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Should SSM Change?
yes, errata the ability so it is like parry+evade 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
yes, but alter it in some other fashion 5%  5%  [ 4 ]
no, only GOWK needs addressing 60%  60%  [ 47 ]
no changes at all, reintroduce GOWK as is 17%  17%  [ 13 ]
too early to tell 14%  14%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 78

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:42 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
I don't agree that it's this simple. For example, VAR is also a melee character, but people use him for his ranged option as much as as a melee figure.


This quote and what follows is basically true. There are pieces with Melee Attack that have a poweful ranged option and more typically get used as shooters. VAR is a good example. And their are nonmelee pieces which have melee class stats, damage that ramps up when adjacent, and substandard ranged damage for their cost. Although these characters don't technically have the Melee Attack ability, they work in the game as a melee character. Mara Jedi and Aurra JH are good examples.

The only bit I disagree with is that Luke's Snowspeeder in any way shape or form is a melee piece. It gains no benefit through its own abilities from being adjacent. Its damage curve is flat. It prefers to maintain range unless the opposing squad's abilities/positioning make closing an advantage. In short, it's a shooter that's so good that it can operate like a melee interference piece without really having the properties (most importantly, disadvantages) of one.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:17 am 
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its just options at the end of the day.

Non-melee pieces always have more options than Melee because they have no range restriction. It doesn't matter what you consider a figures role to be in a squad. Melee attack is a pretty large restriction in this game so saying "i use this piece as melee" is incorrect (in game terms; although i have no problems understanding the intent from a language perspective). You use it as interference or you use it aggressively to get around evade.

Melee attack has a special place in this game because of the detriment the SA adds to pieces that have it. VAR, Luke RC, VAder U, GMY are all special cases of melee figures that have ranged options with reasonable limits increasing their effectiveness.
I don't think this game has ever really done justice to the figures restricted by bringing a knife to a gun fight although presently there are many figures with the Melee Attack SA who have a lot to bring to the table. I like that aspect.

A point i like to draw attention too is that for a figure with Parry many melee pieces are reduced to half their effectiveness unless they are one of the few who have been granted other dmg potential options. Until SSM, non-melee pieces always had the opportunity of doing dmg to evading pieces, they just had to get close to them. Its for this reason that I see SSM as being a reasonable addition to the game. Shooters will only ever have a 50/50 potential of dmg even when they get adjacent. This is nothing new for melee pieces who have had to contend with Parry and Block whereas shooters have only had to deal with deflect. Perhaps SSM will go someway to readdressing the melee attack imbalance.

anyway, back on topic, has anyone play tested GOWK without MotF2? Its seems to me to be the quickest and most obvious fix to GOWK. He'll still be stronger that FlObi but flight really adds a unique dimension to FlObis game. Perhaps GOWK would be best losing Mettle and MotF2.

I think he would be a decent 55 points with SSM, Knight speed, Push and his awesome CE.

For some reason i stray away from errataing mettle or SSM and i don't really want to recost GOWK, i'd rather see him just lose some abilities until he's costed decently.
Mettle and MotF2 break him so i think they should just go. At the very least MotF2 but perhaps MotF2 and Mettle so that FlObi has an extra advantage over his cheaper brother.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:38 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:56 pm 
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I tend to agree Deri. It isn't going to fix it all, but I think the best answer is to remove MotF2 and Mettle and be done with it. At the end of the day, he's still going to be quite strong and annoying in many games, but I think that's enough to take away the problem aspects. And I really don't see any other significant options left considering Flobi and SS.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:13 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
I don't agree that it's this simple. For example, VAR is also a melee character, but people use him for his ranged option as much as as a melee figure. In fact, that's about the only reason people will run him. Yoda GM used correctly brings an excellent ranged option. Same with Vader Unleashed. Point is there are plenty of "melee" figures who find their way into squads because of their "ranged" options. Figures that can provide multiple roles to a squad are often valued higher than those occupying only one niche. It gives you the flexibility to compete in a tournament environement.

I stated this, but that doesn't change the fact that a melee, even with force powers, is still very limited on who he can attack. Currently we have only a select amount of force powers that really affect multiple figures, lighting, push 5/3, repulse, lightsaber throw, sweep, now given the nature of these abilities you depend on 3 things. 1 is having the force points and being able to be in position to use them. 2 is actually affecting multiple figures This can be difficult because any decent player knows how these abilities work and when they will be struck. 3 is the recoup, normally after a massive force use, you are drained and may need to recover before you can do much else.

