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 Post subject: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:03 pm 
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I was very pleased by the turn-out for TILE WARS. I am now fully aware of what a rabid and loyal following this format has gained!

First and foremost - Congratulations to both Deri Morgan and Phillip Carlisle for going undefeated with 4-0 records in the tournament. Deri edged out Phillip in the stregnth of schedule tie-breaker to win it all, but they are both tops in my book. Phillip also won the first ever GenCon TILE WARS tournament last years when it was 100pts. Of course everyone knows by now that Deri won this year's championship, and Phillip made it to the top 8, even knocking off 3 time finalist Aaron B (Lobosteele) in the semi-finals. So it looks like the best players are also dominant in TILE WARS. Phillip was running Grievous DAC with some IG droids and a Lancer. Deri ran double disruptive with Kyle Katarn BM, Han GH, Mara Jade Jedi, General Wedge Antilles, and an Ossus Guardian.

The tournament had 27 players enter, which I was thrilled with. Not only did it blow last year's 10 entries out of the water, but it did so with things stacked against it. Let's face it - 10pm start on the night before the championship is not a great time slot. The fact that the team tournament was running VERY late and forced us to start an hour later makes it all the more amazing we had that number.

I was told by a number of people that TILE WARS is what they mainly played. One of the things I love about this game is that if you get creative - there's a way to play that will appeal to everyone. Some people love pure DCI, some love TILE WARS, some love Dynamic Duo, and some (like me) love it all. There were even several pick-up TILE WARS tournaments that happened through-out the weekend. I handed out my squads to anyone that wanted to play, and I think the 6 I brought all got used at least once. Jim told me that he had alot of positive feedback on TILE WARS, and he saw several games of TILE WARS happening during League play as well. Jim even brought up the possibility of multiple TILE WARS tournaments happening next year. I'll be happy with just a decent time slot! (Just not during the championship or Jedi Challenge please!)

Also exciting news - 3 of Chris West's new tiles were used in the TILE WARS tournament, and 5 more are under consideration for being made legal. To check out his tiles, and for ordering info - go here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7225

He also graciously agreed to make a tile with terrain and walls designed by the winner the GenCon TILE WARS tournament each year. So Phillip and Deri get to design their own tiles, have Mapmaker make them, and then have the community use them. I am very excited about this!

Everyone please post here your thoughts and experiences on TILE WARS at GenCon, and as always - post any general thoughts on TILE WARS at our main thread here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7032


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:33 pm 
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I did not play Tile Wars, but I know several people who did.

My friend ended up missing the Championship - even though he pre-purchased his ticket - because he overslept due to this event running so late. It did not start at 10 p.m. as it was supposed to, from what I gathered.

I'm glad you had a lot of people to play, but I think there were some... concerns... about the fact that there were games going to time.

This is bound to offend some people, but I'm going to say it anyway. I think if a person is scheduled to judge events, they should not be participating in other events that might overlap.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:34 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I did not play Tile Wars, but I know several people who did.

My friend ended up missing the Championship - even though he pre-purchased his ticket - because he overslept due to this event running so late. It did not start at 10 p.m. as it was supposed to, from what I gathered.

I'm glad you had a lot of people to play, but I think there were some... concerns... about the fact that there were games going to time.

This is bound to offend some people, but I'm going to say it anyway. I think if a person is scheduled to judge events, they should not be participating in other events that might overlap.


It was unfortunate that it started later than scheduled. Most tournaments did start late that weekend, it seems it was unavoidable that weekend. Heck even the Thursday Morning 150 started nearly 2 hours late, and there was no tournament before it to push it back. Just a reality at GenCon.

The team tournament started late and ran significantly longer than anticipated. A result of the extra time it takes for the pairings as well as the extra time for set-up and selecting opponents. If things ran on time the two would not have conflicted, but I understand why this tournament didn't run on time.

