Not really a leap more of a "soar" .
Flying Obi is the reason. Its not my idea i just thought it was funny, it came up in the wizards thread and it stuck in my head (CerousMutor). ObiFly was another nickname (sergione). Obi JG is quite close to Obi JK also.

Anyway, i voted to deal with Just GOWK and personally i'd just like to see him lose MotF2 and just be done with this whole debacle. I float around on this issue but I continually come back to this train of thought so i've decided that this would please me the most.

There are many reasons for it and i'll probably forget some here but.

1. I don't think FlObi is going to be all that good, in fact i feel he will struggle to make competitive teams. He is not as offensive as Mace who is only 5 points more and Mace has never seen competitive play since 2006. His 5 force is gonna go very quick on suprise move and rerolls. He will be a good swap piece but his cost kind of makes 150 a hard sell and his CE is not that great.
He is all about Flight, suprise move and SSM. He is a commander/tech piece killer. With only one force reroll, rex and Dash should be able to put a lot of hurt on him consistently. Kyle should beat him in a 1 on 1.

2. GOWK is a very strong piece and will be even without MotF2 but i don't really mind that. There is no reason why these two Obis should be comparitive in cost there are always stronger and weaker editions of pieces. I also feel that MOTF2 is what puts him over the edge. He should never have had it, there is no reason for it. If you take that away then his FR loses a step and i feel its a significant step particually in a game where quad attacks in a turn are becoming more frequent.

3. Republic need something to compete with rebels at 150. I'm not sure if anything in this set allows them to do that. FlObi is the closest to competitng but see my argument above.
without activation control the republic NEED unparralleled survivability to compete. Gen Con showed this. Even a 160 hp 20 defence figure died to fast.

I also voted 'Only GOWK needs to be addressed', and for the most part I agree with Master_Jorth.
I just don't think we have to remove MotF 2 at 65 points. At 65 points, I don't think we need to remove anything else from him (just alter his CE to affect "followers with Order 66"). Although if we kept him at 55 points then a removal of MotF 2 would make sense.

Let's say GOWK ends up with 9 FP compared to the 5 FP of Flying Obi in a typical game. Let us further presume that GOWK spends 1 FP on Knight Speed and 8 FP on rerolling SSM saves while Flying Obi spends 1 FP on Surprise Move and 4 FP on rerolling SSM saves. Suppose then that every SSM reroll will negate 20 damage on average. Then the FP spent on SSM rerolls would net GOWK 8*20 = 160 Hit Points while the FP spent on rerolls would net Flying Obi 4*20 = 80 Hit Points.

But what if the cost of rerolling SSM saves was instead 2 FP? Then in the same example the FP spent on SSM rerolls would net GOWK 4*20 = 80 Hit Points while they would net Flying Obi 2*20 = 40 Hit Points. Changing the cost for SSM rerolls would thus for GOWK result in going from 160 damage negated to 80 damage negated, = - 80 Hit Points. For Flying Obi the cost increase would mean that instead of negating 80 damage he'd only negate 40 damage = - 40 Hit Points. So was GOWK or Flying Obi hurt more by the change? Well, since the change for GOWK meant losing the equivalent of 80 Hit Points in damage negated while for Flying Obi the change meant losing the equivalent of 40 Hit Points in damage negated and 80 > 40 it would seem that GOWK was hurt worse than Flying Obi by this change.

Eh, I guess I see how you think your math makes sense (and it does...from a certain point of view). But the fact is that it still hurts FlObi, who really doesn't need to be hurt at all.

Let's look at your math from a different perspective though. Say each of those Obi's get hit by 160 points worth of damage. Using your numbers, with only 1 FP needed to re-roll, GOWK would take no damage (8*20), and FlObi would take 80 (160 - 4*20). OK, that makes sense, given that GOWK can re-roll twice. But now, let's change that 2 FPs per re-roll of SSM. GOWK would take 80 damage now (160 - 4*20), while FlObi would be dead (160-2*20).

Yes, it does hurt GOWK MORE than it hurts FlObi. That wasn't my point. My point was that it hurts FlObi period. It's difficult to say for sure at this point without knowing the rest of the pieces in the set. But at this point, it looks like FlObi is fine exactly as he is. So if you change SSM in any way that makes FlObi less powerful, then you're likely going to knock him right out of the competitive brackets.