Force powers also do not negate targeting (excluding lightsaber throw 3 and 5) so any chance of us hitting a big piece can be brought down by a mouse droid.

billiv15 wrote:
Melee or not isn't the only answer here. The best squads for a long time in this game have generally been some version of what we call "melee interference". They are squads that are flexible in nature, and can go toe to toe, but also protect their big shooter(s) in the back as well. It doesn't matter if the "melee interference" piece(s) are technically melee, if that is the role they play in the squad. Using beefy and/or quick shooters in some cases, can be a better choice, simply because of the additional flexibility they provide.


I don't really know what you mean by melee interference, honestly any shooter that doesn't have accurate will be shooting at whatever is in front of them anyway (quite possibly a beat stick.) That doesn't make a quad shooter melee interference, it makes them going after your "big guy". You pick and choose your targets based on how your opponent acts and you react and vise versa.

billiv15 wrote:
It also depends on faction. Luke's Snowspeeder is a tremendous melee interference figure because of it's speed, its DR, access to Evade to protect it from the opposing shooter, and flight. It can also be the primary shooter in a competely different squad, and it was used both ways this year at Gencon. But like the Han Scoundrel Cannon only squads in 2008 (no interefence), they failed to get it done in the end. Han only finished 4th in 08. The two speeder only's this year lost in the quarterfinals. There are reasons for this that are other than what I have discussed, but the point is still made here. The best of the best, tend to be those squads with options for interference and shooting. Pure melee and pure shooter can get darn close in many cases, and other than Gencon can win most LGS tournaments. They seem to always struggle at the top of the game however.


Again the snow speeder is not melee interference it is a interference piece in general. Anything that can move such a great distance, have no AoO's and still get 2 shots off is a wonderful piece. The thing I'm starting to see more and more is more of a Tactic. It is slow advancement, tempo control, and a bit of a wait. Pick off any of their big guys on their way in, finish them off by the time they get there. From that point on it is just cleaning up the mess.
**side note** If you really want to run a ranged piece as a melee piece, then by all means do not shoot until you are adjacent.

billiv15 wrote:
Many people say as Deri has said, that it's only melee that has other functions. Well I submit to you, the same is more or less true of shooters as well. The best of the best shooters, are those that synergize well with the other elements. Han Scoundrel is only great because of LEia and Obi. Han Smuggler only because of Reeikan and Leia. Boba BH only because of R2 and Bothans (he's the closest to the lone exception as well). Aurra Sing JH is great, because she is tough to take down at range, and gets really dangerous when you close in, particularly with force users. In the case of Deri's winning squad, not only was he using Han Smuggler, but he also employed the ERC - great because of Madine and Luke, and the additional overide for his map (train), Madine great because of the ERC and disruptive to remove evade. You get the point I think.


I fail to see how you apply these shooters are taking on different roles. Han will always be a shooter, and more-so to do damage with accurate. Disruptive is obvious because you have to be within 6, but common sense tells me to put madine in with ERCs simply because of their base 10 damage and 7 attack. Regardless madine would never be used as a melee piece, offensive-yes or situational. Unlike a melee piece, there would have to be a damn good reason that Madine has based a figure with damage potential. You haven't changed the rolls of anyone, you have simply increased their damage output and options for positioning.

billiv15 wrote:
The best squads are always those that have flexbility, options and synergize well for the points. They include an interference element (Deri had Luke Commando, but also the ERC to function in this role), and they include some ranged options. They also include door control, but most often, the best of the best are those where the figures provide multiple roles and benefits to the squad.


I agree with the synergy, but that is the basis of squad building. It is redundant to run a squad with General Wedge Antilles if all of your characters are either commanders or have evade/mobile attack. This is not a new revelation.

billiv15 wrote:
And this post gives me a great idea for my next "Playing to Win" article. I also think this might make a nice discussion point for the Radio show. So expect to hear some more from me on the topic as I think it through further :)

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:56 pm 
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kazklar wrote:
Force powers also do not negate targeting (excluding lightsaber throw 3 and 5) so any chance of us hitting a big piece can be brought down by a mouse droid.
Neither do non-accurate shooters. And when people run non-accurate shooters, which btw is very common in the current meta, they have to consider how they get around screens. Anyone running force push does the exact same thing. It's really no different at all actually.