It wasn't an arbitrary decision to hold off on starting the TILE WARS tournament. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I was playing in the team tournament (My team lost in the first round). It was based soley on the potential participants. I talked to both Ray and Jim throughout the Team tournament - and we were forced with a tough decision. The MAJORITY of the TILE WARS players (14 of 27) were playing in the team tournament. So we either had to force them to drop from that early, or waste their pre-purchased tickets. Through conversation with Jim and Ray - we all decided that we could not wait until the team tournament was over, but we couldn't start it during the third round of the team tournament. So we made the decision to start after the 3rd round of the team tournament, and that announcement was made at 9:30pm.
After the 3rd round of the team tournament - enough of the participants had been eliminated from winning (and the few that were still in it and wanted to play TILE WARS were understanding) so we got started. Unfortunately the pairings took far longer than thy should have. I don't know why they took almost 20 minutes for the first pairings, but they did. In fact - every round they took significantly longer than they should have for pairings. Being a first time judge I didn't know how (or even know if I could) go and make things speed up. It felt like that end was out of my control, and I was disappointed about it to say the least. But know this - I believe we made the best decision we could have faced with the unfortunate situation. Had we started earlier, more people would have wasted their pre-purchased tickets and more people would be upset. I'm sure not everyone understood all the factors that were going on, but obviously there were things that the average participant could not have known.

It was a late night no doubt, and nobody was there later than I was. It's too bad that your friend missed the championship. However, to be frank - I don't think it's fair to blame TILE WARS. I made it to the championship despite being there later than anyone on Friday night. Deri Morgan and Phillip Carlisle both not only made the Championship on time, but placed in the top 8 in the Championship after staying late and going undefeated in TILE WARS. Obviously they can wake up on time (after very little sleep) and still play brilliantly. I don't want to offend anyone here - but your friend is an adult - he should be able to make decisions on his own to make sure he wakes up in time. Perhaps a better alarm clock is in order for next year. Don't get me wrong - if I had slept in, I would be angry too. I would have (perhaps at first) looked for something else to blame as well. But in the end, if I slept in - I would have only myself to blame.

Sincerely - I wish it hadn't started late OR gone as late as it did. Jim and I have had discussions to make sure it won't happen the same way next year. We've already dropped the time limit to 45 minutes and are playtesting to see if we can enforce 30 minutes.

I look forward to next year's tournament - and I expect it to have even more participants, and run much more smoothly.


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Actually, my friend is 14, not an adult. He also wasn't the only person to miss the Championship as a result of the late night, though. EDIT: I don't think he was angry about missing the Championship, but it doesn't matter if he was or not.

I don't really want to argue about it, but this event was mismanaged, and I am not necessarily blaming you. I do think it was inappropriate for the judge of the event - any event - to play in something that conflicts. I wanted to participate in several events but wasn't able to do so because of the mass battle scheduled times.

It was a tough situation, but I think its important to understand that instead of forcing people to miss their $12 ticket event (which conflicted with the run-time of another event, btw) we had people that ultimately lost $20 spent on the Championship because they mistakenly believed the event they signed up for the night before would run and finish on time as close as possible. Should they have just skipped Tile Wars and given up their $12 instead?

Either way it went, someone got the short of the stick. There's really no defending the choices made IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:51 pm 
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Hey, let me chime in real quick on what i believe was part of the factors of some tourneys starting late or an excessive amount of time in between rounds: the guys up on stage. I do understand we seemed to harass them at times, but you just had to stand over them sometimes to get them to enter any of the events. Yes, we know they were "burdened" with always sitting at the computer, but they had no sense of urgency about it much of the time. I'm sorry, but if my time volunteering for Pastimes was that simple, you had better believe I would have made it a point to ensure that events were running smoothly and efficiently. If you can't hack the job, let someone else do it!

Okay, I got that off my chest! Carry on . . .

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:17 pm 
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I'm sure that was part of it, Ray, but not the entire issue.

The event was deliberately delayed due to the team tournament, from what I understood. The further delays were at the stage area, but let's remember they had more than just SWM going on. Magic events ran around the clock. I'm not defending the stage guys, but it's important to remember that they weren't just doing SWM.

Quite frankly, Tile Wars was slotted at a terrible time, and while I'm sure Jim didn't intend it to end up being an event that inadvertently caused at least two people to basically lose their $20 entry fee for the Saturday Championship, that is exactly what happened.

