ is squads is to build completely around him (CS Yoda, Dark Woman, Qui-Gon JM), and when you do that, you end up with a squad with limited damage potential, and you're putting all your hope on your saves of 11. With the Obi squads, you have other things you can do besides roll and hope for 11's.

Again though, I totally understand your argument Dennis, if you're strictly talking about the abilities, regardless of the units themselves. I guess the reason why Bombad General never bothered me is because of the hilarious factor involved in how the ability works. I can't say I've ever been frustrated by JJ (and I lost a sealed game to JJ once where he was the last piece on the board, lol), but I can definitely say I've lost a few frustrating games because of SSM.


Maybe rather than Jar Jar we should be talking about Bombad Gungan specifically, and more specifically, in the context that Dean essentially stated that SSM is the first ability to come along in this game without a viable counter. I agree that is is AN ability without a viable counter, but not the first one - IMO that distinction belongs to Bombad Gungan. But beyond that I think we are all arguing the same point, and really this sidebar detracts from the bigger issue SSM brings to the game.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:10 am 
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Yeah, that's why I realized towards the end of my post that comparing Jar Jar to Obi is very different from comparing SSM to Bombad Gungan.

Overall, I'd say Bombad Gungan is a much more dangerous ability. Both have the save 11 to avoid damage. BG has the added danger of reflecting that damage somewhere else instead. However, you have to make sure you always keep your other units 6 squares away from the piece with BG as well though, since the save 11 would just send the damage elsewhere, instead of avoiding it altogether. So, in some ways, there's your counter to BG, in that it forces you to leave the BG piece all by itself somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:07 am 
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Jar Jar + Dark Woman + Qui-Gon + CS Yoda = and you thought Obi was bad... :D

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:20 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Yeah, that's why I realized towards the end of my post that comparing Jar Jar to Obi is very different from comparing SSM to Bombad Gungan.

Overall, I'd say Bombad Gungan is a much more dangerous ability. Both have the save 11 to avoid damage. BG has the added danger of reflecting that damage somewhere else instead. However, you have to make sure you always keep your other units 6 squares away from the piece with BG as well though, since the save 11 would just send the damage elsewhere, instead of avoiding it altogether. So, in some ways, there's your counter to BG, in that it forces you to leave the BG piece all by itself somewhere.


Actually, the way I've seen it used is to control the enemy pieces' movements and then rush with everything. On a squad with something like CS Yoda, a piece that attempts to move away gives up AoOs from multiple attackers. And worse, sometimes there is just nowhere to go that doesn't maintain Jar Jar as a legal target.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:32 am 
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Bombad gungan is the bane of my existance when a local player fields it. He is a phenom with it. Placement, map choice, all huge for JJ squads, and he builds around him in a way that you will do more damage to yourself.

bombad gungan is nasty, really nasty. Only counter is good movement and carefully drawn line of sight, oh and the same true counter for SSM, Lord Vader and his Overwhelming Force

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:06 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Actually, the way I've seen it used is to control the enemy pieces' movements and then rush with everything. On a squad with something like CS Yoda, a piece that attempts to move away gives up AoOs from multiple attackers. And worse, sometimes there is just nowhere to go that doesn't maintain Jar Jar as a legal target.


Topic shift! :lol:

I haven't really found that to be a problem. Generally the where to go is adjacent to an enemy while not being adjacent to Jar Jar. Sometimes you have to give up an AOO or two to achieve it. But if you start a bit spread out, Jar Jar only gets into base with one guy anyway and then they have to put a decent sized threat on the same guy to prevent just running from Jar Jar. Often those decent sized threats are something that you don't mind giving up an AOO to anyway--Trip attackers are a win there, and Doubles are a wash. (Twins will admittedly hurt and it might be better to just risk the Bombad barring Yoda buff.)

Then pop a weakish hitter on Jar Jar to pin him if you have someone available. The AOOs bypass Bombad if he tries to reposition to a more valuable Bombad target and you can whittle away a bit.

Bottom line though, Jar Jar is pretty great and almost always worth his points, but that almost is enough to deter top level for the most part it seems. Did Jonny have him in his Gencon squad?