kazklar wrote:
I don't really know what you mean by melee interference, honestly any shooter that doesn't have accurate will be shooting at whatever is in front of them anyway (quite possibly a beat stick.) That doesn't make a quad shooter melee interference, it makes them going after your "big guy". You pick and choose your targets based on how your opponent acts and you react and vise versa.
I gotta disagree with you there. If all you ever do is pick and choose based on how your opponent moves, then you will lose to the best of the best almost everytime. I'm not going to do a massive strategy session on this, but I think the easy example of Luke's snowspeeder and it's massive speed options works well enough to pick and choose what I want to attack and when.

kazklar wrote:
Again the snow speeder is not melee interference it is a interference piece in general. Anything that can move such a great distance, have no AoO's and still get 2 shots off is a wonderful piece. The thing I'm starting to see more and more is more of a Tactic. It is slow advancement, tempo control, and a bit of a wait. Pick off any of their big guys on their way in, finish them off by the time they get there. From that point on it is just cleaning up the mess.
**side note** If you really want to run a ranged piece as a melee piece, then by all means do not shoot until you are adjacent.
The bold point is completely semantics. You picked one of several examples I gave. How about Aurra JH then? I've used Luke HPU in this roll before. I can call it "melee interference" if I want to because it makes a different point that simply interference. I used WFFs in that role in 2007 and made the top 8 with it. I can count on one hand how many ranged shots they took in all 8 of my games that year. I'm trying to differentiate the role a figure takes in a squad, and simply calling it interference doesn't have the same meaning. If you want to call it something else, that's fine, it's a point I am trying to make about options that's important here.

As to your point about the slow play strategy, well, that's another topic altogether. Frankly, its something that's been around for a long time.

kazklar wrote:
You haven't changed the rolls of anyone, you have simply increased their damage output and options for positioning.
That wasn't the only point I was making. The point was that each of those combos increases the options. You mentioned it as well in bold. The point is this. Many of you say, "Melee sucks, it's not competitive". I respond with, "What about Vader JH in 2005, Vader JH in B&B 2006, JWMs with Broken Boba in 2007, Loda in 2008, and Luke Commando in 2009, or Yodabuck, or the Lancer, etc." The inevitable response is, "those don't count because they aren't X". I'm sick of it. No one makes the same requirements of the non-melee pieces that compete that they do of the melee pieces. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Han Scoundrel is garbage without Leia and Obi. Luke's SS is an ok piece without Leia and Reeikan. Han Smuggler is garbage without the same. Be fair in your critiques. If you are gonna say all melee sucks because you dismiss every competitive melee that has another gimmick, then you have to do exactly the same for all non-melee. Melee pieces have to have a role in a squad when they can't easily get to the opponent. That's why the pieces with a gimmick option, tend to be the most competitive, especially in the current meta with the current map list. If you change the maps, there are a great many other melee that can compete that people might consider non-gimmicky. Anyways, try running a good shooter without his support and you will start to see what I am saying. Melee has a roll in squad building at the top of the game, always has.

What people really want are melee that can play the role of primary damage dealer, not just be competitive. That's the key here. Problem is, if you create a melee figure that can do this for any old player, then you have a figure like GOWK. There are plenty of melee figures that can do this in a variety of squad designs, it's just that most players aren't capable of pulling it off on a regular basis.

Further, at venues like Gencon, some of us would be comfortable playing melee (I had an almost all melee 200pt squad, and my 100 used Yoda GM) in the champs itself if not for one factor. Championship play includes people taking every advantage, and that means hiding and running, and slow playing. It's very hard to win in a 5-6 round game with a melee figure as your primary damage dealer in many cases, especially with the current map list. But even given this, it wasn't until about 12:30PM Sat morning that I finally bagged my plans of running Lord Vader in the Champs. Let me guess, he doesn't count because I would have used Thrawn swapping to get him into position to kill.....

kazklar wrote:
I agree with the synergy, but that is the basis of squad building. It is redundant to run a squad with General Wedge Antilles if all of your characters are either commanders or have evade/mobile attack. This is not a new revelation.
Maybe I wasn't clear, but I am talking about a much deeper level. Madine and an ERC have obvious synergy. But using Madine, the ERC and Luke Commando to set off the ERC, and to actually pull this off in a Speeder heavy meta, together with a strong map choice is so much more than that. Further, using Luke to pull of Han shots and in particular, Han granted Leia shots is more than most players can really see coming in many cases. And the player that can see the options has the advantage. That's the point. Luke in this squad is melee interference, with another role to play as well. He also can benefit from Leia and Madine, but in particular, he can put the shooters in places that the opponent can't always account for.

