logo

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:58 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
Only playtesting can tell. Here's the biggest problem that I can see:

Luminara JK + Barriss Offee + GM Yoda

Essentially, if there is a -4 attack penalty for characters more than 12 squares away, then what you have is a character (Lumi) with a 35 defense in cover 13+ squares away.

Pieces like GMLS and Vader JH suddenly become scarier as well.

The question is, should they BE scarier? I think so.

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:44 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:07 pm
Posts: 811
Good idea Boris. i like the -4 ATK for over 12 squares. i like the -8 for over 12 squares and in cover, but i dont know if that would be too far or not.

_________________
The Wookiee Master

Check us out over at Pojo.com

"It appears the Bothans have rooked us again."
-Obi wan


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:52 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
Unnamed Wookiee
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:17 pm
Posts: 33
Ok, after some playing, thinking on this and having to get up to nursemaid a server I have some concrete thoughts on this.

Limiting to range 12 just causes too many problems. One, Stealth becomes either wasted or necessary for rules rewrite. Any 'fix' should do as little damage to the overall game as possible. 12 range limit would mean you might get one chance to 'use' your Stealth at all, as everyone would or could be within 6 in one action.

The -4 penalty seems to have the most going for it, but i'd change it to a +4 extreme range bonus rather to keep the mechanic consistent (adding and subtracting is asking too much... ;) ) and stackable. Also, Boris mentioned some figures he thought might become scarier. I will add to it Shock Troopers, combined with Felucian Stormtrooper Officers and Squad Cover having a 35 defense in cover assuming the +4 from range greater than 12. IMperial Commander would make that even higher. This would make abilities that replace attacks or turn more attractive (like the Missles the Shock Troopers themselves have) since attacking them successfully means a critical hit. Not sure if that is good or bad, but I lean more towards good because (at least locally) Missles in particular is something of a novelty. The Empire would benefit the most, Seps and Rebels would get some use (i suppose).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:39 pm 
Mandalore
Mandalore
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Posts: 1209
Location: Aboard the Exocarrier Resalute, waiting to free all SWMer's from Tyrnany
I personnally think the design team just needs to develop the melee pieces better.
Clearly the distinction between range and melee is nothign new, one s outright better in most cases then the other. My most famous example of this is the Republic Commandos at 16 points and Bariss Offee at 17. The difference is incredable between the two, but it's not enough to save Bariss, after all, Sev cna deadeye shoot her and cut her in half and gun her down once she's in base to him. Okay that's a COTF example, but it does equate with some of the newer figs as well. Thankfully not everything is equal, and this example is not often actually played out.

_________________
"Rolling a Natural 20, there is no other feeling like it."

Member of the SWMRAC
Member of the Completed till the End and Beyond Club

Come rate my squads on Bloomilk...http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.a ... dalsiandon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:14 am 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:07 pm
Posts: 811
It seemed like things were equaling out and melee was being built better for less, but i dont think that it has been done consistently enough. We get a couple good pieces and then everything else in the set isnt costed well enough. I really hope peter talks with us and get our ideas on the game and where it needs to be improved.

_________________
The Wookiee Master

Check us out over at Pojo.com

"It appears the Bothans have rooked us again."
-Obi wan


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:54 am 
Mandalore
Mandalore
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Posts: 1209
Location: Aboard the Exocarrier Resalute, waiting to free all SWMer's from Tyrnany
Sithdragon13 wrote:
It seemed like things were equaling out and melee was being built better for less, but i dont think that it has been done consistently enough. We get a couple good pieces and then everything else in the set isnt costed well enough. I really hope peter talks with us and get our ideas on the game and where it needs to be improved.


I agree, that would be nice.

_________________
"Rolling a Natural 20, there is no other feeling like it."

Member of the SWMRAC
Member of the Completed till the End and Beyond Club

Come rate my squads on Bloomilk...http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.a ... dalsiandon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:47 am 
Black Sun Thug
Black Sun Thug
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:51 pm
Posts: 60
Location: Maryland
I think the adding/subtracting the defense/attack bonuses would make the game unnecessarily more complicated and possibly lengthen the time it takes to finish a match. Limiting range to a certain numer of squares may also have a simular effect of game legnth. Both are interesting ideas and could be fun to implement in different modes, but I do not think they are right for mainstream SWM.

I liked the idea of increasing melee pieces speed by two. Many melee peieces have force powers and have access to move faster, but there are melee pieces who do not and are especially hindered. I think giving the two extra speed to all melee peieces could easily be implemented by changing the defintion of the Melee SA in the rulebook and/or via errata to something like this: Melee Attack: this charcter may only attack adjacent enemies and this character gains +2 to their natural speed.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:55 am 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:07 pm
Posts: 811
Two squares isnt going to make a difference. If we are talking about increasing speed, it will need to be around 10/12 and attack(18 not attacking), or increase the starting zone to 8-12 squares for melee only.

@Ero - This doesnt have anything to do with you. You just happen to be the one that said it last, but i am so sick and tired of hearing "we cant do that because it would be too complicated." This has been tossed around for years, and i really dont think its a good excuse. its a game that is simple enough to learn. Granted the interactions get complex, but that happens with any game with this many expansions. If it helps the game DO IT! Now honestly, i think we need to make changes that can be passed on easily through future rule books over errata that can only be accessed through the computer.