Tim, we have had to deal with double-booking people in the past, and the decision has been that you just have to pick which one you want to do and move on. Otherwise, there are some events that might never get run if we just kept pushing them back.

I'll be discussing this with Jim as well.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:40 pm 
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I'm pretty sure I'll regret this post in about twenty years, when I'm running for presidential office, but here we go...

:P

Let me start by saying, I made a lovely response to your first post last night. It flowed (flawlessly) from defending TILEWARS/Tim, to questioning your outrageous post. It was brilliant and it was perfect. As far as my posts go. Not a winning paper for a scholarship, but it would've knocked your socks off! ;)

Well, I've got that post saved, perhaps for a college thesis, but it was far too argumentative and rude for my tastes. I'm making the effort (as per a discussion I had with Dean a few weeks ago) to be a bolder person, and I believe that starts with standing up to the, well, crap, that people say.

As I dissect your second reply, lets start at the worst part and end with the best...
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I don't really want to argue about it, but this event was mismanaged, and I am not necessarily blaming you. I do think it was inappropriate for the judge of the event - any event - to play in something that conflicts. I wanted to participate in several events but wasn't able to do so because of the mass battle scheduled times.
I wrote up a few different responses to this block of text, but this portion of your post didn't deserve any of them. I hope you'll consider apologizing to Tim for this, uncalled for, paragraph...

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Either way it went, someone got the short of the stick. There's really no defending the choices made IMO.
I wish we had a number of the people (who planned on playing in the Championship Event) that overslept, because of TILEWARS... I'm sure if those guys were to contact Past Times, they'd have a refund heading their way before the week was out!

I'm not saying it was right to start the tournament that late, or to have the rounds last that long (I'm a fan of thirty-minute rounds!), but there was nothing stopping the players from dropping at any given time. Heck, Tim said at the very start that rounds would last an hour. Its GenCon. Things run late. Games go to time. That should be the first warning if any players were hoping to play in an hour long tournament, starting at 10:01, the night before the Championship.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
It was a tough situation, but I think its important to understand that instead of forcing people to miss their $12 ticket event (which conflicted with the run-time of another event, btw) we had people that ultimately lost $20 spent on the Championship because they mistakenly believed the event they signed up for the night before would run and finish on time as close as possible. Should they have just skipped Tile Wars and given up their $12 instead?
Again, I'm not saying starting that late was a good thing, but it was assumed that we would only have to play three rounds in the team tournament: More than enough time to play in both the Team and TILEWARS tournaments. As I said above, things run late, no matter how things are planned out. Are you saying that, on Thursday, the 200 point tournament shouldn't have been pushed back? I don't know about you, but I need to eat lunch and dinner if I want to... Well... Live. ;)

From what I can gather, you're saying its better for fourteen people, $168.00 in tickets, to miss playing in a tournament, than for one/two people (I've only heard of your friend*), $20.00-40.00 in tickets, to miss playing in a tournament. Not saying anyone should have to miss a tournament, but people invested money in both, thinking things would run on time.

Business 101: If you cant make everyone happy, make the majority happy. Sorry, but thats the long and short of it.

Of course, it shouldn't have to come down to that, but where do you draw the line? Everyone I spoke with/played in the TILEWARS tournament was having a great time, regardless of the late-factor... Yet people dropped. What was stopping your friend after the first round finished? If I had to guess, I'd think Tim hit the nail on the head. It sounds like your friend thought he would be able to get up the next morning, played all four rounds of TILEWARS then, ultimately, failed to wake up/pull himself out of bed.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Actually, my friend is 14, not an adult. He also wasn't the only person to miss the Championship as a result of the late night, though. EDIT: I don't think he was angry about missing the Championship, but it doesn't matter if he was or not.
I'm seventeen years old, not considered an adult by any means. Yet, I believe I had the longest drive (well, ride, but the way my mom drives, theres no way I'm shutting my eyes!! hahaha) to/from GenCon out of anyone who played in the TileWars tournament (can anyone boast a twenty minute ride home at about 3:30am?), but I was up, semi-alert, at the convention center, had purchased two dozen doughnuts and remembered not only my miniatures and badge, but also my clothing... Thank the Lord... By 9:00am that morning.