I'm still OK with the idea of changing SSM so it only negates the first 20 damage, but then it really doesn't mesh very well with the regular Soresu Style. I still think if the decision is to change SSM and not GOWK, then going the Parry + Evade route is best overall. But I honestly think that the danger in changing just SSM is that we may balance GOWK and make him able to be un-banned, but in the process we'll make FlObi worthless. Doesn't make any sense to un-ban GOWK if he's going to immediately cause FlObi to go into the EBoD.

May well be true. Too early too tell for sure yet.



Ah. From reading your earlier post I inferred your point to be that Flying Obi is hurt worse than GOWK by changing the cost of SSM rerolls to 2 FP.



But if we are talking absolutes, then yes, Flying Obi would also be hurt if SSM was weakened.



Agreed, it's difficult to say for sure at this point how competitive Flying Obi really is. And the claim that any change to SSM which makes Flying Obi less powerful would knock him out of the competitive bracket does seem to lack solid support for now. At the very least the magnitude of any such change to SSM would seem to be of significance to the effect said change would have on the competitiveness of Flying Obi. I'm not convinced that changing the cost of SSM rerolls to 2 FP would result in the power Flying Obi to drop from competitive to uncompetitive.

The actual impact of changing the cost of SSM rerolls on Flying Obi would also depend on the available alternatives for spending FP. The actual loss in power would amount to the difference between the best way of spending FP and the second best way. And IMO, Flying Obi's "Surprise Move" which may not only grant an improved position but also an extra attack would often be the best option and at other times only slightly less effective than rerolling a SSM save for one FP would have been. And because of this strong alternative way of spending FP, Flying Obi would be less affected if the cost of SSM rerolls was increased. I absolute terms but also relative to GOWK, which does not seem to have as strong alternatives for spending his FP.

I am. I put Flobi out there as a likely Tier 2 type mini, and probably only at 200 in most cases. Any change in him likely makes him next to worthless. GOWK was the top dog when he was legal, but even then, there were some things that could compete with him, even if it was an uphill and unfair advantage. And look at my analysis above for a direct comparison of Flobi to GOWK. Anyone who thinks Flobi is top tier competitive at this moment would be in the minority. Now, obviously we don't know it all yet, so it's really too early to tell (for certain). But based on his stats alone, and my knowledge of what I can do with him, he's tier 2 maybe 1.5 and maybe, just maybe can hit tier 1 in 200.

And remember, I like him a lot and look forward to using and abusing him

I think it's pretty clear that changing SSM is off the table at this point. If it was on the table, I think a solution would have been worked out months ago, which is what I alluded to in an earlier post.

I guess I thought LoboSteele meant something better than tier 2 when he used the term "competitive". A drop from tier 2 to well, whatever lies below that, let's just say it would not make the headline news. That is, if Flying Obi is that weak it might perhaps be as well to drop him entirely from the discussion and focus on an appropriate solution for GOWK, since he actually could make a difference in the competitive game.

As to exactly what solution might emerge, it may well be that another solution than an errata for SSM is currently favored.

Regarding GOWK I think it was pretty interesting to see how he turned out to be a highly competitive piece but not completely dominant by any means. Given how GOWK in comparison to most other melee pieces was obscenely good, that gave a fairly clear indication as to just how big the gap between melee and mobile ranged pieces really is.

I guess there must be some confusion as to what I mean by the term "Tier 2". Tier 2 squads are competitive in about 99% of situations. They just probably aren't winning Gencon without a lot of luck. Most players don't even play Tier 2 types stuff at most LGS'. It would be a great shame to create such a situation.


I don't even understand the first statement, nor do I want to even get into what I think you are saying. The second statement isn't reality. I could give plenty of examples of competitive melee figures, but I won't bother, because I've done that 1000s of times in response to this generalization and it never gets me anywhere. Suffice it to say, the winning Gencon squad had a very important melee piece in it. And the second place squad used one of it's shooters as a "melee" piece with ranged options. 3rd place was Yodabuck. So 2/3 had a major melee piece in it, and the third of those three used his snowspeeder as a melee piece in many situations.

If that's what you mean with "Tier 2" I agree that situation would be worth avoiding.





I don't see any particular advantage in you understanding the first statement. I think we might then be in complete agreement on how not to further pursue the issue.