_________________
The Wookiee Master

Check us out over at Pojo.com

"It appears the Bothans have rooked us again."
-Obi wan


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:28 am 
Black Sun Thug
Black Sun Thug
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:51 pm
Posts: 60
Location: Maryland
I realize it can be frustrating when people dismiss ideas because they to be too complicated. But nonetheless, I stand by what I said that there would be an unnecessary increased complexity added to the game when a decreased attack from shooters would occur from more than 12 squares away. I know most of us are already counting squares frequently, but having to count squares even more frequently will probably increase each round length. Something the community is working on to decrease. I'm not saying that it would work or help to improve the game, but I can see it being problematic and detracting from the game at the same time. Whatever, if any change is made, it should be added to the rulebook. But erratas are just changes made between publishings of new rulebooks. If they published a new rulebook every time an errata had to be made, we would have quite a few different rule books.

I think two squares added to base speed can make quite a bit of difference. That's 8 squares (10 with move faster) and attack, 16 and not attack. For all melee pieces. The lancer and Yobuck especially would benefit from it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:03 am 
Sith Apprentice
Sith Apprentice

Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:05 am
Posts: 269
Figures that are capable of attacking at range without an attack roll would see a definite increase in power. For instance, missiles, Force Grip, and Force Push 4.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:37 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:07 pm
Posts: 811
This is true, which kinda pushes us back to melee getting a head start in set up, or the -4atk at range>12. You would still count, but it wouldnt be as bad as whether or not they can shoot at all.

_________________
The Wookiee Master

Check us out over at Pojo.com

"It appears the Bothans have rooked us again."
-Obi wan


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:39 pm 
Black Sun Thug
Black Sun Thug
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:49 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Southern Illinois
I think I remember reading somewhere in the rule book or a Jedi Councel writeup about range modifiers saying they would not be introduced to keep the game from over complicating and adding more time to game play.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:20 pm 
Sith Apprentice
Sith Apprentice

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 3:30 pm
Posts: 265
Mickey wrote:
I think I remember reading somewhere in the rule book or a Jedi Councel writeup about range modifiers saying they would not be introduced to keep the game from over complicating and adding more time to game play.


From the FAQ:

Range

Q: Why isn't there a range limit or range modifier? Wouldn't that be more realistic than assuming that a blaster pistol and a blaster rifle have the same range?

A: Range limits and range modifiers were intentionally left out of the miniatures game to keep it quick to play and easy to learn. Having to count squares on every single attack slows things down quite a bit!

_________________
STOP IT! STOP IT! CAN'T YOU SEE THIS CONSTANT FIGHTING IS TEARING US ALL APART?-Carl

Things i've said in the past that got dismissed and now are being talked about:
restricting formats by set
Some chosing not to play the game if and when another company picks it up without the current mechanics


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:25 am 
Black Sun Thug
Black Sun Thug
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:49 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Southern Illinois
I thought I read that somewhere when I first started playing without maps. We occasionally use a sheet of plywood and measure everything with a tape measure (1"=1 range, move etc.). We used a house rule of every 12"=-1 to attack.

Things like this are great for house rules, but adding them to DCI play is just slowing the game down. Anytime you add a die roll or extra step to resolve an action you are going to add time to game play. We've already seen that discussed in the thesis on adding saves to the game.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:33 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
Mickey wrote:
I think I remember reading somewhere in the rule book or a Jedi Councel writeup about range modifiers saying they would not be introduced to keep the game from over complicating and adding more time to game play.


Yes I remember that too.

So instead of getting range modifiers that add time, we get huge defense bonuses, super-stealth/cloak, and Evade.

LOL

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:45 am 
Black Sun Thug
Black Sun Thug
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:49 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Southern Illinois
I understand your pain, but we don't control the game rules. They have a product to sell and I guess they figured they had to come up with new skills each set. I think they would have been fine with just adding new uniques myself.

I think I heard at one time shooters were too powerful. I can see why evade was added and some of the other skills to counter. I think they overcountered. I think part of the problem is these skills are added to shooters and not often enough to melee pieces.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:51 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
Yeah, in the case of Evade, General Wedge wasn't too bad, because the majority of solid NR pieces were melee. But with Rieekan, most of the good Rebel pieces are shooters/cannons, so the naturally people are going to pair the awesome commander with the awesome pieces. I was comfortable with where the game was in terms of Evade after KOTOR and CW. Rieekan has certainly upset that balance a bit. I'm looking forward to something that can counter it.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:49 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
LoboStele wrote:
Yeah, in the case of Evade, General Wedge wasn't too bad, because the majority of solid NR pieces were melee. But with Rieekan, most of the good Rebel pieces are shooters/cannons, so the naturally people are going to pair the awesome commander with the awesome pieces. I was comfortable with where the game was in terms of Evade after KOTOR and CW. Rieekan has certainly upset that balance a bit. I'm looking forward to something that can counter it.


Crack Shot is probably coming. Damage that cannot be prevented.

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:48 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:07 pm
Posts: 811
True, and in that case melee takes the biggest hit again and we are back to square one.

_________________
The Wookiee Master

Check us out over at Pojo.com

"It appears the Bothans have rooked us again."
-Obi wan


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:02 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
Sithdragon13 wrote:
True, and in that case melee takes the biggest hit again and we are back to square one.


Well....Would be great if it only worked against Special Abilities, but Force Powers could still be used against it. I know that's not how Crack Gunner works though. So we'll see.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights style by Scott Stubblefield