I'm not a morning person, but (with the responsibility of getting some doughnuts to the convention center) I forced myself out of bed nearly forty minutes before I would have or should have (had those doughnuts not been for the Godfather), and pried my mom's eyes open. Is it really such a tough thing to wake up with the other one/two/three people you're rooming with and walk the five minutes to Hall F? I'm sorry your friend missed the championship, but its not Tim's, or Jim's, or TILEWARS' fault.

* Speaking of your friend, who were his roommates? A mom/dad? A few worldly-gamers? Its not like his parent(s) or fellow-gamers would have left their fourteen year old son/friend to play in the tournament without him. Chances are, he was woken up, and refused to get ready. I honestly cant see any other possibilities.

Ninja'd. Right as I was doing my final grammar/spelling check, too!! I'm too sleepy to respond to your third post, but I'll send you a PM tomorrow.

...

Blah, I've said what I need to say. I hate that my first post in this epic topic sounds like it does, but I don't remember what happened most of Thursday/Friday/Saturday, so I cant quite post a tournament report.

I'd love some of those squad lists, though ... If I had them, maybe I could fudge my way through the results ... Hmm ... I shouldn't be typing this, should I? ...

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:46 am 
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I don't think anyone expected the Team Tournament to last 5 rounds and I don't know that anyone could have anticipated how long it was going to take, between rounds, for Jason to manually sort all of those teams and get pairings ready for the next round (a task that I was happy to leave in his hands). I don't think anyone expected the huge turnout that we had for the Team event and, if records were collected and sorted by the DCI software and only half the number of people would have show up I think it's safe to say that the Team Tournament would have finished much sooner.

Jason did a fantastic job with the pairings for the Team Event, under a growing amount of pressure with each passing minute, because we both knew that there was a TILEWARS event on the schedule as well. The reason TILEWARS got started so late isn't because of Tim. It's because no one could have reasonably predicted the way that the Team Tournament (which also started a bit late) played out. It was something new. The schedule was a best guess that, unfortunately, wasn't right on the mark. I believe that the late finish of the Team event and the late start of the TILEWARS event fall under the "time and unforeseen occurrences befall us all" category.

I'm very happy with the turnout for the Team Tournament. I'm very happy with the turnout for the TILEWARS event. I'm sorry not everyone had a pleasant experience. But the overwhelming success of both events, in my mind, is cause for celebration... not assignments of blame and pointing of fingers.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:17 am 
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dvader831 wrote:
Hey, let me chime in real quick on what i believe was part of the factors of some tourneys starting late or an excessive amount of time in between rounds: the guys up on stage. I do understand we seemed to harass them at times, but you just had to stand over them sometimes to get them to enter any of the events. Yes, we know they were "burdened" with always sitting at the computer, but they had no sense of urgency about it much of the time. I'm sorry, but if my time volunteering for Pastimes was that simple, you had better believe I would have made it a point to ensure that events were running smoothly and efficiently. If you can't hack the job, let someone else do it!

Okay, I got that off my chest! Carry on . . .

Agreed - that was frustrating to the max. One round after trying to be patient I finally went up to the booth and asked (trying as hard as I could to be polite) how the pairings were coming along. The guy had the last slip in front of him, but was busy playing a computer game. He looked down, and entered it, saying - "Oh, this is the last one." (Yeah thanks, we've been waiting.)

Nivuahc wrote:
I don't think anyone expected the Team Tournament to last 5 rounds and I don't know that anyone could have anticipated how long it was going to take, between rounds, for Jason to manually sort all of those teams and get pairings ready for the next round (a task that I was happy to leave in his hands). I don't think anyone expected the huge turnout that we had for the Team event and, if records were collected and sorted by the DCI software and only half the number of people would have show up I think it's safe to say that the Team Tournament would have finished much sooner.

Jason did a fantastic job with the pairings for the Team Event, under a growing amount of pressure with each passing minute, because we both knew that there was a TILEWARS event on the schedule as well. The reason TILEWARS got started so late isn't because of Tim. It's because no one could have reasonably predicted the way that the Team Tournament (which also started a bit late) played out. It was something new. The schedule was a best guess that, unfortunately, wasn't right on the mark. I believe that the late finish of the Team event and the late start of the TILEWARS event fall under the "time and unforeseen occurrences befall us all" category.

