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 Post subject: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:23 pm 
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Here's a radical idea you guys will probably hate. :lol:

Acting characters may not target or attack enemies within the gambit zone unless they are within 6 squares.
If an acting character is outside of the gambit zone, that character cannot target or attack nonadjacent enemies
within the gambit zone unless within 6 squares. (edit: Updated Version)

Now that's the kind of gambit zone that would make for a good battle.
The gambit zone was supposed to force players to fight for the center of the map.
However, it just became the "killbox" for shooter squads.
Current gambit zone is where 5 victory points are gained at the end of a round by a 3pt character. (Yawn)

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Last edited by DarkDracul on Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:29 pm 
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Some of us have been discussing that idea. You can probably guess - based on comments in some of these other threads - how the idea has been received.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:25 am 
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Yep, that's the exact same thing that Dennis suggested in one of the other threads. It's not a terrible idea, and it definitely has some merit. I just think it creates as many problems as it solves. It would give the possibility of completely safe spaces on some maps because of how the gambit squares work out (Yavin Temple for instance). It also effectively gives cloaked to any piece sitting in the gambit zone. Caamasi nobles become HUGE because you could block opponents from getting into some gambit areas.

Personally, I just feel like it's a "change for change's sake" (sort of what you've been cautioning against in other threads, Dennis). Granted, I haven't play-tested it specifically, just run through some scenarios in my head. If there's a particular benefit to the idea that I might be missing, I'm all ears.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:54 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Yep, that's the exact same thing that Dennis suggested in one of the other threads. It's not a terrible idea, and it definitely has some merit. I just think it creates as many problems as it solves. It would give the possibility of completely safe spaces on some maps because of how the gambit squares work out (Yavin Temple for instance). It also effectively gives cloaked to any piece sitting in the gambit zone. Caamasi nobles become HUGE because you could block opponents from getting into some gambit areas.

Personally, I just feel like it's a "change for change's sake" (sort of what you've been cautioning against in other threads, Dennis). Granted, I haven't play-tested it specifically, just run through some scenarios in my head. If there's a particular benefit to the idea that I might be missing, I'm all ears.


Well I didn't want to get into specifics, like who proposed it etc. etc.

I haven't really playtested the idea, either, but I am trying to look at this from the aspect of why gambit was introduced in the first place and why it doesn't really work the way it used to.

Yes, it was designed to prevent lock-out turtling Override wins. But then it became a focus to get to the build total, and Gambit sped that option up. Then mobile attack + twin attack characters came out - along with some maps that made getting Gambit difficult - and those two things, IMO, is when the slow play and stalling suddenly became prevalent. I think the game at that point became less about engagement and more about just scoring points. Cover the gambit zone with mobile shooters and pop anything that gets too close. It may not be in the original spirit of the game, and may not even be the way WotC would prefer the game to be played now. But these are the rules they created. Get the points lead and then retreat. Going for gambit is often times suicide that just widens the point gap.


Of all the ideas I've heard about refocusing on the spirit of engagement to "kill-em-all" I still like this idea best - though I completely agree it needs LOTS of playtesting.

BTW, here was the most recent definition of the suggestion:

A character within 4 squares of the center of the map cannot target or be targeted by a non-adjacent enemy more than 4 squares away from the center of the map.


Couple this with some additional gambit zones (the entire middle two center columns length-wise, for example) and it has the potential to be a big step in playing the game in the way that many prefer without taking away from people who just want to win on points.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:57 am 
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Wouldn't this be more like a tile wars game? Basically all the area outside the gambit would be wasted dead space, right?

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:07 am 
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You know what, I think the idea is an interesting one, but a bit too radical for the short term.

Let's shift gears and call this "King of the Hill" format or something and start testing it outside of the champs discussion. Let's get the idea refined through finding the abuses through gameplay.

I think the game desperately needs more good, simple formats and maybe if it builds up a following it gets into the floor rules like DD and maybe eventually even replaces Gambit as the format of choice for high level tourneys.