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:35 pm 
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I guess it's hard for me to be up in arms about SSM being too luck based when I have evade / what have you (yes, you can base, but a competent player can make someone else pay a bigger price for having to base), bombad gungan, etc, in a game that uses a roll of a d20 as its primary mechanic. >_<

Hell, how many games come down to key inits still? Key evades, parries, force rerolls (Shinja makes an evade roll, Deri loses?), etc.

1) Surprise Move really burns through FPs -- It's really hard not to get a better use of the FP via Surprise Move then rerolling a soresu.

2) 5 FPs are enough..if the game is going to 3-4 rounds. Once a game goes down to those final pieces (which it should, assuming there is no slow play), and rounds start happening every minute or two, Obi runs out of FPs real quick...which leads to the third point

3) One bad roll streak (which is bound to happen) completely dooms Obi (or alternately, two quad shooters lighting him up for 2 rounds with average rolls). He's not that survivable without FR and MotF2. I watched Kit Fisto take out 100 health from him, based with each other, no FP either way, and them splitting inits over 4 rounds. I shudder to think of what IG swarm in 200 or even pawn the B3s would do to him.

I know the problem is that you can win any given game with Obi if you roll out of your mind. Though, if you roll out of your mind like that, can't you do that pretty much anyway?


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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:46 am 
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barzillai wrote:
I've been thinking about running FlObi with a handful of Caamasi Nobles and a Rodian Trader - a bunch of Diplomats with Heal 10 will make him even harder to kill.

lol! (in the truest sense of the expression)

That's awesome. Unshootable and unlimited healing, along with SSM. I'd like to use that in 100pts, where your opponent would be able to kill 10 or 13/16/19 points at most (Rodian and and Ug or two, or the Rodian and R2). Of course, that runs directly contrary to the intention of the game, which is a full-squad kill. But it's still very creative!

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:42 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
barzillai wrote:
Of course, that runs directly contrary to the intention of the game, which is a full-squad kill.


I just don't believe this statement to be true at all. If it were, they would not have taken the game in the direction they did or made the decisions about it that they have. And by they, I mean Rob.

I do agree it runs contrary to the "spirit of fun" in a game, but that's about as far as I will take it.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:28 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
barzillai wrote:
Of course, that runs directly contrary to the intention of the game, which is a full-squad kill.


I just don't believe this statement to be true at all. If it were, they would not have taken the game in the direction they did or made the decisions about it that they have. And by they, I mean Rob.

I do agree it runs contrary to the "spirit of fun" in a game, but that's about as far as I will take it.


Explain Dennis? Is it the shift in abilities such as GMA/Evade being more prevelant, heck standard Mobile Attack even, or the way heal is being given a lot more prominance, such as with the bacta tank and the rodian trader?

And your right this was Rob's baby for a long time, so no argument about that point.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:01 pm 
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dalsiandon wrote:
Explain Dennis? Is it the shift in abilities such as GMA/Evade being more prevelant, heck standard Mobile Attack even, or the way heal is being given a lot more prominance, such as with the bacta tank and the rodian trader?


Yes to all of those points. Regardless of whatever else can be said about Evade or similar damage reduction abilities, they slow the game down. They remove tactics and smart play from the game. Couple those things you mentioned with a system of play that was meant to encourage engagement ending up serving as an easy-kill-zone concept that leaves all but two or three of the game's 10 factions out in the cold, and what you get is a game that allows - nay, promotes - the design of squads that play to time to see who can get the most points, rather than a game where you try to kill everything before time runs out.

It may not be a universal experience and I'm sure there are people out there who are capable of forcing the game to conclude in kill-em-all style, but I think the style of play, based on what I've observed, is a majority-of-the-time issue, and not an isolated incident.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:26 pm 
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I think there's a reasonable argument that all that is true enough, though I'd say it falls into the unintented consequences category than intentional design. (Regardless, the end result is the same if you buy the argument.)

I wonder if going the negative incentive route is really the only solution. I still think there's less drastic stuff that deserves a try, but it doesn't stop me from wondering... :) (While it has admitted abusive possibilities, I still think 3 point win, 2 point tiebreaker lead, 1 point loss, 0 point tiebreaker trail has potential for larger tourneys and is might be scorable with the match options available in DCI reporter.)