I'm very happy with the turnout for the Team Tournament. I'm very happy with the turnout for the TILEWARS event. I'm sorry not everyone had a pleasant experience. But the overwhelming success of both events, in my mind, is cause for celebration... not assignments of blame and pointing of fingers.


Thanks for focusing on what should be highlighted Chuck. We had 2 fan formats that went off with smashing success. Now we now better how to run both events, and will next year.

Dennis - I certainly am not trying to argue here. I discussed the fact that I planned on playing in the team tournament with Jim BEFORE I agreed to judge TILE WARS. It should have not been a problem to play 3 rounds of a tournament that started 4 hours earlier. That is something everyone that wanted to play in both assumed. I still think given the tough circumstances, we made the right decision.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:23 am 
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Joruus Cbaoth wrote:
. . . defending TILEWARS/Tim, to questioning your outrageous post.

I sincerely appreciate your support. I don't want this to turn into a Dennis vs Tim thing, I think what needs to be said has been said. We'll move onto what I had hoped this thread was going to be, and talk about squads and strategies implemented, etc.

Joruus Cbaoth wrote:
(I'm a fan of thirty-minute rounds!)

Noted. Having an undefeated at GenCon TILE WARS player say this holds weight. 45 minutes is now official (That shaves a full hour off a 4 round tournament), and playtest and get back to me on 30 minutes. I think we may go there by GenCon 2010

Joruus Cbaoth wrote:
Blah, I've said what I need to say. I hate that my first post in this epic topic sounds like it does, but I don't remember what happened most of Thursday/Friday/Saturday, so I cant quite post a tournament report.

I'd love some of those squad lists, though ... If I had them, maybe I could fudge my way through the results ... Hmm ... I shouldn't be typing this, should I? ...

I'll try and post them.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:21 am 
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@Joruus: Your post attempts to turn my direct responses to Tim's comments into a semantics argument that would only serve to shift the focus of the point I am making. I am not going down that road. Please note that I said I don't think my friend (or any of the people who missed the Championship due to the 3 a.m. end time for Tile Wars event) were necessarily angry. I am disappointed that a tournament that should have been over by midnight or 12:30 at the latest ended up going until 3 a.m., to the result of causing people to not particpate in the Championship for which they paid to play. This has next to nothing to do with what the event was and almost everything to do with how it impacted the Championship. To call the event a "smashing success" does those people an injustice, even if none of them felt it important enough to mention to Jim or to Tim.

@Chuck and Tim: While I'm very glad there were 27 people to play in Tile Wars, I just wouldn't call it a "smashing success" or whatever other phrase has been/could be applied. No tournament was supposed to go more than 4 rounds, so that's another issue that wasn't expected.

IMO the tone of the first post unfairly disregards the impact the decisions made about the team tournament and this event had on a handful of people, and I don't just mean those who missed the Championship. So I responded.

I will reserve any further comments for private discussion.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:48 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I am disappointed that a tournament that should have been over by midnight or 12:30 at the latest ended up going until 3 a.m., to the result of causing people to not particpate in the Championship for which they paid to play.


Then direct your anger/disappointment at the one guy who took the full hour every round in order to finish his games. The tournament was slotted to start at 10pm. 4 rounds meant 2am finish time AT THE EARLIEST. EVERY single event at GenCon starts at least a few minutes late. Add to that the fact that someone took the full hour every round, and then the usual delays with enter W/L's and getting new pairings....you were looking at at least 2:30 or 3am REGARDLESS of whether the Tile Wars tournament started on time or whether the judge was participating in a different event.

Anyone who signed up for Tile Wars knew ahead of time that there was a good chance the tournament would go till 2 in the morning. That's why a lot of us didn't play in it.