But I've long thought that Engineer's idea (borrowed from DDM 1.0 I think) of having multiple formats you must play with the same squad over the course of a tourney does really interesting things to the metagame.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:11 pm 
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Not a bad idea on changing up the game.

This is from Star Wars Miniverse website:
    Modified Gambit:
    If you have a character in gambit at the end of the round, you assign 10 points of damage to your opponent who may apply it to any one of his characters.

Another idea is that only one side, and one side alone, should receive the Gambit bonus. IMO, this will get the "heavy hitters" -- the pieces with alot of hit points vying for the Gambit area; not just the support pieces whose only role in the game is to soak up Gambit round after round. This tactic could work well with characters with a Force Rating that can push, repulse other characters out of the Gambit area.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:16 pm 
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Weird that you mention that here. I saw it just recently, and thought it was interesting too. My only addition would be that you can't use it to defeat a character.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:21 pm 
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It is a good idea, except for dip. That could be a big problem.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:47 am 
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This isn't suggesting change for the sake of change.
I remember the intention of gambit when it was first introduced to the dci game.

The gambit. An elegant solution, for a more civilized game.
For many years, the gambit guarded us from turtling and the lockout.
Before the killbox. Before the slowplay.

The gambit zone was supposed to be the answer to the “problem” issues.
However, the game continued to evolve and gambit failed to keep up.
So perhaps a gambit update would restore gambit within the game.

I agree, it will need lots of play testing. King of the hill is a perfect name.
I hope to play test and see how it works, post results later.

A few subtle differences in my definition.
Characters in the gambit zone would be able to target nonadjacent characters.
Characters in gambit wouldn’t be susceptible to non-targeting effects.

Not sure the idea of only one player-controlling gambit each round wouldn’t work here.
With a “protected” gambit zone, one player might collect a one-sided points advantage.

Benefits of the “king of the hill” gambit:

It would require shooters to be played more aggressively.
Shooters would try to hit enemy characters before they could reach gambit,
instead of waiting around for the character that moved into gambit.

It would force shooters to move towards the center of the map.
Shooters would need to step inside gambit themselves to target enemies in gambit.
It could encourage shooters to take risks, instead of hiding in a corner.

It creates a rallying point for battle with high point characters.
It’s a place to battle without fear of being picked off by unreachable shooters.
Players will have to blow doors and use blocking techniques to control gambit.
Which sounds much more interesting IMO than the current use of gambit.

Cons:
Diplomat. ((Possible fix: Characters inside the gambit zone lose diplomat?))

I’m not convinced, but the format may require it’s own list of legal maps.
I still have not yet found a “completely” safe space in a gambit zone.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:13 am 
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DarkDracul wrote:
I’m not convinced, but the format may require it’s own list of legal maps.
I still have not yet found a “completely” safe space in a gambit zone.


If you use the idea of "characters in gambit can only be targetted by enemies if they are adjacent or within gambit themselves" then the Yavin Temple map is the best one to look at for a safe square. The bottom left square of the gambit zone is within the small room below the center of the map, and thus would be a completely safe square unless you were adjacent to the piece sitting there.

My biggest concern with ideas like this is honestly Grand Master Luke right now. Plop him in that single square (easy to do on Round 1 from the Hangar side of the map). Now, anyone who wants to kill him has to base him in order to target him. Next round you either take a Triple Twin, or at least an AoO. Just seems like it would be too abusive.

Plus, it doesn't just hurt shooter squads, it could effectively remove them from competition altogether. For any fragile shooters like Atton Rand, Storm Commandos, Dash, Rex, etc., it wouldn't be that hard for an opponent to stay completely out of LOS as they approach gambit, and then rush into the middle all in one turn. Then those shooters have to close in to within 4 squares or less of their target in order to keep shooting. Part of the only reason those shooters are usable is the fact that they can stay at a distance and lay down the damage. As soon as they get close to opponents, they get shredded becaues of their low HP/Def. Now, I'm all for Melee being a bit more powerful, but I think this would shift it too far in the other direction.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:39 am 
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Some good points above about possible abuse.