Don't bother. The statement was not a request for a thesis on the matter.



Which as far as I understand it had not made the squad, had it not in additon to its melee capabilites offered a significant mobility option.



If a piece has a ranged attack, it no longer qualifies as a melee piece as far as I am concerned. Unless of course it never used that ranged option. Which is impossible, since it would have made a difference just by the opponent being aware of it.



If a piece can move 26 squares in a turn and attack multiple times while moving those 26 squares it hardly seems worth mentioning at the same time as traditional move 6 squares and attack pieces. They are no longer playing in the same league.



It seems you mean to indicate that melee in fact played a significant role in the above squads. Fine. If that's so I won't argue it any further. It's no problem. I will give myself a stern warning for having allowed this conversation to drift this far off topic though.

There is no problem with Obi JG, he is greatly costed for his points.

SSM is fine as long as you keep GOWK out of the picture, he has 5 Fp's and will more than likely burn a few using surprise move. Along with burning some to RR SSM saves he will be down to a little more than parry and evade.
Yea he still has mettle but its no different from Even Pielle (sp?) or Nomi, he has a good defensive power and a Strong commander Effect.

Rex is still Fragile on defense allowing him to be killed. the point cost on anything larger than rex starts to eat away at points a lot.

I don't agree with changing it at all, people who spent money on GOWK or traded can /crymore and get over it. Wizards made the right choice to ban GOWK and there is no need to try and "alter" what they have done any further.

OFF TRACK
mara jedi has a ranged a attack but is used mainly as a "melee" attacker same with Aurra JH. Anakin stap is used as a "melee" attacker in most swap squads at 200. I use Dash as a "melee" attack in a lot of republic swaps. Deri used the Luke's movement so he could base with the ERC or Han. Even though they are shooters players use them as "melee" attackers with all the evade going around. WWF have a ranged attack but most people might think they are melee since every one uses them as "melee" attackers. In my gungan swarm I used Rex/R2 tow to base with so they can finish what the gungans have done so rex stays alive. The best piece to use as a "melee attacker" is the landspeeder or luke's ss. Most of the top squads use some type of piece that can base while their main shooter can stay alive.With all the evade going around you have to base to get around that. Having a piece that can do that even if it doesnt have to is needed in a top squad. You cant just run all shooters now a day and hope that you can win.
ON TOPIC I think
This new Obi is good but will go down with multi attacks in most games unless the dice are hot for your opponent. With all the multi attackers and r4,wickets around Obi should be able to die in a timed game unless he gets some new CE that we dont know about. I believe this Obi isnt a tier 1 piece. Yes the CE is great and he has SSM but he for 66 points he will go down. Flight and Surprise move will be under rated. I think he will be a 200 piece after we see all the other pieces. I really hope he doesnt get a Allied Yoda CE or Evade then he will be broken like GOWK was. The 66 point cost makes it so you really have limited firepower at 150 from what GOWK could do. With out the CE taking down his support shouldnt be a problem. I believe the CE will make 200 obi squads more shooter based than the balance GOWk squads had at 200.
RANT
I dont know if any of this obi info will be true I might just suck at the game and have no clue what i am talking about. For what it is worth I believe in what I am saying even if I am wrong. Most of you think I am an Idiot and have no clue what I am talking about. Well I do think some of the time I under play how smart I can be.
JONNY OUT

I have gone the road of no change is needed and to bring gowk as he was unchanged.

I urged patience and waitfor JA and then I waited until after JA to say ban Gowk and after regionals I thought it was a good idea. Now after going to Gencon I feel it was the wrong thing to do.

you might run these shooters and are forced to use them as meleebecause of the abundance of evade but the fact is that aside from luke RC they are all non-melee. This gives them more versatility as even though the game aften forces them adjacent they really don't have to be. Melee attack special ability is a penalty and these days melee pieces are not used unless they bring soemthign else to the table like galloping attack, strong disrutpive, good commander effects or levitation.
Even teh JWM and JBM don't really offer enough to get into T1 squads



i agree with this



Easy on the self pity Jon. You came 2nd in 2 regionals, the chicago regional was the 2nd largest and arguably the toughest one going so i don't think you need to justify yourself with statements like the above.

o I was just messing around deri. Dennis was telling me I shouldnt say I think the new obi is balanced till we see all the figures. I believe from what I know He should be balanced but we still havent seen all the figures from the set yet. I still believe people should have an opinion even if all the facts arent on the table yet. So the rant was me going crazy about the whole problem.