I think to harass Tim's choice to play in the Team Event, or to place any blame on the length of the Tile Wars event because of that is just plain stupid. Chuck is right on in this case. This was simply a scenario of unforeseen things coming together and working really badly for once. I'm pretty sure Jim et al already recognize that they need to schedule Tile Wars for a different slot next year.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:06 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I am disappointed that a tournament that should have been over by midnight or 12:30 at the latest ended up going until 3 a.m., to the result of causing people to not particpate in the Championship for which they paid to play.


Then direct your anger/disappointment at the one guy who took the full hour every round in order to finish his games.


I don't know that guy, but it wouldn't matter if I did. That was the responsibility of the judges to handle him during the tournament, not mine to gripe at him or about him after the fact.

Quote:
The tournament was slotted to start at 10pm.


And actually started closer to 11:30, not "a few minutes late."

Regardless, we are getting sidetracked from the point I was making. Tim called it a "smashing success." I disagree with that assessment.

I am not blaming any one particular person, nor do I have feelings of "anger/disappointment" regarding one person. I am disappointed that it was deemed acceptable to put people in the position of losing $20 on their Championship ticket by making the team tournament go one round more than it should have and in turn delaying the start of Tile Wars because the person judging TW was playing the team event, and because many people bought tickets for an event that very obviously overlapped.

Quote:
Anyone who signed up for Tile Wars knew ahead of time that there was a good chance the tournament would go till 2 in the morning. That's why a lot of us didn't play in it.


But even Tim acknowledges that people signed up for BOTH, and that that was a factor in the decision to delay the start of TW. Is it any less to expect those people didn't realize the events would overlap?

Beyond that, I think you have missed my point.

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I think to harass Tim's choice to play in the Team Event, or to place any blame on the length of the Tile Wars event because of that is just plain stupid. Chuck is right on in this case. This was simply a scenario of unforeseen things coming together and working really badly for once. I'm pretty sure Jim et al already recognize that they need to schedule Tile Wars for a different slot next year.


If you consider my comments to "harass Tim's choice to play in the Team Event," then you really don't know me all that well. Stating that I don't think it is appropriate for judges of SWM events at GenCon to participate in potentially conflicting events is NOT harassment. It's barely anything. I would have loved to have played in about four or five more tournaments, but the mass battle events conflicted by anywhere from an hour to two hours. It would have been irresponsible for me to play tournaments when I was supposed to be running events. I could just imagine the backlash if people were standing around waiting for one of the mass battles to start because I was playing a skirmish tournament, or because I noted 3-5 people who were signed up to play were in a skirmish game...

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I don't know that guy, but it wouldn't matter if I did. That was the responsibility of the judges to handle him during the tournament, not mine to gripe at him or about him after the fact.


There was nothing the judges could do. He was playing within the rules.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
And actually started closer to 11:30, not "a few minutes late."


Hmmm...didn't think it was THAT late, but I didn't play in it, so I don't specifically remember. But Tim also said that the delay was partly to do with the Pasttimes staff. In addition, I believe Jim and Tim and the others involved in the decision to delay it, were probably banking on the Tile Wars games finishing in much less than an hour, thus making the delayed start not such a big deal.


Grand Moff Boris wrote:
...making the team tournament go one round more than it should have...


What do you mean? Go one more round than it should have? We had 21 teams. That dictated a 5 round event in order to get down to one person. At the very least, it had to be a 4 round event, because that's what all the other non-Championship events were at GenCon.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
...delaying the start of Tile Wars because the person judging TW was playing the team event...


Tim already said once that the Tile Wars event was not delayed because of him and him alone. Over half of the players for Tile Wars were involved in the Team Event. Jim (and Jim alone holds responsibility for this decision, IMO) probably chose to delay the event thinking that 1) Tile Wars usually goes quick, and 2) starting it a tad later would allow many more players to be involved, and 3) WOW the Team Event was more popular than they thought, so it would suck to completely screw people over because they thought they might get to do both.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
...because many people bought tickets for an event that very obviously overlapped...


The events did NOT obviously overlap. Jason Bell said many times that he didn't expect to get more than 8 teams. As of Wednesday before GenCon, there were only like 4 tickets for the Team Event purchased, according to the GenCon website. So, as of early in the weekend, it didn't look like participation was going to be that high in the Team Event, thus only 3 rounds would be needed. So, until shortly before the event, everyone figured it would be a 3-round tournament.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Stating that I don't think it is appropriate for judges of SWM events at GenCon to participate in potentially conflicting events is NOT harassment. It's barely anything.