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:35 pm 
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NickName wrote:
I think there's a reasonable argument that all that is true enough, though I'd say it falls into the unintented consequences category than intentional design. (Regardless, the end result is the same if you buy the argument.)

I wonder if going the negative incentive route is really the only solution. I still think there's less drastic stuff that deserves a try, but it doesn't stop me from wondering... :) (While it has admitted abusive possibilities, I still think 3 point win, 2 point tiebreaker lead, 1 point loss, 0 point tiebreaker trail has potential for larger tourneys and is might be scorable with the match options available in DCI reporter.)


I can agree that some of that was unintended consequence, like Gambit. I'm sure Rob never intended Gambit to be used to stall out the game. I have advocated - not very loudly, but nevertheless - the idea that Gambit be worth more like 10 points, but on some maps it won't help.

I will never really understand what Rob was thinking when he made General Rieekan, and I think it is fair to say that SSM was just a total brain fart.

Of course, there's the old saying about what the road to Hades is paved with, and it probably applies here, at least in part.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:15 pm 
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Ok, I realize jumping in here is the sure fire way to get my head taken off, but I never have been known for keep butt out of trouble so here goes. I agree with Dean on what he is saying. Yes I do play with pieces that have Evade or can give it. But when I saw the prelease thing on wizards about this piece i just had to shake my head. They didn't really fix the problem at all they watered it down a little. IMO the way to fix the ability was to go back to the errata that cause the problem in the first place and change it back to the way it was. Simple. If this is done it should solve it I think. There said now waiting for the return fire. (Ducking head and taking cover.)

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:11 am 
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Ganthet wrote:
Ok, I realize jumping in here is the sure fire way to get my head taken off, but I never have been known for keep butt out of trouble so here goes. I agree with Dean on what he is saying. Yes I do play with pieces that have Evade or can give it. But when I saw the prelease thing on wizards about this piece i just had to shake my head. They didn't really fix the problem at all they watered it down a little. IMO the way to fix the ability was to go back to the errata that cause the problem in the first place and change it back to the way it was. Simple. If this is done it should solve it I think. There said now waiting for the return fire. (Ducking head and taking cover.)


Well I'm not gonna blast t you, because what you siad is very much somethign that folks around here have knocked about. And of course as you've prolly already read, we have no power or authority as players in WOTC to get any sort of adjustments done, it's all on them now.

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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:38 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I will never really understand what Rob was thinking when he made General Rieekan, and I think it is fair to say that SSM was just a total brain fart.


I think it's probably more fair to say that with SSM was Rob saying, "ok, fine, you want to complain about melee EVERY set? Here you go. Now melee is awesome. You reap what you sew." Let's face it. The SWM community got exaclty what it asked for for years in SSM.

Since everyone is just giving their opinions, I'm going to give mine:

To say there is no counter to SSM is incorrect. To say that there is no 'universal' counter to SSM is more accurate. (Yes, I have read through the whole thread and the line about no counter to SSM shows up more than once- oddly, several times right before or after the line talking about it's counters...) This also applies to Disintigration and Bombad Gungan, which I believe is what Boris was trying to point out a while ago.

But in the end, is this really just a thread about abilities that piss us off? Or mechanics that Rob dropped the ball on? I'll tell you mine from day one. Accurate Shot. This ability getting around Stealth sent this game into a downward spiral IMO. It led to many more pieces getting Stealth, then Super Stealth, then more Accurate Shot, etc, etc, etc. Master Tactitian was number 2. GMA, IMHO, contributed to the advent of SSM. It should ONLY have been given to melee characters. The whole game could have been brought into balance, but no, Rob had to go and give it to more and more shooters. So continues the cries from us (me in particular) that melee can't compete because we cross the map and can't get to the multiple-attacking shooters who are GMA'ing till the cows come home.

I'm confused by all the talk about Yathzee (sp?) and chess. This is a d20 game. The fact that you have to roll a die makes this a luck based game. Tactics can improve probablilities and odds, but you can't alter the fact that luck will always, and should always play a part in this game. This is coming from a guy who played against Master Tactitian almost every game he played for 3 years. If this thread is about getting things off your chest- man did I HATE that ability.

My 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: My Problem with Soresu Style Mastery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Good post :)


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