billiv15 wrote:
And this post gives me a great idea for my next "Playing to Win" article. I also think this might make a nice discussion point for the Radio show. So expect to hear some more from me on the topic as I think it through further :)
kazklar wrote:
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Don't think I asked permission. But reading your response even furthers that I should address this deeper level of squad building. I've said things for years about this, but never been clear on how to get it all to make sense to others. It's why net decking doesn't work, and it's why squad building itself has little bearing on most game out comes.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:11 pm 
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On lord vader, it would not have cared if you had played LV. I do not see any problems with melee pieces or any pieces that have the ability to swap across the board in 1 turn because of a character in your squad. Again, that is a tactical move that, like you stated, your opponent can't always account for.

One thing that really sets a squad off is how well you know your pieces. Map, your opponent, and your opponents squad are also factors to consider. Different players have different styles of play, while aggressive they may be slow to advance. Another player might be quick to advance and hold a key position on the map.

You kind of contradicted your own statement about shooting depending on what your opponent does. If your opponent is advancing a few key peices and leaving commanders in the back unguarded, then by all means you go after the commanders to make your life easier.

-Non accurate shooters now-a-days normally have at least twin, if not greater mobile. This advantage is for shooting those front pieces and knocking out "blockers." Characters with force powers normally don't get that extra chance to hit the guy behind him/her/it.

I was being irrationally blunt at the end of my post just because I was done typing at that point. The easiest thing to do for people is tell them to playtest and playtest some more. The ability to adapt to situations is one of the key components to competitive play.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:24 pm 
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I think it may still be too early to tell. And I think what Bill mentioned back on the first page is fairly close to the best solutions idea. But while not picking a solution I pick a phrase "SIMPLE". Often the simplest solution is the best, not because it solves everything, but it's easiest to implement, and adjust to.

KISS is still the proper acronym.


I also like the stated point about the cost to FlObi. He is costed so much higher, it might be an acknowledgement to GOWK.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:54 am 
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I'm at the point that I think bringing back GOWK minus mettle would be at least meta changing enough that the game might be fun again. At least for a little bit longer. Before anyone even starts throwing numbers at me, it might be worth mentioning I know a little how probabilities work, it's just the "he's out of force points, he's not nearly as scary anymore function". :-p I'd rather do small downward adjustments (first mettle, and if that becomes too dominant / unfun, then MotF2) personally.

Does anyone else find the current meta really boring? I think that's why the game feels so flat right now, the advent of Rieekan, certain maps being legal, and the banning of GOWK all kinda contributed to this fairly stale meta.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Cybit wrote:
Does anyone else find the current meta really boring? I think that's why the game feels so flat right now, the advent of Rieekan, certain maps being legal, and the banning of GOWK all kinda contributed to this fairly stale meta.


The meta always seems kinda stale this many months after a release, and in particular, this time after Gencon. Once Gencon "proves" to most players what the best of the best is, their thinking and creativity is left at the door. That's the reality of the yearly post-Gencon depression period :)

Sometimes gamers just have to be patient. We can't fix it all at once. But if you think bringing GOWK back makes the game more fun, well that's your prerogative. I don't believe a character who is close to immune to damage from attacks makes for a fun competitive game for very long. I suggest you guys stop playing 150. And if you are having trouble with the snowspeeder at 200 or 100, well that's not a game issue, that's a play issue for your crew. Its not nearly as bad as trying to beat GOWK with anything but direct damage or extreme luck.

AS for the map list, I suggest just limiting it locally. All you need is the approval of your players together and you can solve that issue (which isn't just a Snowspeeder issue actually) and do it. Say your "Preparing for the January map list" or some such excuse. It will be changing I am fairly confident in that. What exactly it will look like however, I do not know. I would guess that Taris and Teth are likely gone, and that likely Hoth Outpost and Ratattack are gone as well. But that's just a guess.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:34 pm 
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I think it's worse this year than it has been in other years at this time. Part of that is because Jedi Academy was a lackluster set. I'm sure there are people that use it, but let's face it - nothing from JA was at the top tables at GC, it had no real utility pieces worth running, and didn't do much to fix the problems of the EU factions. People can scream "Fringe" all day long but if you are relying on Fringe to solve the problems in your faction, well IMO that is not really running that faction, it's playing great Fringe pieces with otherwise sub-par faction elements.

The rest of the reason that the meta is so stale is the direction Rob took it in before he was canned. GMA + Extra + Twin vs. Evade/SSM vs. Auto-damage = boring.