But it is your opinion, and apparently one that Jim didn't share, as he was perfectly fine with Tim participating in the Team Event. And Tim even said early on in the event that he knew he would have to drop in order to run the Tile Wars. I saw him talking with Jim a couple times, and I would wager that Jim told him to go ahead and play through round 3, they would keep getting the players registered for the Tile Wars event and such, and when he finished Round 3 of the Team Event, he could bounce over. It was a decision that Jim made, and with the exception of it making things a tad late, there seemed to be no problem at all with the Tile Wars event: hence, why I think Tim called it a success.


I think the short and long of it is.....many people realized that even without the inevitable delays (not a single event all weekend actually started on time, that I'm aware of), it was going to be at least 2 am before the Tile Wars event finished. That is not the fault of any one particular person. But Jim has already said that they'll put TW at a better time slot next year.

Personally, I think the increaes from 10 players to 27 IS a smashing success. So there were a few logistics problems. What event DIDN'T have logisitics trouble? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:11 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
What do you mean? Go one more round than it should have? We had 21 teams. That dictated a 5 round event in order to get down to one person. At the very least, it had to be a 4 round event, because that's what all the other non-Championship events were at GenCon.


I should have explained this better. Due to this sort of issue 3 years ago, it was decided that no event would go more than 4 rounds and that all the people with 4-0 records would receive 4 boosters, and anyone with only a single loss would receive 1 booster. I don't know why it was changed to declare an undefeated team in this event, but that is not the status quo that had been previously established due to heavy griping about time delays in 2006.

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Tim already said once that the Tile Wars event was not delayed because of him and him alone. Over half of the players for Tile Wars were involved in the Team Event. Jim (and Jim alone holds responsibility for this decision, IMO) probably chose to delay the event thinking that 1) Tile Wars usually goes quick, and 2) starting it a tad later would allow many more players to be involved, and 3) WOW the Team Event was more popular than they thought, so it would suck to completely screw people over because they thought they might get to do both.


And I already acknowledged all of these statements. I do not solely blame Tim, nor did I ever solely blame Tim. My only point for posting was to offer a "reality check." At least two people lost $20 because of the way this was handled, and several other people were very frustrated with the way it was run even if they never say so here - that is not what I would call a "smashing success."

As for #3, instead of "screwing over" people who signed up for both the Team Event and Tile Wars, they "screwed over" people who sat around waiting for TW to start and then ended up missing the Championship. It goes back to what I said at the start, this was mismanaged all around.

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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Stating that I don't think it is appropriate for judges of SWM events at GenCon to participate in potentially conflicting events is NOT harassment. It's barely anything.


But it is your opinion, and apparently one that Jim didn't share, as he was perfectly fine with Tim participating in the Team Event. And Tim even said early on in the event that he knew he would have to drop in order to run the Tile Wars. I saw him talking with Jim a couple times, and I would wager that Jim told him to go ahead and play through round 3, they would keep getting the players registered for the Tile Wars event and such, and when he finished Round 3 of the Team Event, he could bounce over. It was a decision that Jim made, and with the exception of it making things a tad late, there seemed to be no problem at all with the Tile Wars event: hence, why I think Tim called it a success.


Okay, I'm not really sure what your point is. You called it harassment that I stated my opinion. I responded to that accusation. Now you're agreeing with me that it's my opinion? LOL

Also, you keep saying "a tad late" or similar statements in regards to the start-time. It's like you're ignoring the reality.

Quote:
I think the short and long of it is.....many people realized that even without the inevitable delays (not a single event all weekend actually started on time, that I'm aware of), it was going to be at least 2 am before the Tile Wars event finished. That is not the fault of any one particular person. But Jim has already said that they'll put TW at a better time slot next year.


That is a start. But the problem isn't Tile Wars, and I'm sorry it's come out looking that way. The problem is that an event was slated at 10 p.m. the night before the Championship, and had players - as well as a judge - participating in something that overlapped, something that should not have at that.