My thoughts on King of the Hill 1.1 rule:

Characters within the gambit zone may not be targeted or attacked from further than 6 squares away, and attackers must remain within 6 after targeting this character for the duration of the turn.

(Latter bit may not be necessary, but is there to stop long range mobile attack offensive retreats.)

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:55 am 
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Well, the worst abuse possible for the Mobile attacking/retreating stuff is the Snowspeeder, which, on average will be 14 squares from the character in gambit (half of it's Mobile speed, plus the 6 squares), so, roughly within 1 turn of movement. The Snowspeeder is really the only piece that's a major problem, IMO. Increasing that range to 6 squares from Dennis' idea gives the shooters a little more survivability. I think it would be a matter of finding some balance of what distance works well for everything.

What about something like Characters within the gambit zone that have cover may not be targeted or attacked from further than 6 squares away.

(Bolded letters were my addition)

If you're gutsy enough to put pieces wide-out in the open in gambit, then I don't really think it's fair to penalize the opponent. It's like plopping a target out there and saying "Nyah nyah, can't shoot me!"

I'm also thinking about abuse like the Golan Turret sitting in gambit. It would get at least 1, probably 2 rounds of safety while it sits there.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:34 am 
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Your addition fails the original goal of making all the open gambit maps still promote engagement.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:59 am 
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NickName wrote:
Some good points above about possible abuse.

My thoughts on King of the Hill 1.1 rule:

Characters within the gambit zone may not be targeted or attacked from further than 6 squares away, and attackers must remain within 6 after targeting this character for the duration of the turn.

(Latter bit may not be necessary, but is there to stop long range mobile attack offensive retreats.)


Your definition creates a situation where I can camp in gambit and attacking anything coming in, regardless of distance. A reverse killbox of sorts.

The definition I came up with, including some of the suggestions, creates two zones of combat. Inside Gambit and outside Gambit.

Neither is necessarily better, just different.

I do like the movement suggestion. Maybe something like: a character within 4 squares of the center of the map cannot target or be targeted by a non-adjacent enemy more than 4 squares from the center of the map. Characters that move to within 4 squares of the center of the map, or adjacent to a character within 4 squares of the center, must immediately end their move in the closest legal square to the center.

Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:48 am 
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DarkDracul wrote:
Benefits of the “king of the hill” gambit:

It would require shooters to be played more aggressively.
Shooters would try to hit enemy characters before they could reach gambit,
instead of waiting around for the character that moved into gambit.

It would force shooters to move towards the center of the map.
Shooters would need to step inside gambit themselves to target enemies in gambit.
It could encourage shooters to take risks, instead of hiding in a corner.

It creates a rallying point for battle with high point characters.
It’s a place to battle without fear of being picked off by unreachable shooters.
Players will have to blow doors and use blocking techniques to control gambit.
Which sounds much more interesting IMO than the current use of gambit.

Cons:
Diplomat. ((Possible fix: Characters inside the gambit zone lose diplomat?))

I’m not convinced, but the format may require it’s own list of legal maps.
I still have not yet found a “completely” safe space in a gambit zone.

Should that "fix" work for characters with Cloaked (Force or otherwise), since they'll be shooting at something eventually when the opportunity presents itself? I know from using this tactic in the past that, if there is cover within the Gambit area, it is virtually impossible to defeat said character if they're dug in, nice 'n cozy.
Another concern that has or may, come up on this subject is the interpretation of "Emplacemet". I can see Emperor Palpatine on Thone being the exception, because he has the ability to "fight" for Gambit, but the other two (Golan Arms DF.9 Anti-Infantry Battery [maybe this could fall on the other side because it, too, can fight] and the Bacta Tank) need a special addendum to deal with Gambit. That's five points from the the get-go. Perhaps, there should be something in the scoring in the form of a "bonus". Only characters in Gambit can be attacked by enemy characters also in Gambit. Consider it a five point bonus for defeating someone in Gambit. Although now, this may bring up the idea of "flooding" Gambit with any available piece. But would that be a "bad thing"?

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:08 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Your definition creates a situation where I can camp in gambit and attacking anything coming in, regardless of distance. A reverse killbox of sorts.

