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 Post subject: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:26 pm 
Death Star Designers
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I think for the first time we are seeing 200pts being seriously thought of as being the new championship format, yet the biggest hesitation i am hearing is the time it takes. During the game, once fighting starts there are generally so many attacks being made that i think the damage stacks up pretty fast to decide the winner with the exception of full game chess matches where its hard for either person to engage without dying. I dont think this plays out any different than 150 right now. You have fewer characters, but you also have less damage output.

To me the end of game procedure is where you hit the problems. If two people get an init off right before time is called, you could be waiting another15 minutes if most of both armies are alive. Again this can be 150 as much as 200, so here is my thought.

In WoWM, when time is called, you do not play another 10 clicks. You finish the click you are on and then play two more clicks. What do people think about possibly changing the EoG procedures to this format: You finish the current set of activations, and then each player has one turn (two activations or as dictated by squad type(San/Ozzel))?

I think this would help shorten the EoGP, shortening the time between rounds, and has the outside chance of speeding up play because people know once time is called that is pretty much it.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:02 pm 
Master of the Order
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That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
I could see where it might muck up games where the tide is almost sure to take a major turn in 2-3 more sets of activations, but probably not in just one. Still, it would prevent tournaments from dragging on, so it is very worthy of consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:04 pm 
Death Star Designers
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I think the easiest solution is to just change it to "players have 5 minutes to complete the round" and leave it at that. I say that because I have witnessed more than one game where a player took well over 10 minutes trying to decide what to do with a single character (and once it was 45 minutes) because time had been called and, the way they saw it, how long they took was no longer an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:10 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Well, hopefully that is where a judge would step in. That is WAY too long for one move. Although it would be pretty easy to say that players have 10 Min to complete EoGP. When that is up the game stops period.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:26 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
Well, hopefully that is where a judge would step in. That is WAY too long for one move. Although it would be pretty easy to say that players have 10 Min to complete EoGP. When that is up the game stops period.


I'd be on board with that. I think it would be a welcome addition to my guidelines for slow play judging if you would like me to add it. I think taking too long after time has been called is just as much an issue of slow play as any of the other things I have been talking about. Want to write something up and I will add it?

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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:52 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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I don't know about this being a needed change. With judges being on the lookout for slowplay and stalling, I don't think its unreasonable for a judge to use his or her own judgement when it comes to whether or not an EoG is taking too long. If its taking too long then a warning can be issued. The problem with one set of activations each means that whoever went first that round could have an advantage by having more sets of activations that round, as well as putting squads with many smaller threats at a disadvantage over squads with fewer but bigger threats. I really do not think this is a needed change, but just something that a judge needs to be aware of.


I think that one more set of activations each is such a token amount that you may as well just call stop to all games or finish that turn. I would say that if it is a problem, this is something to leave to the discretion of the judges, as finishing the round is simply the most fair way to handle it at the moment, and cutting it to shorter amount of time will not only not make it any fairer, but could make it less fair.


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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:02 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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I like the idea of adding instead of 2 activations just a flat 10 minutes. Realistically that is more than enough time to complete an entire round. Really also at that point there should not be that many activations.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:03 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
I like the idea of adding instead of 2 activations just a flat 10 minutes. Realistically that is more than enough time to complete an entire round. Really also at that point there should not be that many activations.


Yes, I was in support of the 10 minute limit. And I see no reason not to add that to the stalling guidelines if Scott agrees that this would be a good place to put it.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:21 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Go right ahead and add it where you see fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:29 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Section 616 of the DCI Floor Rules has the sentence

Quote:
If a match ends before a player meets the victory condition, players complete the current round.


Just change that to

Quote:
If a match ends before a player meets the victory condition, players have 10 minutes to complete the current round.


I mentioned this exact same thing in the suggested changes thread (though I think 5 minutes is more than enough time) :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:31 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Go right ahead and add it where you see fit. The reason i brought it up is if 200 were the new championship format, then i can see tables just rolling a new init and if the game is close or even, it could add a good chunk of time between games. If we stay 150 i dont know how much is needed, but i would also be good with saying 10 and then you stop where ever you are if you have not hit the end of that round.

If people feel the two turn after time isnt enough to really do anything, then how would you feel about when time is called game is up?

The one drawback i see to saying 10min and time is up is that if someone has an edge they could stall hardcore (granted they could be doing that anyway at the end of regulation), but i could really see it being worse with just a 10min limit. Granted this would only happen if init just beat time being called.

The other thing i thought up if we did the one turn after time route is what if an init falls within the last two activations. Here is what i see:

1)Time on A, B's turn, init before A can go
2) Time on A, Init

If 1 were to happen, i would say it stops and the game is over because A would get to reactivate a major character where B would not so it would end after B.

If two were to happen, we could leave things as is and that is game because time was called before init, or we could say roll init and each player will get their one turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing End of Game Procedures
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:26 pm 
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Being a (current/former/up-in-the-air) WizKids (now owned by NECA) Envoy, I like the WK system of letting players know when they are halfway through the game time limit and then letting them know when they're at ABOUT the 10 minute mark -- not the exact time left, but about how much time is left -- so they can't manipulate the ending time. Then when time runs out, the active player finishes the one action they were starting or in the middle of. Done. No delay tactics, no nothing. Done.

As our co-SWM league organizer, we allow a little more leniency. Part of that is the night SWM plays (with extended store hours) vs the night HC plays, part of that is the fun atmosphere we try to have with the variety of players. But we don't move much from that "done" concept. Yes, we try to let them finish the round. But if they take too long, they're done. Determine the winner as is and go to the next round.

So I like the modified suggested EoG format: let players know when time is close to up, buzzer rings, each player gets two more activations, then done.

When players of either game know the rules up front, it doesn't seem to be a problem. Keeps things on time and keeps arguments down. No way you do it will eliminate the "but, if ..." Monday morning quarterback syndrome.

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