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Personally, I think the increaes from 10 players to 27 IS a smashing success. So there were a few logistics problems. What event DIDN'T have logisitics trouble? :lol:
[/quote]

Yes, the event grew, and that is awesome! But what did we lose?

Okay, I am done talking about this in public. Any further discussion you want to have Aaron, feel free to PM me.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:30 pm 
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I have no problem saying here and now that Tile Wars was a "Smashing Success" and all I did was watch. :P Great Job Tim. I thought all the judges did great Friday night. NO ONE at Pasttimes could have predicted the tournout for both the Team tourny or Tile Wars. Trully, if you want to "blame" someone for not having vision of how many people were in the tournys until the last minute then blame GENCON. From Wed on getting event tix at that place was like looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I mean the entire process was so painful if you were lucky enough to actually get to someone you just bought generic tix cause purchasing specific events through their catalog system was completely a joke. I remember trying to buy my Team ticket and I actually had the code number and the lady couldn't find squat for 5 minutes. Finally when I was about to give up, she tried for the tenth time and it finally worked. I will definately by pre buying in the future cause I wouldn't send my worst enemy into those lines. :P

Honestly, every event at GENCON that I participated in or watched had some kind of drama or adversity to overcome from the late start Thurs AM to the Champs and the fire drill. I never once saw anything other than the pastimes workers doing the best they could with what they had to work with.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I should have explained this better. Due to this sort of issue 3 years ago, it was decided that no event would go more than 4 rounds and that all the people with 4-0 records would receive 4 boosters, and anyone with only a single loss would receive 1 booster. I don't know why it was changed to declare an undefeated team in this event, but that is not the status quo that had been previously established due to heavy griping about time delays in 2006.


Somewhere in the night they decided the winners would get a complete set of IE, thus the change to have one undefeated.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:36 pm 
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Everyone can have an opinion about the level of success I guess.

I'd say it wasn't a "smashing success" as well.

I'll go with "astonishing success". :lol:

I can't believe you guys all were willing to start a tourney at 10pm (let alone whenever it really started) with the championship the next morning. Even without the championship factor, drawing 27 at that hour would have surprised me. I expected 8 or so. Really a testiment to how much people like the format.

I would really have liked to play in both DD and Tile Wars but the timing didn't work out this year. Our next local event is going to be a combo DD/TW event with 30 minute rounds. :)

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:34 pm 
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Yeah, Tim, I loved TW. 27 participants is a great success, no matter what adjective you put before it. :P

TW is still one of my favorite formats. As I said to you on Saturday morning (and in agreement with Joruus, apparently), I'd be much happier with a 30 minute time limit...but those things are part of the learning curve; 45 minutes would probably be good too.

I thought your decision to start after the 3rd round of the Team Tourney was a good decision...and I also didn't think any TW games would be going more than 45 minutes max, so I didn't think it would be all that big a deal. But I didn't take into account the possibility that some players (or just ONE) would be taking forever to play his TW games. I wasn't a judge, and I wasn't in the best (ie, patient) frame of mind, so I had to stay away from the snail player who was taking forever to finish his TW games. I actually don't even know for sure who it was, and that's probably a good thing.

And I agree with your statement about how long it took for the new DCI pairings to show up...all throughout the weekend, it seemed to me (and I could be wrong) that things were moving much more slowly this year than they did last year. I can sympathize with your frustration in that regard, because there were several times after a TW round was completed when I remember wondering how long it took to produce new DCI pairings...up to 20 minutes one time, if I'm not mistaken.

So yeah, that stuff was out of your hands. I hope you don't get discouraged, neither by how things turned out, nor by peoples' reactions to events which were largely out of your control. Depending on its timeslot, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we had far more than 27 players for next year's TW tournament! :)

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:47 pm 
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I think the words, "Smashing Success" are a fine descriptor. I also think the Team event was run very well by Jason Bell, and that any decisions made regarding it and TWs were the right ones. Well done fellas!

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS at GenCon
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:53 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
any decisions made regarding it and TWs were the right ones. Well done fellas!


That's funny seeing as how you are one of the main people who influenced the "four-round max" decision. LMAO

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