They have backed themselves into a corner that quite frankly, I'm not sure they can get out of by only utilizing design.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:13 pm 
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I still dont believe there is a problem at 200. Evade does no good if you base. With the thinking of regionals and Gencon champs going to 200 with maps limited should help the problem. I think maps will really help the 150 problem and with a little help from WOTC in the next few sets should work itself out. Most of the time I dont say lets see whats next but this time thats all I can say. I feel Peter will do his best for the game even if WOTC is going down hill. I dont think it will take that much to change the Evade twin crap. I do feel with all the power the other factions have been getting it might work itself out. I see now where Rob was going. Go super power to some factions and others get Defense distruptive to counter it. Its just that the defense right now is stronger then the power. It might work itself out but the game is turning more into a luck based game.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:29 pm 
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Aye, I can't think of too much I see from JA played much.

@Bill: 200 seemed actually to tone down GOWK's power, at least out here. We have been playing 150 more then normal (it's normally played half the time, 200 the other half), but after BlooMilk I think we may not touch 150 with a ten foot pole for some time. I kinda wish they'd schedule the October set in September, perhaps the weekend after GenCon. It would give people new things to play with, and at least keep things fresh on an ongoing basis. That would put one set in May (right around regionals!), one in September (right after GenCon and during sweeps), and one in January (right after...well, beginning of a new year! huzzah! Also month before sweeps).

I just want *something* to shake stuff up. Balancing a game is somewhat irrelevant if the game is not fun and people don't want to play it. :-p

Actually, it's not really snowspeeder that is the problem, it's the han/leia/rieekan/dodonna problem; that's just such an optimized combination for points that it's hard to really build a top tier rebel squad without that thrown in there.

@Boris: Yeah, they went for the triangle of balance (auto damage, rebels, tons of attacks), and that balance gets thrown out of whack when one of the legs is pulled off the table (course, building one leg out of wood, one out of steel, and another out of titanium is also the issue in that regard).

I wish Battle Meditation had been something along the lines of "All of your commander effects are now rangeless. Enemies cannot benefit from commander effects as long as this piece is alive". Granted, only Bastila could have that (its OR, you could give them a lot of things before they'd become broken), but it might tone down the asinine amounts of commander effects flying around.

@jonny: It's not just as simple as "go base". If I have the ability to basically force an enemy to engage at close range, that's a huge freaking tactical advantage. 200 is more based on asinine amounts of firepower rather then survivability, which is kinda what 150 is based on. Obviously you need some balance, but it feels like that on a general basis.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:46 am 
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About the topic of this thread concerning GOWK/SSM/FlObi:

First of all, I agree with a lot that has been said on here by Bill, Deri and several others. I think the overall resolution will be to have several of GOWK's abilities eliminated in order to make him a reasonable mini to put back into the competitive game. With that said, the biggest abilities that have been talked about eliminating from GOWK is "Mettle" and "Master of the Force 2" and possibly his commander effect.

My question is: What is the reason no one brings up the option to take away "Force Renewal" and leave GOWK with 4, 5, or 6 Force points. I almost think taking away Force Renewal would fix things almost as well or possibly better than taking away "Master of the Force 2."

I am not arguing that point, but rather just wondering if there is a particular reason that issue is not brought up. I know it has been discussed before, but is it something that has been dismissed? You could still modify "Mettle" and possilby still take away "Master of the Force 2." I'm just curious to the thought process behind all of this.

Help me out, what am I missing?


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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:55 pm 
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GOWK with 5-6 force is still broken. IF he had 6 force that means its old GOWK in a 4 round game. Taking away MOTF and Mettle is the easiest way right now. GOWK with 5-6 force can still avoid around 500-600 damage. I think thats way too much damage to avoid. GOWK was under costed he is banned and bringing him back right now would be bad for the game. The GOWK meta sucked he was any too strong to take down with just atks. The SS can be taken down by a lot of other squads.

well 200 is all about geting in and getting out fast or avoiding damage making you come to them aka wedge leia combo. Basing is the oldest trick in the book vs evade. Thats why Deri won,phil with the speeder and Bill using the ss as a melee attacker did so well vs the snow speeder at 150. I only know two main ways about dealing with the meta: base or Disruptive.I dont think shooting at evading hoping they miss the save is a good move in a 6 round tournament. yes you can still play Hide and seek still getting in 9 rounds with the score being 20 to 15. But thats got even getting close to the score of the game. You can use missiles/cestas but thats a different story.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:01 pm 
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This isn't aimed at you Jonny but you are the first to post it that I have seen.