Leave GOWK banned.

'nough Said

@ Jonny
I have to disagree with "shooters" being melee. All that is happening is you are Basing the figure, that is not melee. That is negating cover bonuses or Evade. Sure with all of the Evade out there shooters have to be more aggressive but nothing is wrong with keeping your mostly greater mobilers in and out of LOS while slowly pelting away at your enemies. Even more obvious is the special ability of melee. Melee gives you no option to attack at a range (excluding force powers or MR), while ranged characters defeating an adjacent, are allowed to shoot AT OTHER FIGURES.

Here are my thoughts on GOWK

I don't agree that it's this simple. For example, VAR is also a melee character, but people use him for his ranged option as much as as a melee figure. In fact, that's about the only reason people will run him. Yoda GM used correctly brings an excellent ranged option. Same with Vader Unleashed. Point is there are plenty of "melee" figures who find their way into squads because of their "ranged" options. Figures that can provide multiple roles to a squad are often valued higher than those occupying only one niche. It gives you the flexibility to compete in a tournament environement.

Melee or not isn't the only answer here. The best squads for a long time in this game have generally been some version of what we call "melee interference". They are squads that are flexible in nature, and can go toe to toe, but also protect their big shooter(s) in the back as well. It doesn't matter if the "melee interference" piece(s) are technically melee, if that is the role they play in the squad. Using beefy and/or quick shooters in some cases, can be a better choice, simply because of the additional flexibility they provide.

It also depends on faction. Luke's Snowspeeder is a tremendous melee interference figure because of it's speed, its DR, access to Evade to protect it from the opposing shooter, and flight. It can also be the primary shooter in a competely different squad, and it was used both ways this year at Gencon. But like the Han Scoundrel Cannon only squads in 2008 (no interefence), they failed to get it done in the end. Han only finished 4th in 08. The two speeder only's this year lost in the quarterfinals. There are reasons for this that are other than what I have discussed, but the point is still made here. The best of the best, tend to be those squads with options for interference and shooting. Pure melee and pure shooter can get darn close in many cases, and other than Gencon can win most LGS tournaments. They seem to always struggle at the top of the game however.

Many people say as Deri has said, that it's only melee that has other functions. Well I submit to you, the same is more or less true of shooters as well. The best of the best shooters, are those that synergize well with the other elements. Han Scoundrel is only great because of LEia and Obi. Han Smuggler only because of Reeikan and Leia. Boba BH only because of R2 and Bothans (he's the closest to the lone exception as well). Aurra Sing JH is great, because she is tough to take down at range, and gets really dangerous when you close in, particularly with force users. In the case of Deri's winning squad, not only was he using Han Smuggler, but he also employed the ERC - great because of Madine and Luke, and the additional overide for his map (train), Madine great because of the ERC and disruptive to remove evade. You get the point I think.

The best squads are always those that have flexbility, options and synergize well for the points. They include an interference element (Deri had Luke Commando, but also the ERC to function in this role), and they include some ranged options. They also include door control, but most often, the best of the best are those where the figures provide multiple roles and benefits to the squad.

And this post gives me a great idea for my next "Playing to Win" article. I also think this might make a nice discussion point for the Radio show. So expect to hear some more from me on the topic as I think it through further

I'm going to guess that GaW was in production or being sent off to production around the time the ban was put into place. While WotC knows more about what's to come than players do, it's players who know more about what the actual competitive scene is like.

My first choice would be to recost GOWK significantly, such as making him cost 85 points, putting him into the top tier Jedi group.

My second choice would be to revise SSM and SS to be incompatible with Mettle. GOWK is currently the only figure with either SSM or SS and Mettle. So the impact could be factored into any new figures that have both SS* and Mettle.

No, FlObi has Mettle as well, so changing SSM to not work with Mettle would affect FlObi as well. Though I don't really see that being the major issue though. We've done the math before. GOWK without Mettle still has an 87.5% chance to avoid any damage at all. It really isn't the Mettle, it's the MOTF2. Granted, that means he burns through more FPs. I personally think it's easier to just issue an Errata that says to remove Mettle from GOWK's card if you're going to do it that way. There's plenty of other erratas to remove or add something to a piece's card.