The definition I came up with, including some of the suggestions, creates two zones of combat. Inside Gambit and outside Gambit.


Ah, yes. I hadn't noticed that element is lost. Will think more. (At the same time, that element directly leads to some of the abuses mentioned so maybe it needs to be lost? Maybe blurring the line a bit helps?)

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:14 pm 
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NickName wrote:
My thoughts on King of the Hill 1.1 rule:
Characters within the gambit zone may not be targeted or attacked from further than 6 squares away, and attackers must remain within 6 after targeting this character for the duration of the turn.
(Latter bit may not be necessary, but is there to stop long range mobile attack offensive retreats.)

Fantastic! (Yes, I would drop the last bit.)

King of the Hill...“I’ll give you my guns when you take it from my cold, dead hands."

Acting characters may not target or attack enemies within the gambit zone unless they are within 6 squares.

I don’t think mobile attackers would be an abusive problem here.
Even a Snowspeeder can't mobile within 6 to shoot a Jedi (1fp)
without beginning or ending its move within the 14 square reach of that Jedi.
In those exchanges it could come down to whomever wins initiative.

To attack a Cloaked character within gambit in cover you would have to be adjacent
or move within 6 to where there’s no cover.
Emplacement pieces in gambit would not get shot up and die as quickly.
Diplomats would still be pesky things.
I don’t think the challenges would be any worse than some we already face.

Hopefully this format would encourage players to camp in gambit.
Stop all the dancing back and forth trying to figure out the battleground.
We’re only playing for an hour; lets get to the battle already!


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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:38 am 
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I think it would be fun if different maps could have different gambit rules based on the map, with those rules (playtested by R&D, of course) printed right on it.

For example,

On a map with a visible energy shield protecting the gambit area...
Gambit Rule: Characters outside of gambit cannot make ranged attacks against characters inside.

On a map where the gambit area is a control center...
Gambit Rule: The highest costing character in gambit gains override, and may use that ability on any door on this map (ignoring line of sight).

On a map where the gambit area is a communications center...
Gambit Rule: Commanders that activate inside the gambit area gain Booming Voice.

On a map where gambit is a command post or beacon tower...
Gambit Rule: When initiative is rolled, if gambit is controlled by only one player, that player may add 10 points worth of Reinforcements to his starting area.

On a map where gambit is a surveillance post...
Gambit Rule: Characters activating within the gambit area gain Accurate Shot.

On a map where the gambit area is a Jedi/Sith shrine...
Gambit Rule: Characters that activate in the gambit area gain Force Renewal +1.

On a map where gambit is a munitions depot...
Gambit Rule: Characters that activate in the gambit area gain Grenades [20] for the rest of the game.

Lots of potential fun, and it can reinforce the synergy between your squad and your map choice. If they prove problematic, these effects could be ignored for sanctioned games.

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 Post subject: Re: A Gambit Zone to stop slow play.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:36 am 
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Taking this one step further, imagine a gambit area where the center is a Sith holocron...

Gambit Effect: Character gains 1 Force Point and 1 additional Force Power (Roll 1d20):
20 - Player chooses 1 effect from this list and adds it to the character
19 - Character gains Force Corruption 3 and one extra Force Point
18 - Character gains Force Bubble
17 - Character gains Force Renewal +1
16 - Character gains Overwhelming Force
15 - Character gains Pawn of the Dark Side
14 - Character gains Force Burst
13 - Character gains Force Grip 10
12 - Character gains Force Lightning 1
11 - Character gains Drain Life 10
10- Character gains Master Speed
9 - Character gains Force Spirit 3
8 - Character gains Force Stun
7 - Character gains Force Thrust 10
6 - Character gains Force Push 2
5 - Character gains Force Sense
4 - Character gains Force Cloak
3 - Character gains Savage
2 - Character gains Force Empathic 10
1 - Character takes 40 damage.

Characters with Force Immunity are not subject to this gambit effect. Each character is only subject to this gambit effect once (the first time the character activates in gambit).

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