How is GOWK with 5-6 FPs broken and yet Flobi with 5 FPs is fine and balanced?

The MOTF2 and Mettle while it lets you almost surely prevent 1 "pack" of damage it still burns up FPs so you won't be able to prevent other damage. Both are still going to be hard to kill (almost exactly the same through the first 3-4 rds).

IF GOWK canprevent 4-500 then Flobi should be able to prevent 2-300 right? Still ough for any attack based squad to chew through.

I think a restricted map list (as much as I HATE this idea) will bring much balance to the game although I am not sure which maps would actually be "balanced" as the more I play them the more I see the imbalances of all the maps.

Personally I have always thought that GOWK was fine (difficult but fine) and I also agree with the majority that Flobi is also fine although I think that Flobi may be stronger than GOWK becauseof his built in R2 but that is just me and only time will tell. I think that Boris has had a much better point that it really has gotten to playing GMA evading (rerollig with Leia in NR) squads that hide out and blast you as you try to approach.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:20 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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@ everyone: So no one likes my idea of just saying he has Soresu Style(aka evade) and not mastery? Its simple, easy to explain and should balance the figure out IMOA.

@urbanjedi remember in a timed game(aka DCI) you not need that many force point to live to the end. It not like everyone is going to be able to shoot him the whole match much less actually hit and then GOWK failing his Save to use a force point. I do agree that Flobi is not broken with his set force point, but that has to do more with the pack deal you get with Flobi than anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:22 pm 
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Flobi as it is called will be as big a problem as GOWK was. You heard it here first.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:51 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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urbanjedi wrote:
This isn't aimed at you Jonny but you are the first to post it that I have seen.

How is GOWK with 5-6 FPs broken and yet Flobi with 5 FPs is fine and balanced?

The MOTF2 and Mettle while it lets you almost surely prevent 1 "pack" of damage it still burns up FPs so you won't be able to prevent other damage. Both are still going to be hard to kill (almost exactly the same through the first 3-4 rds).

IF GOWK canprevent 4-500 then Flobi should be able to prevent 2-300 right? Still ough for any attack based squad to chew through.

I think a restricted map list (as much as I HATE this idea) will bring much balance to the game although I am not sure which maps would actually be "balanced" as the more I play them the more I see the imbalances of all the maps.

Personally I have always thought that GOWK was fine (difficult but fine) and I also agree with the majority that Flobi is also fine although I think that Flobi may be stronger than GOWK becauseof his built in R2 but that is just me and only time will tell. I think that Boris has had a much better point that it really has gotten to playing GMA evading (rerollig with Leia in NR) squads that hide out and blast you as you try to approach.

See most games I played with GOWK. All I had to do is use him as clean up. Most of the time I never used up all his force. I could even get a push off mid game and GOWK could still stay alive. Flobi doesnt have the crazy CE,11 points more,MOTF2,and push. All of that even with a base 5 force is still too much. My Game vs dean which GOWK avoided 800 damage only went 5-6 rounds. Yes that 2-3 extra force would make a little difference but in the end GOWK is under costed. WOTC I dont think wants to change GOWK so we are stuck with Flobi. I really dont think bringing GOWK how he is back would be a good idea. Flobi doesnt have the support GOWK had.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem that FlObi brings
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:34 am 
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I agree that GOWK should cost more (although how much more I am not sure as the more he costs the less other stuff you can kill to score points).

All I am sayng (which Boris just said) is that one mini cannot be "balanced" when another mini with a very similar stat line is so imbalanced he must be banned.

Flobi pairs better than GOWK with some of his main shooter support (Rex and Dash) Rex can actually benefit and 50% more attacks for Dash (even though they have a 20% less chance of hitting) is more than a fair trade. He may not work quite as well in a non-shooter support squad and certainly not as good on the defensive side of things. However I still think he will easily be top tier and maybe even better than that.

People seem to be overlooking the builtin R2. Pay 11 extra and get a 2nd R2 for your trouble.
I can also move and use double? seems really good to me (or I can run away if thngs get too close for comfort) And allowing all ALLIES to get extra attack seems quite good also. Terrible twileks in the Rep with a tank to lead the charge and R2 to set up nice lines? Lots of options even more so than GOWK albiet different options. Cad could be pretty good here as well although it would be a lot of points (low activations lke Gobuck or GOWK and Boba squads).

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